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Hatred vs. Deception PvE


Theshrimpy

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So with the buff to hatred, which is preferred for ops? I am comfortable with both deception and hatred and they both are fun, so I am more interested in which is the better discipline, not "the discipline that you enjoy is the better one."
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It depends the fight. ^^ Hatred is more of an AoE spec than Deception. I would recommend Hatred for fights like Corruptor Zero/Revanites Commander where you can aoe a lot. Deception is more usefull in either single boss fight (Terror from Beyond) and quick series of burst on weak target (HM Brontes). Really, just play both and adapt with the current fight. ^^ Deception has more versatility but when it's really only about aoe and killing tons of adds, just go Hatred. :)
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Hatred on:

 

Bestia

Draxus

Corruptor, if you need the add damage

 

You could do it on Grob'Thok as well, but considering the low health of the adds and the time they take to die plus

Deceptions strength under the magnet effect, I really don't think that you should.

 

Deception on the rest. Simple as that.

 

 

Hatred is still too far behind to be considered a solid single target choice.

I mean.. that's kinda what you get if you buff AoE damage to achieve it.

Edited by Evolixe
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Hatred I think is better for Underlurker or any AOE fight.

 

I'd say Deception definitely still has an advantage due to its better defensives.

 

(Terror from Beyond)

 

I think Hatred might be better on this fight. I mean it's not a hard enough DPS check really to not use Deception, but you can't use Phantom Stride during the Pylons which is a DPS nerf for Deception, and the DoT's will keep ticking during the tentacle slam which is additional uptime for Hatred. Deception's burst is more useful on irregularities/anomalies though.

 

Just my two cents, someone with more experience might be able to say more.

 

I wonder if Hatred is still a better choice on Brontes though (even with front-side maul), since you could theoretically spread DoT's to all the fingers in the 6-finger phase? I don't know, to be honest, thoughts on that?

Edited by FlavivsAetivs
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What? Absolutely not. Hatred isn't going to pull its weight on Terrors first phase (while Deception can eaily pull 9.6k even without taking any of the buffs)

 

And with Force Speed's defensive reduction you can eat and stay on every slam. So there is 0 advantage to Hatred there.

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Hmm... fair enough. I was just concerned about Deception's lack of Phantom Stride (for an extra Discharge every 20s) having an effect on its DPS in the Pylons phase. Hence why I asked for the input of someone who knew better. Edited by FlavivsAetivs
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Hmm... fair enough. I was just concerned about Deception's lack of Phantom Stride (for an extra Discharge every 20s) having an effect on its DPS in the Pylons phase. Hence why I asked for the input of someone who knew better.

why arent u concerned how crap hatred is above 30% hp on the target ?

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Underlurker is a fair point I hadn't considered. You should definitely go Hatred on that too.

And if you're careful enough you could probably also play it on Torque.

 

But anything else you just really want to stick to Dec.

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I was going to ask your opinions about Torque but I see it's been mentioned. That's the one fight I still always switch unless I'm the only melee or there are snipers, even though damage taken can skyrocket :(

 

What about Dash'roode? Mostly because cloaking makes you lost in the sandstorm over and over again...

 

I have to say I don't like Hatred on Underlurker or Commanders at all. Back in 3.0 when it still had range and 8 mt DF to spread, yes. Besides both fights don't really require big things anymore and I feel so much less of a burden for the healers as Deception....they really need to give Hatred a permanent 30 % AoE dmg reduction or something else, it is ridiculously squishy :( And I want to have a reason to learn it better other than doing something different for the fun of it.

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I was going to ask your opinions about Torque but I see it's been mentioned. That's the one fight I still always switch unless I'm the only melee or there are snipers, even though damage taken can skyrocket :(

 

What about Dash'roode? Mostly because cloaking makes you lost in the sandstorm over and over again...

 

I have to say I don't like Hatred on Underlurker or Commanders at all. Back in 3.0 when it still had range and 8 mt DF to spread, yes. Besides both fights don't really require big things anymore and I feel so much less of a burden for the healers as Deception....they really need to give Hatred a permanent 30 % AoE dmg reduction or something else, it is ridiculously squishy :( And I want to have a reason to learn it better other than doing something different for the fun of it.

 

Absolutely not, if you keep getting lost you're really just unlucky.

Dashroode also doesn't have enough adds to benefit Hatred really. Unless your Ranged/Marauders are sleeping.

Deception is miles better on that boss ESP now that you can facemaul and you won't get screwed by knocks as much.

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Absolutely not, if you keep getting lost you're really just unlucky.

Dashroode also doesn't have enough adds to benefit Hatred really. Unless your Ranged/Marauders are sleeping.

Deception is miles better on that boss ESP now that you can facemaul and you won't get screwed by knocks as much.

 

oh I was under the impression that cloaking sort of resets your place in the "who's been lost already" table making it more likely you can be picked again...not sure I prefer being just unlucky but good to know :)

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I'm pretty sure Deception will get a nerf in the next balance round, along with most of the other melee burst specs.

Not that I want it, but according to bioware, melee burst should do roughly the same damage than ranged sustained, which by now all do around 9.5k, give or take a few hundred dps. The only melee burst spec that is within that range is Fury atm. At least according to top parses. Because that's the best way to balance, obviously :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, when that happens, hatred would most likey be a real alternative on most fights, imo.

Edited by Torvai
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I'm pretty sure Deception will get a nerf in the next balance round, along with most of the other melee burst specs.

Not that I want it, but according to bioware, melee burst should do roughly the same damage than ranged sustained, which by now all do around 9.5k, give or take a few hundred dps. The only melee burst spec that is within that range is Fury atm. At least according to top parses. Because that's the best way to balance, obviously :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, when that happens, hatred would most likey be a real alternative on most fights, imo.

