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The bloodbath that is Blood Hunt


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The first boss is simply impossible unless you're hm ops geared. Just had a group with a 220/224 set bonus and a 216/220 comms gear sorcs and we enraged at around 90k hp. I doubt it's rotation problems, the comms gear guy asked for a few secs to respec and a person that plays two specs on one character should know his rotation. The set bonus guy, well unless you're endlessly grinding ev an kp priority you won't get 224 at all if you're a noob, but he also had valor level 80. So yeah, either increase enrage timer or reduce his hp. Maybe reduce hp of adds instead of boss. Damage output isn't a problem, but you have to have the gear, the perfect rotation and even then, if you aren't playing some of the better parsing classes you can fail.
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Yeah, no.

 

I'm not saying the boss might not be overtuned. It very well could be. But your group had sub-par dps, plain and simple. Gear has nothing to do with it. A good player in old 198 gear can and probably will outdps a bad player in full 224. The fight itself is about knowing your class, about knowing how to maximise dps while avoiding stuff, and maximising dps on adds (which means the tank has to do something other than hold the boss).

 

When the fight was nerfed back in 3.X, it became easy enough to do with 3 dps and healer (well, to be fair two guildies did it with companions, I think tank+dps and 2 healer companions). If the damage to the group isn't an issue, getting the tank to do more damage can be helpful.

Edited by Memo-
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The first boss is simply impossible unless you're hm ops geared.

 

Err... no it's not. I agree it is more difficult than other HM FP's. But the above statement is incorrect.

 

 

Just had a group with a 220/224 set bonus and a 216/220 comms gear sorcs and we enraged at around 90k hp. I doubt it's rotation problems,

 

Why in the world would you doubt that? It seems like the number one culprit.

 

the comms gear guy asked for a few secs to respec and a person that plays two specs on one character should know his rotation.

 

What the heck does this mean? Changing specs is now a sign of skill? lol

 

The set bonus guy, well unless you're endlessly grinding ev an kp priority you won't get 224 at all if you're a noob

 

Actually, at no point in the history of this game has it been easier for people with absolutely no idea how to play to get full BiS gear. You can make exactly zero assumptions about a players skill from gear.

 

but he also had valor level 80

 

Again, nothing to do with skill and or indication of class knowledge. Nothing.

 

Basically, your group failed so you'd like the fight nerfed. That's really all you've said as none of the justifications for why you thought your group was good enough have anything to do with being good enough.

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Ok, since you wanna nitpick.

Err... no it's not. I agree it is more difficult than other HM FP's. But the above statement is incorrect.

It is on a whole other level. Before it was more difficult. Now it's nightmarish.

 

 

Why in the world would you doubt that? It seems like the number one culprit.

Because I play a lightning sorc. Both sorcs were lightning. They have one of the easiest rotations in existence. I can tell they were not doing crap stuff just by the refresh rate of the debuffs.

 

What the heck does this mean? Changing specs is now a sign of skill? lol

How many newbies that don't know their rotations would even bother with dual spec?

 

Actually, at no point in the history of this game has it been easier for people with absolutely no idea how to play to get full BiS gear. You can make exactly zero assumptions about a players skill from gear.

That is true, but then again what kind of assumption you can make besides continuously observing a person? Guild? He can be a baddie that's carried. Achievements? He could have farmed them pre-4.0. I didn't bother to watch them what they were doing because first, they were lightning and I know that spec very well, and second we always hit the enrage when the boss was under 5%.

 

 

Again, nothing to do with skill and or indication of class knowledge. Nothing.

Riiight, I'm sure someone that completely sucks at his class always gets carried in warzones and somehow, even when being a dead weight, gets to valor 80.

 

Basically, your group failed so you'd like the fight nerfed. That's really all you've said as none of the justifications for why you thought your group was good enough have anything to do with being good enough.

