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SWTOR should've been a RPG


FeelFlow

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...Essentially, SWTOR should've been the successor to KOTOR.

 

Hindsight is always a great thing and it's easy to see why SWTOR was made as an MMO. When it was started, WoW was booming and making tonnes of cash per month. EA wanted their own WoW, I'm sure!

 

Whatever the case, it now is very clear that the game would've been far better as an RPG launching with:

 

Two player characters Sith and Jedi with a choice if you want to go down either the Knight/Warrior or Consular/Inquisitor paths (much like KOTOR).

 

Each side would have the choice of two different stories (i.e. essentially the x4 Jedi/Sith stories that we have in-game) each depending on what path you choose.

 

Probably less incidental quests i.e. just the class quests and the main planet story thread quests.

 

The current Flashpoints would be like some of the class quest instances.

 

Probably less planets (an RPG has less $ development budget) and more a linear story-driven scripted progression through them with real choices and consequences.

 

If the game went well, then extra class stories (Smuggler & Bounty Hunter) and extensions to your class quests.

 

I'm saying this as the story is bar far the best part of the game. I don't think that SWTOR ever got credit for it and sadly - in retrospect - the story can't shine in an MMO. I think it would've done in an RPG.

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The reason why this game is loosing subs is because they focused too much on story and not enough on other elements that MMO's have (emotes, intractable objects, mini games, exploration). Not to mention the amount of bugs (some of which has been since BETA), and servers that keeps crashing and lagging people off the game world.

 

EA / BioWare believe that people are poor and the sole reason why they lost people, but this is not the case. Your game is lacking soul. Your customer service is horrible and you only talk once it has been approved by the PR department.

Edited by siegedeluxe
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The reason why this game is loosing subs is because they focused too much on story and not enough on other elements that MMO's have (emotes, intractable objects, mini games, exploration). Not to mention the amount of bugs (some of which has been since BETA), and servers that keeps crashing and lagging people off the game world.

 

I guess what I mean though is the one amazing thing about the game is the plot and stories. I guess without those you have WoW in 2009 with Lightsabers i.e. it's just another MMO.

 

It's really sad to think that as an RPG, SWTOR would've been up there with DA:Origins, Mass Effect and of course the original KOTOR game.

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I guess what I mean though is the one amazing thing about the game is the plot and stories. I guess without those you have WoW in 2009 with Lightsabers i.e. it's just another MMO.

 

It's really sad to think that as an RPG, SWTOR would've been up there with DA:Origins, Mass Effect and of course the original KOTOR game.

 

I would call Mass Effect more of a action game with some story elements, DA:O sucked IMO but thats only my opinion. For me it was just a butchered watered down stupidier abomination version of great classics such as Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate series and Icewind Dale series. Mass Effect always also for me sucked in the story compartment and I'm glad that SWTOR though cliché is not as badly cliché as the Mass Effect games.

 

Back to the topic I guess that you what you meant was that the game should be a single player RPG because TOR is a RPG a MMORPG. Personally I honestly thing that the single player RPG thing is starting to kinda die out, just look at both Dragon Age and Mass Effect they are action games and there is very little RPG in them.

Old RPGs was about reading or listening and exploring way more then fightning, acutally fighting was very often a very small portion of the games. From a modern perspective I think they managed to get a good combination of both in TOR.

 

Lack in MMORPG department? What features do you think that TOR lacks? are you comparing only to WoW because WoW is not the standard of MMORPGs although it has it success much because it combined all good features from games like UO, EQ, Meridian etc and built upon them doesn't magically make WoW everyones favorite game.

So what features do you think is lacking here? WoWs features as in you want a WoW in space or do you mean other features like from EvE or Asian styled MMORPGs or old school MMORPG features?

 

Share your ideas

 

Saying "It lacks as a MMORPG" tells us nothing because there is no default MMORPG style. There are those that were built upon old D&D paper and pen styled games and there are niché MMORPGS and there are superhero MMORPGS and there are sci-fi MMORPGS and so on and so on.

