You complete the flashpoint and/or your teammates don't yell at you for aggroing what you don't need to, breaking CC etc ==> you did good.

None of the above ==> you didn't do that well.

Easy.

To answer the actual question, for 'dps meters' to work, we'll need a combat log. Currently the players do not have access to it hence there are no 'meters'.

The good news is that the lead combat designer is very much aware that this is an unpleasant situation and the combat log should become available soonish.

I am sure eventually they will allow addons but at the beginning they just want people to experience the game ins a raw state.

Ive not played the game yet but from what ive seen people are soloing low level flashpoints so damage is reallly a non issue up til you start doing raids (forget what they are called here)

The good news is that the lead combat designer is very much aware that this is an unpleasant situation and the combat log should become available soonish.

Link?

Link?

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=66910

As soon as there is a combat log there will be tools to parse them. That's when we'll start seeing real data about DPS class balance. This is important data.

DPS meters can also be misused. For example, if you are a terrible player, the meter will show that, and your excuse of "but we beat the instance" will be trumped with, "no thanks to you". You will then spend the rest of eternity poo-pooing meters on forums. No worries, you'll be in good company.

I personally hope they never release DPS parsing info. It changes the focus from the story/fun to a numbers gam

No it doesn't. You can choose to focus on whatever you want. You don't have to try to force everyone else to do it with you. Play the game your way and I'll play it mine.

DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).

DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

 

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

 

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

 

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).

You confuse "damage meter" with "idiot". Will you anti-damage meter people stop blaming a tool and start blaming the tools that don't use it correctly.

You confuse "damage meter" with "idiot". Will you anti-damage meter people stop blaming a tool and start blaming the tools that don't use it correctly.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg. WoW once had a fantastic community.

In short, the people who would use DPS meters correctly, don't need them.

Look, I am an ex-athlete and extremely competitive. I use every tool available to maximize performance and I hate DPS meters (even though I top them frequently). When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

To each his own I guess.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg. WoW once had a fantastic community.

 

In short, the people who would use DPS meters correctly, don't need them.

 

Look, I am an ex-athlete and extremely competitive. I use every tool available to maximize performance and I hate DPS meters (even though I top them frequently). When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

 

To each his own I guess.

Damage meters appeared very soon after WoW launched so unless you are saying that WoW had a fantastic community for the first 6 months and then it tanked you may want to try again.

So, as an athlete that hates damage meters, I assume that you are only concerned with beating your opponent and have zero interest in finding out what your time/score/stats were... Right!?

A better solution to this problem, that would help both sides is:

an in game dps meter that ONLY displays your dps.

yes yes I heard you scream. But think about it, the people who WANT to do well, who want to find the best spec, who want to see what works can.

The people who don't want to see it won't. since this information is not displayed for all to see, there will be no finger pointing, at least not any that wouldn't be said currently.

If someone is not pulling their weight or just plain being a slacker; you can tell it already, you don't need a meter to tell you.

You complete the flashpoint and/or your teammates don't yell at you for aggroing what you don't need to, breaking CC etc ==> you did good.

 

None of the above ==> you didn't do that well.

 

Easy.

 

To answer the actual question, for 'dps meters' to work, we'll need a combat log. Currently the players do not have access to it hence there are no 'meters'.

The good news is that the lead combat designer is very much aware that this is an unpleasant situation and the combat log should become available soonish.

So if i just dont move or press any button ill be fine? Since i didnt aggro anything i didnt need to and i didnt break any cc.

Jokes aside:

We need a damage meter now, not to see if anyone did good or not, but to test different builds and self-improve ourselves.

DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

 

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

 

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

 

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).

Its a good thing then that many of those dps meter also show the damage taken and how did you took it, so when that dps that ignored fight mechanic says he topped it, you linked where he took unnecesary damage.

In PVE, downing the content DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE DOING FINE. That a mediocre point of view said by those that dont want to improve and are happy enough with being carried.

In PVE, you are doing fine when you do the max damage you can with your latency/reflexes/class etc.

I dont want to see if i am better than john doe, i want to see with which playstyle I PLAY BETTER.

People like you, that think comparison to others is the only thing that matters use dps meters t5o ruin games.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg. WoW once had a fantastic community.

 

In short, the people who would use DPS meters correctly, don't need them.

 

Look, I am an ex-athlete and extremely competitive. I use every tool available to maximize performance and I hate DPS meters (even though I top them frequently). When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

 

To each his own I guess.

Damage meters were in wow since vanilla. Stop blaming bull***** to why the community in wow sucks, its not the damage meters, its not the LFD, its not anything except the people.

A good guy doesnt transform in an idiot when it installs a damage meter or press a lfd button, either already was an idiot or its not an idiot after that.

No tool destroyed any mmo, people did.

If we keep blaming tools for peoples behaviour, we would be missing the focus (which apparently is something you dont want). If you want a good community, start by being good to others yourself. If all of us do that, then there is not a single tool capable of destroying that community.

If the community sucks, it will suck no matter what tools you add or not.

So, as an athlete that hates damage meters, I assume that you are only concerned with beating your opponent and have zero interest in finding out what your time/score/stats were... Right!?

