A few things to point out.

 

First, as to whether it was common knowledge that Kreia, Arren Kae or Traya (whichever you want to call her), was Revan's master. My belief is that it is not. This may be common knowledge to the Jedi but Revan may not have shared this information with many since the Exile did not know before meeting Kreia. And we know that Meetra Surik and Revan were close. She was one of Revan's generals in the Mandalorian wars. With that thought, people are NOT going to follow Kreia just because she was Revan's master if this was nothing something shared outside of Jedi circles. As for Kreia herself, she had a disdain for those who were not force sensitives. More on that later.

 

Secondly, Kreia herself admitted she was not a natural born leader like Revan was. We also never get a clue of the armies she commands. Remember, Kreia was a historian, a librarian who fell to the dark side because of the knowledge she gathered but also because she desired to do more. She desired to take the stance that Revan had which is what led to her ostracized from the Jedi Order. But her armies did not come until after the she joined forces with the Sith triumvirate and began to train assassins at the Trayus academy she founded AFTER the Jedi civil war. So her armies up until then were non existent.

 

Now if we are pitting the armies they held during that era against each other it becomes trickier. Kreia's army came after the Jedi Civil war. Revan's were during and before. So now we have Kreia commanding her Sith assassins and Revan commanding the Republic and then his Sith that he converted to his cause during the Mandalorian wars. If this is the case then Revan wins. If not then we dispose of this part of the argument.

 

Now assuming the above paragraph is omitted because of timeline eras, then Kreia has no army to speak of. She never held an army until she began to train them AFTER Revan's capture by the Jedi. At this point Malak is in control of the Sith Empire and Kreia is still training her assassins in secret. So now, Kreia has no real powerbase, just the force and MAYBE a few allies. All cards at this point are stacked in Revans favor.

 

So now lets strip them of their armies. In a lightsaber duel it would be a tough fight but I would give it to Revan. Even Kreia was in awe of his prowess in battle and connection the force. Kreia does have a powerful connection to the Force in that she can heal her wounds, go into stasis to preserve her strength, and use the force offensively. But so can Revan and he his more of a blademaster than Kreia ever was.

 

In the end, I have to give it to Revan. The student becomes the Master.

^^ I like this guy.

This is a battle that Revan can't win. Traya has much more going for than a few assassins and some Sith. And just because she doesn't care for technology and all that doesn't mean she wont use it. Remember that she used the Force even though she despised it.

 

As for the advantages of the assassins. They provide an incredible edge. A group of assassins could take out the entire crew of a Hammerhead-class vessel with ease. The utility of these assassins allows them to move across the galaxy with ease and sneak aboard Republic ships with ease. While Revan can create ways to prevent this, he can't ensure that it wont happen. They can board supply ships heading for Republic ships, they can board shuttles carrying military soldiers. Eventually, they will spread across the Republic fleet. Traya would be wise, which she is, to put the assassins on a cease fire until they are all in position. With a single order, Traya could devastate the Republic fleet quickly and effectively.

 

Not only that, but Traya can also manipulate people with the Dark Side. Conventional conversion methods may not be effective against Revan's men, but the Dark Side is a powerful tool against the mind. Remember how easily Kreia broke through Atton's defenses and dug into his mind. He was trained to resist such techniques and she was hardly troubled by it. An untrained military officer would be easy to convert for a Sith.

You make a fine point about Traya's "breaking through Atton's defenses." But she can not be everywhere at once.

So now lets strip them of their armies. In a lightsaber duel it would be a tough fight but I would give it to Revan. Even Kreia was in awe of his prowess in battle and connection the force. Kreia does have a powerful connection to the Force in that she can heal her wounds, go into stasis to preserve her strength, and use the force offensively. But so can Revan and he his more of a blademaster than Kreia ever was.

 

In the end, I have to give it to Revan. The student becomes the Master.

You underestimate Traya severly. She killed three Jedi Masters instantly with a combination of Sever Force and Force Drain. What's to stop her from doing so to Revan?

Traya was incredibly powerful with the Force. Far more powerful than Jedi Knight Revan.

You make a fine point about Traya's "breaking through Atton's defenses." But she can not be everywhere at once.

No she can't, but then again, Revan can't either. And those officers not around Revan are easy prey.

You underestimate Traya severly. She killed three Jedi Masters instantly with a combination of Sever Force and Force Drain. What's to stop her from doing so to Revan?