 

You have to be a little more specific on what you think TOR is lacking. Saying that it lacks new content is one thing but just randomly saying that "it lacks" tells us nothing. ATM the endgame in TOR is the exactly same as it is in WoW; a gear grind.

 

So what features do you want?

Edited by redsovereign
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The reason why this game is loosing subs...
The reason this game has lost so many subs is because of the sheer amount of MMOs out right now. None of them are bad but, none of them are great either, and it's spreading the populations among all of them pretty thin. No game out right now has a monster amount of subs. Edited by Couver
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I would call Mass Effect more of a action game with some story elements, DA:O sucked IMO but thats only my opinion. For me it was just a butchered watered down stupidier abomination version of great classics such as Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate series and Icewind Dale series. Mass Effect always also for me sucked in the story compartment and I'm glad that SWTOR though cliché is not as badly cliché as the Mass Effect games.

 

Back to the topic I guess that you what you meant was that the game should be a single player RPG because TOR is a RPG a MMORPG. Personally I honestly thing that the single player RPG thing is starting to kinda die out, just look at both Dragon Age and Mass Effect they are action games and there is very little RPG in them.

Old RPGs was about reading or listening and exploring way more then fightning, acutally fighting was very often a very small portion of the games. From a modern perspective I think they managed to get a good combination of both in TOR.

 

Lack in MMORPG department? What features do you think that TOR lacks? are you comparing only to WoW because WoW is not the standard of MMORPGs although it has it success much because it combined all good features from games like UO, EQ, Meridian etc and built upon them doesn't magically make WoW everyones favorite game.

So what features do you think is lacking here? WoWs features as in you want a WoW in space or do you mean other features like from EvE or Asian styled MMORPGs or old school MMORPG features?

 

Share your ideas

 

What separates SWTOR from WoW is that it's about orcs and elves. What makes wow so nice to play is the features it has and how stable the game is compared to SWTOR. I stopped playing wow last week because blizzard mentality is "raid or die". I might continue playing WoW if they implemented 10 mans in LFR WITHOUT the nerfs. Some people, like me, got weird work hours and can't dedicate themselves to a guild, which mostly raid at hours when I work.

 

If they added some of the features that wow has and fix the mirage of bugs and performance issues (client and server), I would be pretty happy overall. However, I would like to see more emotes, mini games like pazaak and addons. It's small things like these that kept me hooked to wow, and probably would hook me more to swtor.

 

But the ultimate killer for me is the class story. If they don't have any plans to expand this then I'm going to stop playing because that is what I enjoy the most in this game.

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The reason why this game is loosing subs is because they focused too much on story

 

Very incorrect. The story held the attention of many, many people I know that otherwise rarely get out of the starting areas in MMO. These people subscribed for months leveling multiple characters in a genre that otherwise holds no interest for them. However, once they experienced all they cared to experience, and because the stories weren't being expanded, they left.

 

A lot of them even dabbled in the endgame, many of them for the first time ever. But without the thing that hooked them in the first place, without a visible commitment to keep progressing the story, they left. And if this was true of my gaming circle, I can't imagine how many other similar situations occurred.

Edited by CelCawdro
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I would call Mass Effect more of a action game with some story elements, DA:O sucked IMO but thats only my opinion. For me it was just a butchered watered down stupidier abomination version of great classics such as Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate series and Icewind Dale series. Mass Effect always also for me sucked in the story compartment and I'm glad that SWTOR though cliché is not as badly cliché as the Mass Effect games.

 

Back to the topic I guess that you what you meant was that the game should be a single player RPG because TOR is a RPG a MMORPG. Personally I honestly thing that the single player RPG thing is starting to kinda die out, just look at both Dragon Age and Mass Effect they are action games and there is very little RPG in them.

Old RPGs was about reading or listening and exploring way more then fightning, acutally fighting was very often a very small portion of the games. From a modern perspective I think they managed to get a good combination of both in TOR.