Really? I have observed this over and over again with different groups, different skill and gear levels, heck, even different versions of the game (pre/post 4.0). I didn't ask for the huge nerfbat to be laid upon this boss, just a little fix here and there. Adding 20 more seconds to the enrage timer, or removing 50k hp from the boss is that much of a bother to you? Why is Blood Hunt the only flashpoint that people leave upon random pop when my experience is supposedly shared by the minority of players? Basically, your post can be summed up in "l2p noob" since you provided no actual arguments to counter me.

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Yeah, no.

 

I'm not saying the boss might not be overtuned. It very well could be. But your group had sub-par dps, plain and simple. Gear has nothing to do with it. A good player in old 198 gear can and probably will outdps a bad player in full 224. The fight itself is about knowing your class, about knowing how to maximise dps while avoiding stuff, and maximising dps on adds (which means the tank has to do something other than hold the boss).

 

When the fight was nerfed back in 3.X, it became easy enough to do with 3 dps and healer (well, to be fair two guildies did it with companions, I think tank+dps and 2 healer companions). If the damage to the group isn't an issue, getting the tank to do more damage can be helpful.

 

My point is they weren't bad players. The adds were dropping like flies with one or two exceptions. Also, stop trying to make the mechanics of this fight more complicated than they are. Don't stand in stupid, attack adds when they appear and taunt each time the boss throws you away (although I had a couple of random aggro drops for some reason). That's it. People portraying this fight as the gateway to HM operations amuse me. And about that nerf - I didn't notice it at all. Fight has never been changed in my books.

 

P.S. I parse around 3k dps as a tank, 220/224 mix, doubt it gets much higher than that.

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Ok, since you wanna nitpick.

 

....

 

Basically, your post can be summed up in "l2p noob" since you provided no actual arguments to counter me.

 

My point is the determinants you listed are meaningless, they in no way represent attributes of people able to defeat this encounter.

 

You basically said that anyone with full 224 in the 4.0 meta must know what they are doing.

You basically said that anyone with valor 80 must know what they are doing.

You basically said that someone who respec's must know what they are doing.

 

I disagree. Strongly.

 

I do not disagree with the premise that the fight is overtuned. I believe there should not be outliers in the queue. I feel separating it and BoR into a separate queue/weekly a la the way the Rakghoul FP's used to be handled makes much more sense.

 

I just do not think you can/should use the above as assumptions as you make your case. If you accept them as fact there are a lot of other nerfs people can start asking for.

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I strongly agree with gabigool and memo-. Their responses are very accurate in my opinion. I organize hard mode raids in my guild and have come across all of the things you listed that should show that the player knows how to play there class. From my experience in this game, especially now, those things mean almost nothing.

 

If you're doing 3k damage as a tank in this situation all you can do is ask yourself. Can I make it easier for the adds to go down by using the classes aoe? If not then the dps are simply not pulling the weight needed to finish the fight.

 

Should this fight be moved to another tier on the group finder.....probably.

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By the way, if DPS is too low for the fight, you have to skip one more add wave.

 

It migth be a tactical issue also. I think it's best everyone stack on the boss, so the adds leaps there and everyone aoe them along with the boss.

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Well, I do admit getting bis gear is easy these days but I haven't met one person with 220+ gear that was doing noobish mistakes repeatedly. Same goes for people with 70+ valor level. I don't know, maybe I don't pug enough or maybe I have forgotten my bad experiences with seemingly good players.
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What rotation?? I use set of priority mostly , and while BH first boss is killer for most it simply cause DPS dont KILL the ADDS quick enough or stand in RED no no and get netted.

 

Fact is most DPS is bad. yes BH first boss is tad OVER tuned,

 

Well, I do admit getting bis gear is easy these days but I haven't met one person with 220+ gear that was doing noobish mistakes repeatedly. Same goes for people with 70+ valor level. I don't know, maybe I don't pug enough or maybe I have forgotten my bad experiences with seemingly good players.