 

Traya was incredibly powerful with the Force. Far more powerful than Jedi Knight Revan.

Maybe so, but that's not what Kreia would say. She implied that Revan was greater then she was.

Maybe so, but that's not what Kreia would say. She implied that Revan was greater then she was.

Indeed she did, but I believe that she was referring to the Revan that defeated Malak and saved the galaxy. Jedi Knight Revan is at a severe disadvantage.

Indeed she did, but I believe that she was referring to the Revan that defeated Malak and saved the galaxy. Jedi Knight Revan is at a severe disadvantage.

Wasn't the last time she saw him before he went off into the unkown regions the first time? She hadn't seen the Revan that defeated Malak.

Wasn't the last time she saw him before he went off into the unkown regions the first time? She hadn't seen the Revan that defeated Malak.

I'm not sure on that.

I don't think that matters as that Traya has the power to end the fight before it begins.

I'm not sure on that.

 

I don't think that matters as that Traya has the power to end the fight before it begins.

Perhaps. Doesn't mean she would use it, she is a talker.

Perhaps. Doesn't mean she would use it, she is a talker.

True, but that could defeat Revan as well.

We've settled on the fact that such a battle between the two would take place on Malachor. The Dark energies, combined with Traya's manipulation skills, would be Revan's downfall. He would fall to the Dark Side and Traya would win.

In a battle between the two, even though Traya says Revan is better, I have to give it to her. She's incredibly powerful in the Force, and she has several incredibly powerful Force techniques at her disposal. Force Drain and Sever Force are the biggest that come into play. These are the same powers that killed the three masters on Dantooine.

You underestimate Traya severly. She killed three Jedi Masters instantly with a combination of Sever Force and Force Drain. What's to stop her from doing so to Revan?

 

Traya was incredibly powerful with the Force. Far more powerful than Jedi Knight Revan.

Revan was not as arrogant as those Jedi Masters. They underestimated her. Revan would not have made that mistake. When the Jedi Masters saw her they recognized the dark side in her and tried to attack but their defenses were down otherwise sever force would never have worked on Master's who held the knowledge they held. Revan trained under Kreia. But not only Kreia he trained under a Jedi who was a blademaster, a lorekeeper and others. He was able to apply what he learned in the field and not just in practice.

He also sought knowledge. Knowledge is what Kreia has to go on since she was not the martial expert that Revan was. But he sought knowledge to augment his fighting skills. We have no idea of the treasure trove of knowledge and lore he had up until the point when he first met the emperor. We only know that his search would have started way before he sought out this empire while he was still a Jedi Knight and General of the Republic. So with that knowledge he has gained so far who is to say what techniques he knows or doesn't know to be useful in combat. We know what Kreia knows to an extent but now what Revan knows and that's where Revan holds his the element of surprise.

Perhaps. Doesn't mean she would use it, she is a talker.

Kraia corrupts Revan and takes him as her apprentice ( its a trap ) then he kills her and takes her place as master.

Revan was not as arrogant as those Jedi Masters. They underestimated her. Revan would not have made that mistake. When the Jedi Masters saw her they recognized the dark side in her and tried to attack but their defenses were down otherwise sever force would never have worked on Master's who held the knowledge they held. Revan trained under Kreia. But not only Kreia he trained under a Jedi who was a blademaster, a lorekeeper and others. He was able to apply what he learned in the field and not just in practice.

 

He also sought knowledge. Knowledge is what Kreia has to go on since she was not the martial expert that Revan was. But he sought knowledge to augment his fighting skills. We have no idea of the treasure trove of knowledge and lore he had up until the point when he first met the emperor. We only know that his search would have started way before he sought out this empire while he was still a Jedi Knight and General of the Republic. So with that knowledge he has gained so far who is to say what techniques he knows or doesn't know to be useful in combat. We know what Kreia knows to an extent but now what Revan knows and that's where Revan holds his the element of surprise.

Well now we're arguing unknowns. I've made it clear in the past that we can't argue unknowns. We make our case with their canon abilities. In this sense, Traya has far more powerful abilities than Revan. Revan is not listed as having knowledge of resisting Sever Force and Force Drain, so we don't list this as an ability he has.

We don't argue with unknowns, we make our case based on what we know about the characters. With this in mind, Jedi Knight Revan is no match for Darth Traya.