 

Lack in MMORPG department? What features do you think that TOR lacks? are you comparing only to WoW because WoW is not the standard of MMORPGs although it has it success much because it combined all good features from games like UO, EQ, Meridian etc and built upon them doesn't magically make WoW everyones favorite game.

So what features do you think is lacking here? WoWs features as in you want a WoW in space or do you mean other features like from EvE or Asian styled MMORPGs or old school MMORPG features?

 

Share your ideas

 

Saying "It lacks as a MMORPG" tells us nothing because there is no default MMORPG style. There are those that were built upon old D&D paper and pen styled games and there are niché MMORPGS and there are superhero MMORPGS and there are sci-fi MMORPGS and so on and so on.

 

You have to be a little more specific on what you think TOR is lacking. Saying that it lacks new content is one thing but just randomly saying that "it lacks" tells us nothing. ATM the endgame in TOR is the exactly same as it is in WoW; a gear grind.

 

So what features do you want?

 

Thanks for the post!

 

OK, I essentially mean an enhanced version of KOTOR:

 

Story driven

I think that the need to keep the story part of an MMO meant that BW couldn't script the stories or change their direction, significantly. In that respect, there are so many moments where you say or do something not very nice/good and it's pretty much forgotten by the next sentence.

 

Having a single player game would've allowed for jaw-dropping plot changing experiences i.e. kill/save someone, choose an action etc. which would then completely change the direction of the game.

 

It would've enabled highly scripted set-pieces too i.e. what we know as Flash Points now could've been made crucial to your class story.

 

Companion classes could've been bigger and interwoven with the class (and stories from each planet). Again, what you did to your companions could have had significant consequences in the game (i.e. like KOTOR).

 

Combat

I take your point re. Mass Effect. Well a game has got to be fun. I was never a fan of the paused combat in KOTOR - perhaps what we have now in the game i.e. real time combat (but probably simpler classes and skill trees i.e. it's not an MMO in this alternate reality).

 

So I guess in the end I mean KOTOR style story mixed with real time MMO style combat.

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So I guess in the end I mean KOTOR style story mixed with real time MMO style combat.

 

Isn't that precisely what we got at release?

 

Also, the role of companions in this game is significantly larger than in KotOR. That being said, some of the more drastic elements of SW:TOR's story in beta (such as killing companions) were dropped due to feedback.

Edited by CelCawdro
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The reason this game has lost so many subs is because of the sheer amount of MMOs out right now. None of them are bad but, none of them are great either, and it's spreading the populations among all of them pretty thin. No game out right now has a monster amount of subs.

 

Have you lived under a rock these past 8 years? WoW has the must subscribers in the entire mmo scene (Paying customers, runescape not included).

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I think of swtor as an RPG with other people.

 

I can quest on my own and ignore everyone I want. I can also group up for flashpoints and heroics and I really enjoy those.

 

Once I have my 12 lvl 50, im gone. (Might come back for 4 more lvl 50s but that will be it).

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Isn't that precisely what we got at release?

 

Also, the role of companions in this game is significantly larger than in KotOR. That being said, some of the more drastic elements of SW:TOR's story in beta (such as killing companions) were dropped due to feedback.

 

Not really. I haven't played all of the stories but I haven't seen a point yet where what you do significantly changes the game story. You might have bits where it's 'Oh no, that's not nice/good!' But then that is soon forgotten. Presumably because it would've been too hard to track multiple plot lines with 8 stories.

 

I didn't know that about the companions in beta. Interesting. Shame that BW pulled that.

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The reason this game has lost so many subs is because of the sheer amount of MMOs out right now. None of them are bad but, none of them are great either, and it's spreading the populations among all of them pretty thin. No game out right now has a monster amount of subs.

 

^This

 

We also have to contend with the "new" factor and the small attention span gamers have due to how games are marketed.

 

Countless games my friends have told me are going to be great and they hop to them, only to see them leave in droves for the "next great thing" that is just the same thing over again. I actually put my foot down on this matter and told them I will not be wasting money on games I just played with a different title.