I have, they tend to be same people that think Mechanics are hard and or should be ignored

 

There are atlest 2 people like that in my guild that in 224 that after all this time still dont know EV HM mechanics or meaning of be aware. If ORB on SOA did damage equivalent to what they did when people had columi/rakata gear vs there actual HP, **** ton groups would be wiped, that let the orbs go right threw the middle of the group, and pop them on the group, cause those orbs use to do 50% damage vs they actual hp, they dont do close to that now.

 

All reasons why I dont PUG GF HM FP anymore

Edited by Kyuuu
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If I do have issues with the first boss, it's with a PUG. When I do BH with guild mates, we only ever have issues with Joss and Valk, mainly because 90% of the time they reset themselves.

I would like to add, most of us are very well geared.

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Yeah when I get this FP with a pug, I immediately ask if anyone has done it before. If not I ask everyone to leave and we all requeue to get another fp (that way no one has to wait again). It's definitely not an fp you want to do with random pugs.
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Dps + compheal + compdps + guild member tanking = took about 12000dps between us to kill first boss in 2:40

 

Reminded me of the old lost island furnace room with lots of aoe and some adds to kill.

 

It's busy, the mechanics are punishing, the adds are dangerous, the boss is dangerous so yes, it is unusual that you actually have to put in some effort for the fight.

 

I'd rather all HM FP became relevant in difficulty AND reward rather than everything get nerfed down to idiot level.

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I like this fight because it actually presents a pretty decent challenge for a Flashpoint. It's very doable, and you don't even need 220+s to do it. Just know what you're doing. Other guy suggested stacking adds on boss and AoEing them down? That works - same as it does for Ortuno and many other boss fights. If your DPS are chasing adds around, they're not hitting the boss, and that's when the enrage gets risky.
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Because I play a lightning sorc. Both sorcs were lightning. They have one of the easiest rotations in existence. I can tell they were not doing crap stuff just by the refresh rate of the debuffs.

Do you parse ~6.3-6.5? Did both sorcs have proper offensive cooldowns up at all times they needed them? Could they aoe adds properly and stack up on boss?

Lightning is NOWHERE near easy as all the dps comes from maintaining buffs and managing offensive cooldowns.

 

 

How many newbies that don't know their rotations would even bother with dual spec?

A lot. Take me for example, I know crap about sorc, sin or operative dps but still have a respec on all my toons. Concealment SEEMS easy, for example, but it's just as easy for me to slack for 500-1500 dps on a boss due to bad damage translation and poor understanding of rotation.

Devoted madness sorcs are actually famous for having not much more dps/burst in lightning than they have in madness, if more at all.

 

That is true, but then again what kind of assumption you can make besides continuously observing a person? Guild? He can be a baddie that's carried. Achievements? He could have farmed them pre-4.0. I didn't bother to watch them what they were doing because first, they were lightning and I know that spec very well, and second we always hit the enrage when the boss was under 5%.

Achievements still can say a lot about how much person plays/how comfortable he feels in raiding environment. For dps it naturally translates to "how good he can actually dps on a boss as compared to dummy". Pre-4.0 achievements? So what? Many baddies got total carry on NiMs but still if person didn't buy DF run (achieve timestamp), he's usually good for at least something. Flashpoint-level good most surely.

Second point makes no sense to me in the context of your first sentence. So what, sorry?

 

Riiight, I'm sure someone that completely sucks at his class always gets carried in warzones and somehow, even when being a dead weight, gets to valor 80.

Another unrelated point. PvP players can be insanely good but when it comes to PvE they can make every kind of newb mistake like dancing in the boss' cleaves. Not to speak rotations, PvE and PvP ones are entirely different.

 

Really? I have observed this over and over again with different groups, different skill and gear levels, heck, even different versions of the game (pre/post 4.0).

FYI we did it in the start of 4.0 with friends in old 198 BiS, can do it again if we find said old gear for the dps mains. Can as well roll a class I barely know in 208/216, still most likely would be fine after parsing for a bit.

