Rule 7 dictates that the death only may occur AFTER the bosskill, disregarding any adds.

It's a complicated rule, one which I just elaborated much more clearly on what I think is a fair gauge of raid fights. If it sounds hazy, I can go for some rewording.

I said in my first post some might not have been (legit), but they were past enrage when I died which was why I was unsure.

Ya, if you can take the time to go through your parses and ensure they comply with the rules, that will make my maintenance of this thread that much easier and that's how I'd like things.

Any questions, clarification requests welcome.

Why was I placed lower on Thrasher and Dread Guards when I had more DPS?

Unfortunately I am not an infallible automaton (not always anyway heh).

But wait - I thought I did in fact make a mistake but your parse ended in a death, not a kill, thus it is wholly invalid.

So again, please read the rules and tidy up your parses (in a legit way) before posting.

thx

Will look to catch up with paowee's snazz factor and more neatly format the post#1 in a few days when I get more time

7) No mid-fight deaths (resulting in shortened and thus skewed parse). If you die during the course of the fight and are rezzed, parse is considered invalid (must be full length from start of boss pull to boss death). One caveat to this rule - You may remove the exit/enter combat lines between your death and rez to display a full length fight, and if you die at the end, you may edit log to contain the 'extra space' after your death until boss death (if you do this, bear in mind that a corroborating fight duration parse from a guildmate may be requested - you are to use the full fight duration supplied by your guildmate who survived through boss death). This rule may change, but seems fair enough.

I would like some feedback on this expanded rule.

It's definitely complicated, but I think these edits comply with what I overall think is a 'legit kill parse' - tougher to edit and tougher to validate, but as a DPS I do know that sometimes you will do everything you can and still die within the last 5 seconds of the fight when your guild goes on to kill it.

I think those instances should be considered for a leaderboard (with that extra empty time added at end, reducing your actual dps).

Interested to hear any thoughts on it though. It's certainly much simpler to just say 'no deaths whatsoever' but I do think that could exclude a high number of record parses in NiM.

8-man TTFB

Kephess

Mayoo - Les gardiens d'anachore - Sentinel watchman- 36/8/2 - 3715.24

Log:http://www.torparse.com/a/375592

8-man S&V

Titan 6

Mayoo - Les gardiens d'anachore - Sentinel combat- 5-36-5 2554.75

Log: http://www.torparse.com/a/375607

8-man

Tianna - Seven Stuck - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7

Titan 6 Nightmare 2863.45 DPS

Trasher Nightmare 2424.35 DPS

Cartel Warlords Nightmare 2802.67 DPS

Haven't killed more than half of the bosses yet, but here are parses of those I have killed (minus Kephess as I can't seem to find a log from that fight; must've accidentally got deleted). Here goes:

Terror From Beyond 8-man:

Writhing Horror

Rhuarc - Titans - Gunslinger - Saboteur - 7/36/3 - 3815

Log: http://www.torparse.com/a/352638/2/0/Damage+Dealt

Dread Guards

Rhuarc - Titans - Gunslinger - Sharpshooter - 36/3/7 - 2914

Log: http://www.torparse.com/a/376389/3/0/Damage+Dealt

Operator IX

Rhuarc - Titans - Gunslinger - Sharpshooter - 36/3/7 - 2324

http://www.torparse.com/a/376384/10/0/Damage+Dealt

Scum & Villainy 8-man:

Dash'roode

Rhuarc - Titans - Gunslinger - Saboteur - 5/36/5 - 3777

Log: http://www.torparse.com/a/376433/1/0/Damage+Dealt

Titan 6

Rhuarc - Titans - Gunslinger - Saboteur - 7/36/3 - 3714

Log: http://www.torparse.com/a/376410/5/0/Damage+Dealt

Anywho, I love the idea of this thread. Don't do much dummy parsing these days other than to test stuff out, but boss parsing is something I always do. So this thread suits me perfectly.

I would like some feedback on this expanded rule.

It's definitely complicated, but I think these edits comply with what I overall think is a 'legit kill parse' - tougher to edit and tougher to validate, but as a DPS I do know that sometimes you will do everything you can and still die within the last 5 seconds of the fight when your guild goes on to kill it.

I think those instances should be considered for a leaderboard (with that extra empty time added at end, reducing your actual dps).

Interested to hear any thoughts on it though. It's certainly much simpler to just say 'no deaths whatsoever' but I do think that could exclude a high number of record parses in NiM.

I think this rule sounds fair indeed. Alltough my experience in downing NiM content is only the 1st boss in TfB I notice that we all tend to die after the kill (twisted spwans and the fouloffspring of the incubated tank). I assume this happens more in the rest of the NiM fights too.

To verify if I understand the new rule. You mean to say that parses are considered valid when you die in the last seconds of the bossfight and the rest of the group manages to kill the boss without you.

To be considered valid you need to extend your parse with the extra seconds that it took the rest to kill the boss. And provide if possible the killtime.