 

You can blame the software companies for this, but that is because they know the gaming community is filled with enough people dumb enough to keep falling for this trap.

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Have you lived under a rock these past 8 years? WoW has the must subscribers in the entire mmo scene (Paying customers, runescape not included).

 

Most of WoW's success is due to how huge it is/was in Asia. It took a couple years before it really took off in the west, and you should never take WoW into account to begin with. It's so damn huge that it's basically an anomaly all unto itself, nothing else will ever come close. The pre-existing franchise and huge popularity of Warcraft (both overseas and here) are what allowed it to reach such bizzare numbers anyway.

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Not really. I haven't played all of the stories but I haven't seen a point yet where what you do significantly changes the game story. You might have bits where it's 'Oh no, that's not nice/good!' But then that is soon forgotten. Presumably because it would've been too hard to track multiple plot lines with 8 stories.

 

I didn't know that about the companions in beta. Interesting. Shame that BW pulled that.

 

BioWare is good at providing the illusion of choice. They did it in KotOR, and they're doing it here. We're all playing the same narrative - it's how that narrative plays out that differs. Nothing significantly changed the game story in KotOR, either.

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One of the nice thing in later wow (havent tried pandaria) was the phased events. Could easily have been done in swtor too. after finishing planetary questline you would phase to "planet2" where bonus quests would be. It helped moving the story forward in the areas.

 

And yes. SWTOR miss some mmo features.. it´s small things that you might not notice at first, but when you log into GW2 ex. the world feels more alive. It´s the tiny things like when you walk onto a farmground and the chickens go cluck cluck. It´s too bad i like swtor better. Much of the fluff things is just done better in other mmo´s. And lets face it. mmo´s needs loads of fluff. It´s not like a singleplayer game you play once, if it´s good you might replay a few times. People spend so much more time in a mmo that more fluff just pays off.

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BioWare is good at providing the illusion of choice. They did it in KotOR, and they're doing it here. We're all playing the same narrative - it's how that narrative plays out that differs. Nothing significantly changed the game story in KotOR, either.

 

OK fair point. Obviously BW couldn't produce a game where throughout you could completely change the direction that it went in i.e. all roads lead to a certain encounter 2/3 of the way through KOTOR.

 

EDIT: As it would be too expensive to provide multiple storylines making different events spin off in different directions. END EDIT.

 

I seem to remember that you could change the game significantly at the end if you went dark-side. I mean things like that.

Edited by FeelFlow
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One of the nice thing in later wow (havent tried pandaria) was the phased events. Could easily have been done in swtor too. after finishing planetary questline you would phase to "planet2" where bonus quests would be. It helped moving the story forward in the areas.

 

And yes. SWTOR miss some mmo features.. it´s small things that you might not notice at first, but when you log into GW2 ex. the world feels more alive. It´s the tiny things like when you walk onto a farmground and the chickens go cluck cluck. It´s too bad i like swtor better. Much of the fluff things is just done better in other mmo´s. And lets face it. mmo´s needs loads of fluff. It´s not like a singleplayer game you play once, if it´s good you might replay a few times. People spend so much more time in a mmo that more fluff just pays off.

 

Yeah and SWTOR lacks that fluff. The single player feature dominates almost everything else in this game, which is REALLY BAD.

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Yeah and SWTOR lacks that fluff. The single player feature dominates almost everything else in this game, which is REALLY BAD.

 

It's really interesting that you get two really different perspectives on the game from the MMO and RPG crowd.

 

Essentially, I think that BW thought that they could marry both elements but (arguably) weren't able to. It was too big an undertaking in the end, I bet. The parts just wouldn't mesh together properly leaving a game that didn't satisfy both MMO and RPG fans.

 

I still love the stories in the game though - however, you can see what it could've been if it had been a true successor to KOTOR. Ah well.

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Full disclosure: I never played a Bioware single player game.