 

Granted, dps check REQUIRES you to know what you're doing at least a little bit. Is it a bad thing? I don't think so.

Basically, your post can be summed up in "l2p noob" since you provided no actual arguments to counter me.

/signed.

It's not more l2p, however, it's learn to take measures that actually would matter. I did some calculations back in a day, 4.0 dps check is ~5.2 per dps if I'm not mistaken, it's not that hard to achieve unless you're a sniper or something.

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Interesting, OP. I guess you just caught the boss on a bad day. I had a guild group last night, with my Op healing in mostly 216's from Ops drops, the Jugg tank in a set of 216's from the Glowing Crystal vendor, and 2 Sorc DPSers in a mix of 208 and 216. We decided to check it and see. I was mostly t9 augmented, the other guys all t8 with a handful of t9's.

Knowing the first boss is hard, we expected to wipe but having picked HM BH we decided to give it a go to see how far we could get.

The first boss fight was hard, but we managed it, getting him down just as the enrage timer ticked.

It's difficult to say what specifically your group did wrong, but I would guess at not disposing of the adds efficiently enough so that you could concentrate on getting the boss down.

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The first boss is simply impossible unless you're hm ops geared. Just had a group with a 220/224 set bonus and a 216/220 comms gear sorcs and we enraged at around 90k hp. I doubt it's rotation problems, the comms gear guy asked for a few secs to respec and a person that plays two specs on one character should know his rotation. The set bonus guy, well unless you're endlessly grinding ev an kp priority you won't get 224 at all if you're a noob, but he also had valor level 80. So yeah, either increase enrage timer or reduce his hp. Maybe reduce hp of adds instead of boss. Damage output isn't a problem, but you have to have the gear, the perfect rotation and even then, if you aren't playing some of the better parsing classes you can fail.

 

Here are some things you need to ask yourself

 

Did your group do the following given you fell 90 K short.

1. Healing damage it shouldn't be difficult for a healer to do some dps if only at the start 50 K damage from the healer suddenly puts you down to about 40k short.

2. Did your sorc dps use god bubble when enrage hit? 4 stacks of enduring bastion mitigates an awful lot of damage and will allow some dps uptime before you die even through enrage. If you had a sorc healer he/she too could have done this.

3 Did you tank the boss with as many adds within aoe range of it? This may include harpooning/pull/push an extra add into a group. AOEing the boss with as many adds together increases dps uptime on the boss as well as kills adds faster. You can't just tank it in the corner.

 

If you answered yes to all of the above then it was a real dps issue.

Edited by MuskyBoy
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3 Did you tank the boss with as many adds within aoe range of it? This may include harpooning/pull/push an extra add into a group. AOEing the boss with as many adds together increases dps uptime on the boss as well as kills adds faster. You can't just tank it in the corner.

Also, stack up on boss when adds spawn, they tend to leap. Sorcs are somewhat swift on their feet, but it's hard to maintain APM.

 

I'd add

4. Did you kite the boss when enrage hit? There's some time to enrage phase which can be survived for sure until boss starts killing with unavoidables.

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As to the impossible w/o ops gear bit, yes and no.

 

The fact is, with 200s enrage timer, two adds with 50k HP each every 30 seconds and about 1.5 mil HP on the furball, the group needs to shell out about 10.5k DPS, give or take, to beat the enrage. Clever grouping and good AoE will pad the actual output, of course. 2.5k from tank, 4k per dps, easy.

 

But.

 

Lot of ground stuff going on in that fight. Blue circles will lower actual dps output. Getting an add inside a bubble with all melee group will complicate things. Not being able to group the adds for whatever reason, having dps with weak aoe, greenish people who have trouble dodging stuff while dishing out punishment at the same time, etc.