In my case that would mean that this parse of 3607,51 becomes extended with 1 second to account for the I possibly was dead. Which turns into this parse of 3597,91

My opinion regarding the "not die" rule:

Raids are a team effort. If the boss is dead it is a successful kill, regardless of an element having died or not. We have fights where some people are literally bait and are prone to die so that other more important elements can survive and this does not diminish their value as a member of the team.

However, I do not agree with submitting parses of wipes, even if the boss is at 1HP. I know sometimes it's damn near impossible to validate if a kill actually happened, but we have to rely on some sort of honor system here.

Buddy - TK Spec Sage

Old Republic Dads

The Shadowlands

8 Man Writhing Horror NiM

2947 dps

http://www.torparse.com/a/376038

8 Man NiM

Niccolò - <Haterade>

Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7

Styrak 2548.83

Neat thread. Nice to see actual parses in fights rather than on the dummy.

This week TFB with invinc my operative and NOODLE thats not me, just group log on a random run.

W.Horror: i would love to get some feedback on this boss on how people do it?, boss is dead, we are stuck in fight for like 12 seconds, so real ending numbers even with dps delay, were like 3.2 - 3.15... ive seen few parses in there where i dont actually see the "boss dead" at the end, people just know these and /stuck at the end?, just want to know what rules we playing with so its fair.

EDIT: Actual trim parse when boss dies, choose what fit your rules

Invinc - HATRED - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3172

http://www.torparse.com/a/376087/time/1376016948/1376017250/0/Damage+Dealt

Noo'dles- HATRED - Marauder - Carnage - 5 / 36 / 5 - 3212

http://www.torparse.com/a/376090/time/1376016948/1376017250/0/Damage+Dealt

UNTRIMMED:

Invinc - HATRED - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3041

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/8

Noo'dles- HATRED - Marauder - Carnage - 5 / 36 / 5 - 2984

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/8

DGs:

Invinc - HATRED - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3196

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/16

Noo'dles- HATRED - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 - 2782

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/16

Operator: this includes me dieing at certain point, but dps doesnt stop, i got a battle rez, it just lowered my dps, so i dont know how the rules apply there... and noodle clicking

Invinc - HATRED - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 2341

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/21

Noo'dles- HATRED - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 - 2063

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/21

Kephess:

Invinc - HATRED - Operative - Concealment - 3/36/7 - 3757

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/25

Noo'dles- HATRED - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 - 3974

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/25

TFB:

Invinc - HATRED - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 2248

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/26

Noo'dles- HATRED - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 - 2492

http://www.torparse.com/g/7491/26

W.Horror: i would love to get some feedback on this boss on how people do it?, boss is dead, we are stuck in fight for like 12 seconds, so real ending numbers even with dps delay, were like 3.2 - 3.15... ive seen few parses in there where i dont actually see the "boss dead" at the end, people just know these and /stuck at the end?, just want to know what rules we playing with so its fair.

My understanding is that you are allowed to trim the log on TORParse immediately following the boss kill, thus eliminating the extra combat time.

Trimming on TORParse ensures the kill is still verifiable if any of these situations occur:

• You (or someone else in your group log) got the killing blow on the boss
  
• You leave combat shortly after the trimmed log end (adds killed)
  
• The next fight in the log is the trash in between bosses
  

My opinion regarding the "not die" rule:

Raids are a team effort. If the boss is dead it is a successful kill, regardless of an element having died or not. We have fights where some people are literally bait and are prone to die so that other more important elements can survive and this does not diminish their value as a member of the team.

 

However, I do not agree with submitting parses of wipes, even if the boss is at 1HP. I know sometimes it's damn near impossible to validate if a kill actually happened, but we have to rely on some sort of honor system here.

Thats all true indeed. The problem would not so much be the being dead, it has more to do with the shorter fight. 1 example is someone that has done 47.000.000 dps on 1st boss TfB HM/NM and therefore topping the charts. This one is easy to spot ofc, but what if the fight time is 250 seconds (instead of the normal 320-ish). Is that just good dps or a crook?

At least I assume this is the reason.

If it means that we get lesser crooks I would exclude dead peoples parses (inlcuding mine). If paowee and airwulf are willing to do more micromanage / take more risk the new rules could work.

If you take my 1st parse for example. I know we killed the boss, I know i only went dead right after the boss was down. Can I prove it? No. Depending the rules its an Honorsystem indeed.

A middleroad maybe would be that if someone doesnt make it out alive he/she needs to link the killparse (from groupmember) and extend the parse with empty time after it. (a bit what airwuld has suggested now).

Haven't killed more than half of the bosses yet, but here are parses of those I have killed (minus Kephess as I can't seem to find a log from that fight; must've accidentally got deleted). Here goes:

 

Terror From Beyond 8-man:

 

Writhing Horror

Rhuarc - Titans - Gunslinger - Saboteur - 7/36/3 - 3815

Log: http://www.torparse.com/a/352638/2/0/Damage+Dealt

Is there a way to check from the log if a parse is HM or NiM..?

The real problem is that raid parses are not an "exact science". We can spend entire weeks debating rules for every boss fight but in the end it all comes down to common sense.