Exactly. I played soccer, baseball and basketball in High School and NCAA D1 soccer in college. I never had any "meters" or objective metrics that would accurately portray my performance. Some games in which I scored a bunch of points, were not my best and in others, when my point totals were low, I dominated. That's the nature of team sports. Score 3 goals and lose, then you didn't do enough to get it done; score 0 and win and you may have effected facets of the game that are missed by the clueless fans.

That said, meters can be useful, but there are way too many idiots out there who misuse them. They are fine for seeing personal differences in dps between builds/gear/etc because the information is in the difference. They are useless for just about anything else. They are especially worthless for evaluating someone else's dps after a wipe. Those numbers, outside some obvious issues like someone being afk, are completely worthless. Unfortunately, that's exactly how they will be used.

As for the guy who said it's the inherent nature of the people in the community and not the tool that defines the quality of the experience, I agree with you. Still, why do the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun?

Exactly. I played soccer, baseball and basketball in High School and NCAA D1 soccer in college. I never had any "meters" or objective metrics that would accurately portray my performance. Some games in which I scored a bunch of points, were not my best and in others, when my point totals were low, I dominated. That's the nature of team sports. Score 3 goals and lose, then you didn't do enough to get it done; score 0 and win and you may have effected facets of the game that are missed by the clueless fans.

 

That said, meters can be useful, but there are way too many idiots out there who misuse them. They are fine for seeing personal differences in dps between builds/gear/etc because the information is in the difference. They are useless for just about anything else. They are especially worthless for evaluating someone else's dps after a wipe. Those numbers, outside some obvious issues like someone being afk, are completely worthless. Unfortunately, that's exactly how they will be used.

 

As for the guy who said it's the inherent nature of the people in the community and not the tool that defines the quality of the experience, I agree with you. Still, why do the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun?

You seriously think, that is the game is full of idiots, you can stop the community demise just by not giving them a tool?

Can you be so naive?

If as you say there are too many idiots, we are doomed from the start, no matter what tools you give them or not.

Also, its not the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun and the fact that you used that analogy says a lot of yourself.

We need damage meters and UI mods to set the Ui as we want and not as other wanted, because not all of us like the same layouts.

Any modern MMO without that is not a serious MMO.

I agree with you about the UI mods. I agree to disagree about the dps meters. I do, however, believe that environment can affect community and, accordingly, dps meters would have a detrimental effect on the experience of the game for many people. They always have.

That said, my disagreement will ultimately be irrelevant. They are coming. It's just a matter of time.

DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

 

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

 

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

 

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).

I disagree. I think bad guilds and bad groups used DPS meters inappropriately-- looking at them as "Person 1 did x DPS, Person 2 did y DPS, therefore person 1 is better." If you want an addon that ruined games, talk to Gearscore.

Addons like Recount let you see not only how much damage was done, but how many interrupts were performed, how many CC's (and broken CC's), and other useful stats that could really give you a good idea of who needs improvement. For newer players, it was also useful to see where improvements can be made. If a similarly geared character of the same level and class is doing significantly more DPS than you, you might want to ask that person a few questions and see what you're doing wrong.

Recount was also extremely useful for healers, to see how much overhealing they were doing and particularly which spells were overhealing. I used this to develop new healing strategies when Cataclysm hit (and mana conservation actually mattered).

One last thing: If you have one DPS in your group that is doing virtually no damage (or 99% of their damage is autoattack), then yeah-- he needs to be talked to. MMO's are about downing content by working as a group, not 90% of the raid carrying the bad.

I disagree. I think bad guilds and bad groups used DPS meters inappropriately-- looking at them as "Person 1 did x DPS, Person 2 did y DPS, therefore person 1 is better." If you want an addon that ruined games, talk to Gearscore.

 

Addons like Recount let you see not only how much damage was done, but how many interrupts were performed, how many CC's (and broken CC's), and other useful stats that could really give you a good idea of who needs improvement. For newer players, it was also useful to see where improvements can be made. If a similarly geared character of the same level and class is doing significantly more DPS than you, you might want to ask that person a few questions and see what you're doing wrong.

 

Recount was also extremely useful for healers, to see how much overhealing they were doing and particularly which spells were overhealing. I used this to develop new healing strategies when Cataclysm hit (and mana conservation actually mattered).

 

One last thing: If you have one DPS in your group that is doing virtually no damage, then yeah-- he needs to be talked to. MMO's are about downing content by working as a group, not 90% of the raid carrying the bad.

You are all over the place with this post.

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

Meters do show things like interrupts, but so what? Being hammered by the skill that your guildy was supposed to interrupt also contains the same information. You assign people to perform certain duties and expect them to get it done. If you have 2 people interrupting then you expect them both to get their act together.

Meters are a tool used primarily by pugs and second tier raiding guilds that are trying to do their best with no real appreciation for how to accomplish it. They believe things can be fixed "on the fly" and once you overgear the raid, they are probably right. Once half the raid is overgeared and the other half is trying to get gear, those groups throw the numbers around like they mean more than they actually do. I have seen this over and over again in alt pug raids and when I raid with other guilds.

That said, you will get your way and this game will eventually have dps meters. They always do.

When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

and i'm sure you checked the missed interrupts and over healing and broken CC in a....waitforit....damage meter!

and i'm sure you checked the missed interrupts and over healing and broken CC in a....waitforit....damage meter!

Recount says hi. And yes, I did-- every single raid.