 

I think the storyline is great, but the gameplay sucks. It's too disjointed. I can't be given an epic story and then be told to go kill 10 rats. It just doesn't work. Was the gameplay in KOTOR compelling and exciting or was it the same garbage? How about the other Bioware games?

 

I can go play Deus Ex: Human Revolution that has a great story and great gameplay. As a single player game, TOR fails. Good story alone does not make a good video game.

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What separates SWTOR from WoW is that it's about orcs and elves. What makes wow so nice to play is the features it has and how stable the game is compared to SWTOR. I stopped playing wow last week because blizzard mentality is "raid or die". I might continue playing WoW if they implemented 10 mans in LFR WITHOUT the nerfs. Some people, like me, got weird work hours and can't dedicate themselves to a guild, which mostly raid at hours when I work.

 

If they added some of the features that wow has and fix the mirage of bugs and performance issues (client and server), I would be pretty happy overall. However, I would like to see more emotes, mini games like pazaak and addons. It's small things like these that kept me hooked to wow, and probably would hook me more to swtor.

 

But the ultimate killer for me is the class story. If they don't have any plans to expand this then I'm going to stop playing because that is what I enjoy the most in this game.

 

I disagree, I tried WoW again when MOP came out and damn man... that game did not age well... Blizz trying to do thing with it that the engine was never supposed to do.. its just a ******** of **** nowadays and I don't mind the pandas and the cutesy stuf.

 

"If they added some of the features that wow has" again what is this? What WoW has is 2 things; Really good endgame pvp and PvE gear tier raids. Thats it!

 

Do you want the pokemon game?

 

"mini games like pazaak and addons." would be nice but for how long and for how many? I also would love some things of my own added but I realize that its things that not everyone want to see and when development costs a huge jack of money you have to add things that ppl will make use of.

 

Pazaak and stuf like housing and that is just 2 things; 1 fluff content to delay the game 2 grind (esp houses).

 

So if they add minigames then you would be happy with TOR?

 

I'd say that the most important things is to do what you typed in your post: fix the bugs and the server stability a.k.a lag.

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Thanks for the post!

 

OK, I essentially mean an enhanced version of KOTOR:

 

Story driven

I think that the need to keep the story part of an MMO meant that BW couldn't script the stories or change their direction, significantly. In that respect, there are so many moments where you say or do something not very nice/good and it's pretty much forgotten by the next sentence.

 

Having a single player game would've allowed for jaw-dropping plot changing experiences i.e. kill/save someone, choose an action etc. which would then completely change the direction of the game.

 

It would've enabled highly scripted set-pieces too i.e. what we know as Flash Points now could've been made crucial to your class story.

 

Companion classes could've been bigger and interwoven with the class (and stories from each planet). Again, what you did to your companions could have had significant consequences in the game (i.e. like KOTOR).

 

Combat

I take your point re. Mass Effect. Well a game has got to be fun. I was never a fan of the paused combat in KOTOR - perhaps what we have now in the game i.e. real time combat (but probably simpler classes and skill trees i.e. it's not an MMO in this alternate reality).

 

So I guess in the end I mean KOTOR style story mixed with real time MMO style combat.

 

Agree with a lot of the things you talk about in your post however you could for example kill off you companions in the beta, however ofc all the kiddos killed off all their companions and then complained and QQed that they had no companions left so Bioware changed it.

 

But yes I agree with that in esp some story lines there is a continuity problem with your actions not having enough impact of what happens next.

 

Personally I like that TOR is a mmorpg because having other ppl running around that I can interact with makes the game feel more alive to me, that was my problem with KOTOR; when you were done you were done and since u were the only living being around the areas became very static.

 

Same problem in Mass Effect, I think that Bethesda is on a good way of fixing it with Skyrim but tavernas still need random drunks and more dancing, stuf going on for it to feel alive. Everyone just kinda sits around not hitting on each other or anything.

There was a awesome tavern mod for Morrowind were ppl were dancing, playing instruments, ppl were rumbling around with a custom "drunk walk". It was awesome and it really felt like a real fantasy taverna. Chaotic

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