For example, on Olok the Shadow, the current top (and only) parse from Fenrîr (http://www.torparse.com/a/375927/1/0/Damage+Dealt) starts with the line:

20:16:16.308 Fenrîr enters combat.

And after only features Olok the Shadow and his Underworld Arms Trader/Shady Customer adds.

This is because they killed the droid field before the boss spawned and he was out of combat for 193ms which reset the log.

20:16:16.115 Fenrîr leaves combat.

In my opinion this is a legitimate parse.

On the other hand I got parses on the same boss like http://www.torparse.com/a/372875/17/0/Damage+Dealt which start when we pull the Wealthy Buyer and his Bodyguards and feature a 2 minute downtime after we came out of the elevator waiting for everything to come off cooldown.

How do we compare these logs? I can't just cut my start time (violates rule #2).

If I trimmed my log from the point when Olok spawned (http://www.torparse.com/a/372875/time/1375825761/1375826109/0/Damage+Dealt) my DPS would be 2072.05, instead of 1827.77. Quite a big difference...

So as I said, I believe it comes down to common sense and this must be handled in a case-by-case basis.

This parse has been in torparse statistics for quite "awhile". Are you sure these are NiM and not HM?

 

Is there a way to check from the log if a parse is HM or NiM..?

Yes and no. There is a reason you guys made this thread ;-) Torparse cant see if its HM or NiM. Logicly we can't detect it either.

There are some tickoffs to see if its NiM or not:

- Incoming damage(types)

Incoming damage. The NiM versions should tick for way more.

- Having extra NiM adds

If those are not present its lickely HM

- lenght of the bossfight

high dps = fast killtimes on HM. On NiM not always

- number of wipes

If everything is oneshotted in the parse it might mean that the group is just plain awesome. Or they did HM

Basicly, use commun logic. Something that a computer (like the torparsesystems) can't do.

This parse has been in torparse statistics for quite "awhile". Are you sure these are NiM and not HM?

 

Is there a way to check from the log if a parse is HM or NiM..?

The combat log date is 24th of July, so it's not all that old. It was however the only kill of those I linked that wasn't done this week. I didn't want to link a HM kill by mistake, so I checked the "Damage Taken" section and compared individual hits I took to those of another parse in this thread since everything does a fair bit more damage in NiM compared to HM (I compared to Carlenix I believe, because I figured comparing with another Sniper/Gunslinger would be the most accurate). All damage I took was (very) slightly lower than that of the same ability in the comparison log, but it seems I was guarded and he was not (judging by the fact that all threat he generated was equal to the damage he caused), so I'd assume the small difference is due to the 5% reduced damage when guarded.

Thadalina - Scoundrel - 3/6/37 DirtyFighting - Writhing Horror 8man - 3037.17

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/325125/13/0/Damage+Dealt

Thadalina did this fight with just 2piece pve set bonus, 2 69-armorings but one 75 armoring in the bracer. No Nightmare Pilgrim Buff used. Sadly that's the only boss kill on NiM where my scoundrel could focus on dps.

DG

Milas - Hatred - Sorcerer - 5/5/36 - 2593.59

http://www.torparse.com/a/376948/19/0/Overview

OP9

Milas - Hatred - Sorcerer - 5/5/36 - 2290.69

http://www.torparse.com/a/376948/24/0/Overview

Kephess

Milas - Hatred - Sorcerer - 5/5/36 - 3258.67

http://www.torparse.com/a/376948/28/0/Overview

Some updates

nasadar-gunslinger-solstice 3052.98 dps hybrid

titan 6 nim

http://www.torparse.com/a/373965

damn lucky fight had no huge grenade to worry about so was just a nuke fest

16 Man NiM Kephess the Undying

Aphrodisiak - Dark Eclipse - Marauder - Annihilation (36-8-2) - 3656.86 - NO Pilgrim BUFF

Torparse Link

Parse Link

22:53:20 to 23:00:13 Fight

The writhing Horror 8m nim

Ashwinn<impressive>bh Arsenal 6/36/4 2838 http://www.torparse.com/a/377543/10/0/Overview

no pilgrim buff

still in 63/66 enhancements

8man

DG Laze - YES - Sniper - Marksman - 36/8/2 - 2966

log: http://www.torparse.com/a/327986/23

KU Laze - YES - Sniper - Marksman - 36/8/2 - 4097

log: http://www.torparse.com/a/377614

WH Laze - YES - Sniper - Marksman - 36/8/2 - 3497

log: http://www.torparse.com/a/298722/8

Accuracy is overrated

for 8man

DG Oaceen - omg PINK - Commando - Assault Specialist - 0/10/36 - 2446.5

Log link: http://www.torparse.com/a/375958/20/0/Damage+Dealt

AMR Profile: almost entirely 72 / few arkanian / kell dragon bracers

i know this will eventually be pushed out, but hopefully i'll get some better gear and be the one to push it out

here is the link to the whole upload. i died after writhing horror was killed, but i'm not sure how to find it in the log (if anyone can help?) to cut for submission, so i'm only submitting for DG. this is not my first kill for either, so there isn't an achievement in the log.