Well now we're arguing unknowns. I've made it clear in the past that we can't argue unknowns. We make our case with their canon abilities. In this sense, Traya has far more powerful abilities than Revan. Revan is not listed as having knowledge of resisting Sever Force and Force Drain, so we don't list this as an ability he has.

 

We don't argue with unknowns, we make our case based on what we know about the characters. With this in mind, Jedi Knight Revan is no match for Darth Traya.

Again, that's not what Kreia says.

True, but that could defeat Revan as well.

 

We've settled on the fact that such a battle between the two would take place on Malachor. The Dark energies, combined with Traya's manipulation skills, would be Revan's downfall. He would fall to the Dark Side and Traya would win.

And why is that? Why would Revan willingly go to Malachor when he could just blow it up from space? This is post Shadow Generator Malahcor right? He would obviously sense the Dark Side energies and not be foolish enough to go there, at least, not without a plan.

Again, that's not what Kreia says.

Very true, but she may be wrong.

Traya has some of the most powerful abilities in existence. Compare these to Jedi Knight Revan's abilities and you can see that Traya would win.

And why is that? Why would Revan willingly go to Malachor when he could just blow it up from space? This is post Shadow Generator Malahcor right? He would obviously sense the Dark Side energies and not be foolish enough to go there, at least, not without a plan.

Post Mandalorian Wars Malachor poses a dangerous threat to Starships so he can't just blow it up.

There's only so much you can do against a Nexus of Dark Side energies.

Post Mandalorian Wars Malachor poses a dangerous threat to Starships so he can't just blow it up.

 

There's only so much you can do against a Nexus of Dark Side energies.

Then he could just use the MSG again couldn't he? Didn't he have it's creator with him at that point?

He would probably figure it out, the first time it got to him because he wasn't prepared.

Why are we even debating Jedi Knight Revan? Aren't they supposed to be at the height of their power? Revan was far more powerful (both personally and with his power base) as a Sith.

It is Revan in control of the Republic fleet at the time of the Mandalorian Wars. This is when he is a Jedi Knight.

Then he could just use the MSG again couldn't he? Didn't he have it's creator with him at that point?

 

 

He would probably figure it out, the first time it got to him because he wasn't prepared.

One of the rules is no superweapons, so no MSG.

One of the rules is no superweapons, so no MSG.

Doh. Right, forgot.

Doh. Right, forgot.

Now there is a way for Revan to win this. But it would require a lot of things to line up perfectly.

First, Revan has to be able to quickly counter the Sith Assassins after their first strike. This is possible, but nothing is ever certain. If he can at least severely limit the Assassins capabilities, he can keep his fleet in shape.

Second, he has to keep his soldiers up to par psychologically. The threat of the Assassins still remains, which can cause psychological issues for the men. It is quite possible for Revan to keep his men sane.

Third, he has to take out the Ravager. The Ravager is Traya's greatest military weapon. If Revan can trap the Ravager and destroy it, he gains a huge step towards victory.

Fourth, he has to ensure the loyalty of his men. This is nearly impossible. Traya can use the Dark Side to manipulate a large faction of Revan's top officials over to her side, or even turn Revan's allies against him. If Revan can keep his men loyal, he takes another step towards victory.

Fifth, He needs the forces to take Malachor. This is not easy. The number of Sith at the Academy will not easily fall. If he can rally the necessary forces to attack Malachor, he can win.

Sixth, he has to be able to beat Traya. Again, not easy, almost impossible. In an all-out battle, Traya gets the benefit of Malachor's Dark energies in addition to her ability to Sever Force and drain Force. If Revan can beat her, it will be through lightsaber skill. But that didn't save Kavar, who is a better duelist than Traya in my opinion. Fighting Traya is an uphill battle and almost impossible to win.

Perhaps. Doesn't mean she would use it, she is a talker.

wat? What kind of argument is this?

She is a teacher, so yes, she does talk, but she does more than talk, she's not some overblown windbag, she built the sith Triumverate, put two of the most powerful perversions of nature under her command and when they overthrew her, as all Sith do, she humbled them right back down with the crew of a small stock freighter. She used every bit of power available to her but not without reason, she did not wantonly drain planets like Nihilus which ultimately was HIS downfall. She did not just wantonly sever every force-user from the force, that would give up her abilities of discression and deception.