 

I don't think they will nerf Deception... the class was doing fine in 4.0 and is roughly the same as now. By far I found it to be one of the most balanced spec of the game for now ^^

We'll be seeing some touch to operative dps/healer but that's all. :)

 

Back to topic, when someone mentionned Hatred on Brontes... you could take it if you've got some good burst dps to help you. Deception is way better for this than hatred because of the Reaper's Rush utility that allow you to kill fingers really quickly for example. :)

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I think that with frontal maul any reason that might have existed (if it did at all) to not pick Deception for Brontes is now truly gone. Especially so when you also factor in how much sturdier Deception is, on top of the better dps potential and burst vs dots.

 

I mean, I'm sure a very good/exceptional Hatred player is able to make it work everywhere but that type of player would do even better as Deception so other than fun/challenge (perfectly valid reasons, don't get me wrong) why bother?

 

Devs need to make sure that it pays off to be proficient in both specs, hopefully without crippling one to prop up the other.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't want a nerf for Deception and don't think it's neccessary. But I also don't think that an Arsenal nerf was neccessary. At least not in regards to dps.

But in Biowares opinion the pecking order looks like melee sustained > melee burst=ranged sustained > ranged burst.

So Deception is supposed to be in the same range as Virulece, Madness, IO and Engi. Which all parse around 10k atm, except for Madness, which is at 9.6k. Deception parses around 10.5k

So either Madness needs another buff or the other 3 specs get nerfed further, but either way deception overperforms, as do all melee burst specs with the exception of Fury.

 

As I said, I don't want a nerf, but looking at it with that logic(which is flawed, but it is what Bioware uses anyway), it's quite obvious it'll come.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't want a nerf for Deception and don't think it's neccessary. But I also don't think that an Arsenal nerf was neccessary. At least not in regards to dps.

But in Biowares opinion the pecking order looks like melee sustained > melee burst=ranged sustained > ranged burst.

So Deception is supposed to be in the same range as Virulece, Madness, IO and Engi. Which all parse around 10k atm, except for Madness, which is at 9.6k. Deception parses around 10.5k

So either Madness needs another buff or the other 3 specs get nerfed further, but either way deception overperforms, as do all melee burst specs with the exception of Fury.

 

As I said, I don't want a nerf, but looking at it with that logic(which is flawed, but it is what Bioware uses anyway), it's quite obvious it'll come.

 

I don't think there will be some nerf to Deception. :)

 

Deception is one of the few spec that rely heavily on RNG, because of Surging Charge's way of building up stack. Sure, we have a way to "force" this stack by using Ball Lightning, but in the end it's the same, bad luck with these stats will affect your perfomance, as well as being lucky with the RNG can improve your stats as well.

 

I'll take an operative for example : He can time his burst every time, because he knows how much he has to wait untill his next volatile substance comes, the same goes for arsenal merc, who knows exactly when his HS missiles will be up, the only RNG mechanics that affects him his critical rate. As Deception, it's a bit tricky, since you can time your next Maul --wich happens usually every 10-15sec-- but you cannot time exactly when your full Discharge will be available (except with Recklessness and Phantom Stride, but these aren't exactly up all the time. :) ) and furthermore, you have your crit stats that can influence the result of your discharge too (9k Discharge and 18k Discharge aren't exactly the same... Imagine if you're really unlucky and have slow discharge proc and bad crits).

 

I'll quote one of the devs on their famous "RNG is so exciting !"

Yeah it is if the reward is good and appropriate (here, the reward is Surging Charge's proc)... Basically, my point is that, if maybe Surging Charge's proc was "obligatory" (like, every six second you get a proc with melee attack) then yeah, Deception would be overpowered for its DPS. But since it rely on RNG more than other traditional spec, then I find it normal to have a reward that is "greater" in terms of dps parsing, since you cannot predict exactly when your attack will arrive. :D

And also, don't forget that in terms of mobility, Deception is a melee dps, your movements aren't really up all the time. On fights like HM Styrak I usually tend to lose some dps because of long distance between adds... Although I think that now with front maul the dps loss won't be as great.

 

And yeah, I totally agree on the fact that the dps for Arsenal or some other spec didn't need such nerf... But this is not the topic. :rolleyes:

 

 

If only it didn't look so silly.

 

"You spin me round..." :rak_03:

Edited by supertimtaf
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HM Styrak is easy for deception, all you have to do is just time your shadow stride right because it resets if you kill the add in less than 10 seconds. Mobility isn't an issue on that one anymore.

 

However they fixed HM underlurker so you have to take force speed + egress utility on him, otherwise the lurkerlings will slow you right after you activate force speed.

 

Face maul fixes the only issue with deception on HM Brontes. For most fights, with the insta-cooldown on Shadow stride if the add dies fast, it's fine. The issue now is with knockbacks or when the boss jumps everywhere, like Pearl/Cora/Ruugar (although I can't comment on HM, never been on a team that has gotten that far).

Edited by FlavivsAetivs
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HM Styrak is easy for deception, all you have to do is just time your shadow stride right because it resets if you kill the add in less than 10 seconds. Mobility isn't an issue on that one anymore.

 

You're right, just tested it, now that you've got Front Maul, Timing issue with adds isn't difficult to apprehend. The issue I was experiencing before was that I usually took too long on a nightmare manifestation, therefore not resetting my phantom stride on time... Now, the problem is solved, with good timing and good dps the fight is pretty much a joke. Haven't made it in NiM since 5.0 so I don't really know about that. ^^'

 

Although I agree on the fact that boss with bump/jump are usually the biggest concern for now. (Though if Phantom Stride was working properly every time and not 2 time out of 5 it wouldn't be so bad :D )

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