 

The biggest problem with this arrangement is the simple fact that HM BH is availible in group finder. Conveniently forgeting the quality of your average pug, you can get full level 50 group for HM BH. Yes, they will get bolstered, but compared to 216/220 gear, they will fall what, 20-25% short in raw output? Not to mention they will miss a bunch of passives and lvl 58 ability, which will be a hindrance to a degree varying from "meh" (warding call on guardian tank) to "fudge" (concentrated slice).

 

25% down from 5k is 3.75k. If we take 3k as tank output, it gets lowered to 2.25k. This would require 750 extra dps from the healer just to (barely) beat the enrage.

 

Let that sink in, now think about what 5k dps in 216/220 requirement means. It's attacking NiM level performance. Now remove bunch of passives, utility, one whole ability, and demand comparative performance from a lvl 50. These guys would get the boot from the FP upon loading.

 

I don't mind challenging, the droid in Korriban can be a pretty tight dps check for inexperienced players, but HM BH will stop vast majority of pugs dead on the very first boss. Literally. I have seen enrage as "soon" as at 50%, with about 25% being the average. Only beat it with a pug once, last week, two ops guys (as in full set bonus, 220/224), pretty green tank, healer was great, other dps bit of an arse, but his output was solid. I had 216/220 comm gear w/ low endurance enhancements. We killed the furball with over 30s to spare.

 

Bottom line is, HM BH may not necessarily be overtuned in and of itself, but it definitely is overtuned for a FP accessible in GF from the same pool of choices as, say Taral V.

 

P.S.: tactical is not much better, trying second boss without a healer (and possibly tank) is suicidal as well.

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From what i recall, adds spawn every 45s and not 30. At start, for the first 45s, there is almost no healing to do, so healer has to burst damage with the others. Then adds have to be stacked so the group can AOE them. That's implying the ranged dps and healer have to stand near the boss or, less preferably, the tank has to move the boss to the adds. Finally, you're not forced to kill the last waves of adds.
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From what i recall, adds spawn every 45s and not 30. At start, for the first 45s, there is almost no healing to do, so healer has to burst damage with the others. Then adds have to be stacked so the group can AOE them. That's implying the ranged dps and healer have to stand near the boss or, less preferably, the tank has to move the boss to the adds. Finally, you're not forced to kill the last waves of adds.

 

It's every 30 seconds, and the first wave comes 25s into the fight, checked two different logs.

 

Saying that adds have to be stacked is all very well, but keep in mind the FP is in GF and you can get people who never done the fight before, so expecting optimal performance is somewhat divorced from reality.

 

I am not arguing that the fight is not doable with good group, merely pointing out it is not reliably doable with what GF regularly puts together. Yet you need to queue for all available FP to get the daily done. Leaving the FP as it is and removing it from the kiddie pool would be fine. Otherwise it needs to get adjusted.

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Having read the comments here, I believe I could have influenced the outcome of the fight, me being the tank there. I always managed to get at least one add next to the boss, but the group was spread around (3 sorcs and me jugg) so it was impossible to get everything in one place. I think at least one of them used god bubble during the fight, mainly because of being too slow during the rocks phase. The heal did dish out some damage, but not that much since he wasn't that geared and had some trouble healing, be it because of people standing in stupid or simple lack of luck in terms of positioning.

 

Still, the people that post here and say they've done it without any of my troubles also say it was with guildies. And that's different from doing it with a pug.

 

Second point makes no sense to me in the context of your first sentence. So what, sorry?

I meant that if the boss enrages at the final seconds of the fight every time, that is hardly a rotation problem (perhaps gearing, but definitely not rotation).

 

P.S. My sorc is in 216 set bonus gear, with a few odd 192 pieces here and there, so I haven't bothered to put my lightning skills to the test (I also haven't done any progression with that char so I haven't had the need to).

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I meant that if the boss enrages at the final seconds of the fight every time, that is hardly a rotation problem (perhaps gearing, but definitely not rotation).

 

That is not in anyway an indicator for what you say. It says that their rotation is steady enough to do the same numbers every time in the fight in question - that doesn't mean their rotation is optimal, or even a good one. The numbers were already brought up in the thread before, the dps target isn't high. If you were pulling 3k dps as tank, as you said, then both dps were bad, plain and simple.

Edited by Memo-
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The fact is, with 200s enrage timer, two adds with 50k HP each every 30 seconds and about 1.5 mil HP on the furball, the group needs to shell out about 10.5k DPS, give or take, to beat the enrage. Clever grouping and good AoE will pad the actual output, of course. 2.5k from tank, 4k per dps, easy.

Huh, I recalled my calculations to net like ~5.2k per dps if tank is slightly slacking but I thought it was more than beatable. Aside of the low-level dps you mentioned, that is.

 

The biggest problem with this arrangement is the simple fact that HM BH is availible in group finder.

Let that sink in, now think about what 5k dps in 216/220 requirement means. It's attacking NiM level performance.[\QUOTE]

No, it's far less downtime than, say, Dread Guards, and there are decent possibilities for AoE. If we think 208 is the entry gear level, then well, 4.5 should be the number.

 

I don't mind challenging, the droid in Korriban can be a pretty tight dps check for inexperienced players, but HM BH will stop vast majority of pugs dead on the very first boss. Literally. I have seen enrage as "soon" as at 50%, with about 25% being the average. Only beat it with a pug once, last week, two ops guys (as in full set bonus, 220/224), pretty green tank, healer was great, other dps bit of an arse, but his output was solid. I had 216/220 comm gear w/ low endurance enhancements. We killed the furball with over 30s to spare.

Yeah, agreed. Droid is really easy but somehow lots of groups have problems with that. Simply put, that means "moving and dpsing" is some attained ability which is hard to master for new players and in BH it's more laggy, besides all things, which makes it lot harder to move efficiently. This being said, BH is definitely one step above Korriban in difficulty.

 

Bottom line is, HM BH may not necessarily be overtuned in and of itself, but it definitely is overtuned for a FP accessible in GF from the same pool of choices as, say Taral V.

There's a bigger issue with HM FPs than just that. Bosses-where-people-wipe is just a glimpse of balance issues where you roflstomp your way through The Foundry and hit a brick wall in Blood Hunt. People have asked for different rewards at least or something many times on forums, that never helped.

Still, the people that post here and say they've done it without any of my troubles also say it was with guildies. And that's different from doing it with a pug.

Yeah, because waiting in groupfinder for ages as a dps to get people insta leaving or booting you for bad gear is not really worth it. If queuing as a tank and getting essentially the same experience as yours... Well, I can't say if boss is really that bad or dps are bad if we're not on starparse, at very least. So I could check on APM, dps profiles and whatnot.

 

I meant that if the boss enrages at the final seconds of the fight every time, that is hardly a rotation problem (perhaps gearing, but definitely not rotation).

Err... Wrong?

I mean, I know a bunch of specs when I got like 500 dps doing ALMOST the same stuff but aligning offensives/procs better. And it is a rotation issue. Like, major rotation issue of me as a dps, I can come to boss and do some stuff very repetitively, get same results and my rotation would be MOSTLY right, but it doesn't justify it as a proper rotation including everything like offensives, adrenals, raid buffs etc.

 

On the other hand, probably it's too much to expect even stimming up from a dps queuing for HM FPs. Especially in leveling.

My point: It's 100% doable, but developers never made themselves clear about INTENDED difficulty of different parts of content. I've even watched some streams, but we never ever got answers about why boss X is far more difficult than boss Y and is placed in the same tier. Riddle me this - why are KP and EV considered hardmodes just like, say, Ravagers? Compare Fabricator and M&B - all the droids are placed as 4th boss of HM ops, and what do we get there?

 

I like BH HM as it is, but I'm by no means a target audience of this content, if I might put it that way. But having it on random in groupfinder is wrong, on that I agree.

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