Today I just heard exactly what I was afraid of. That part 2 of the new storyline once again is in the form of Tactical Flashpoints.

While I understand the value of tacticals--you can easily get a group of any 4 and see the story, there is a very large problem in the replay value of these. I have 13 level 55 characters all in level 168 gear or better. A story mode flashpoint that can't be done until level 55 that doesn't drop anything useful and gives elite comms (which I have coming out of my ears on most of my 55's) is pretty much useless to me. The 2-part flashpoint storyline I have played exactly twice--once on Imp side and once on Republic side. And the reason is that to do them requires a time commitment of approximately 2 hours and I get practically nothing out of it except having completed it on another toon. I'm not alone in this. We have more and more guild members/OPs team members leaving the game until there is more "new content"--which these tactical flashpoints don't count as to draw them back to the game.

If there were at least a Hard Mode FP version of these in addition, that would be something new and challenging. You potentially could even make the HM versions a new tier, like Lost Island was at one time.

But what we REALLY need is more story in the form of Operations--not new modes for operations. Please when you are continuing to develop new content and story in the future produce stuff that has actual replay value and that will draw people back in to the game.

Well, as someone who hasn't done a single operation yet, I really don't want to see them focus the stories in ops. When a large portion of the player base who plays for the stories doesn't do raids, it doesn't make sense to me to end main story arcs in operations. It prevents too many players from enjoying the core of the game.

I think that is why Bioware is struggling so hard trying to make group content more tempting to solo players. They want everyone to enjoy the stories, but not everyone likes grouping. Their two birds with one stone attempts are leaving both groups unsatisfied.

I'm totally for new raids for raiders and new hard mode fps for well-geared players who like a challenge, but I, too, would prefer to see the actual story solo. If it's something important, something foreshadowing, I'd rather see it as solo content than a FP, even a tactical. I'd want to replay it on my alts, see the story more than a few times, experience everything at my own pace.

Btw, selling elite BoE mods for commendations and then selling them on GTN for credits seems like a fine idea - otherwise those elite comms are indeed kind of meh, since raiders are going straight for ultimates, and soloers just don't get enough of these on different alts to buy whole pieces of gear.

And the reason is that to do them requires a time commitment of approximately 2 hours and I get practically nothing out of it except having completed it on another toon.

2 hours! You might be doing it wrong lol.

You guys know this is an mmo right? Experiencing the story together is one of the best parts. I remember my raid team flipping out when kephess returned in TFB and then seeing the terror, epic times.

If society has convinced you that it's best to experience life alone, you've taken a good step by playing video games, just dont choose a game where developers specifically design content for players to interact in and with other people. Would I like to see more ops, yes. But if that's all the game was we'd have problems. This is just one more chapter in creating game depth. It won't appeal to everyone but it will to some. So before you start complaining about what doesn't excite you, think about how this is a good thing. At least we're getting something right?

You guys know this is an mmo right? Experiencing the story together is one of the best parts.

Actually, it's an MMORPG. So some would argue that the RP is "one of the best parts" -- yet not everyone does that. Should we keep throwing the fact that not everyone RPs in their face? The fact that "it's an MMO" is a pretty tired argument these days given that it's known, industry-wide, that solo players are fast becoming a norm that companies have to account for. When you add in a heavy story-driven element, that focus on the solo player simply intensifies.

Some people don't like to "experience the story together." Some like to experience it on their own, at their own pace, or without having to wait for groups. I happen to be one of them. I like that there is group content for people. I like that there is story-content for people. What I'd like is for it not to be necessary to conflate those two things. As an option to conflate them: fine. Having it forced: not so fine.

If society has convinced you that it's best to experience life alone, you've taken a good step by playing video games, just dont choose a game where developers specifically design content for players to interact in and with other people.

I'm sorry but it's ridiculous in the extreme to correlate "I want to experience a story-driven game solo" with "it's best to experience life alone." Seriously? You equate "experiencing life" with "experiencing some story content in a game alone"? That's apples and oranges, if I've ever seen it.

Much of (in fact, all of) the class stories in this game are designed to be done alone. So by your logic, much of this game has been designed where people *do not* have to interact with others. I think it's at least arguable that SWTOR is largely a single-player game with an MMO tacked on rather than the reverse. In that case, which group made the "wrong choice" to play?

The fact is SWTOR is one of the more heavily story-driven games out there that just so happens to be an MMO. What everyone is learning is that this balance is not easy to achieve among a player base that comes to such a game. You will have people who prefer to experience such games in different ways. The ideal situation would be for BioWare to recognize that, offering specific experiences for each type of player. How would they do that? I would imagine there are many ways. *That* would be a much better discussion than the tired old "This is an MMO!" discussion.

2 hours! You might be doing it wrong lol.

 

You guys know this is an mmo right? Experiencing the story together is one of the best parts. I remember my raid team flipping out when kephess returned in TFB and then seeing the terror, epic times.

 

If society has convinced you that it's best to experience life alone, you've taken a good step by playing video games, just dont choose a game where developers specifically design content for players to interact in and with other people. Would I like to see more ops, yes. But if that's all the game was we'd have problems. This is just one more chapter in creating game depth. It won't appeal to everyone but it will to some. So before you start complaining about what doesn't excite you, think about how this is a good thing. At least we're getting something right?

I'm not going to re-cover the ground Jeff covered, but I"m going to stress a few points.

1. Enjoying group content and enjoying shared story are separate things. I enjoy pvp and I don't mind grouping up for dailies, world bosses or the odd flashpoint here and there, but I don't like sharing cut-scenes with random people. I don't like having to abide by their choices and I don't like feeling rushed. I like making my own choices, and exiting out if I'm not happy with the results. Sometimes I like redoing scenes for screenshots. (And I have zero interest in taking screen shots with random strangers!)

2. I don't think putting the main story in a raid is a good thing. That doesn't mean I think they should stop making operations and that doesn't mean I think operations shouldn't have stories. What I do mean is that the main story should be readily available for every player, which boils down to solo questing. I believe they had it right when group content had engaging stories that were separate from the main story.

3. I assume you mean by "at least we are getting something", you mean that any content is better than no content. Hard to argue that. However, finishing Forged Alliances with an operation follows the same pattern as Oricon. I believe that is a very bad road to go down. Regularly excluding a large section of the playerbase from the conclusion of major story arcs can't be good for the long term health of the game. (Imagine if you will if every new operation concluded with having a pvp battle over the final boss. It's a similar scenario.)

You guys know this is an mmo right? Experiencing the story together is one of the best parts.

Tell that to Captain Skip Cutscene™ and his Spacebar Marines!

However, finishing Forged Alliances with an operation follows the same pattern as Oricon. I believe that is a very bad road to go down.

I really really disagree with this statement.

I spent many hours enjoying all of the storylines solo play offered. The draw of "finding out what happens" encouraged me to play every single class storyline in the game, all planetary quests, and all side quests. There is a truly epic amount of story to see as a purely solo player.

The fact that the Dread Masters arc (which I started on the Belsavis planetary quest line) picked up in operations made me want to try operations. And so I did. I thoroughly appreciate the fact that there is a mix of both solo and group storytelling. This game caters to BOTH types of players.

I hope this trend continues. It's a GOOD thing.

Proof positive that...

you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

I'm fine with them for people to experience the story, just wish hm came out at same time for people looking for more of a challenge.

^^That.^^

I not too fussed about the story being introduced through TFPs --in fact, I'd prefer if it was done through explicitly solo'able content, myself-- as long as we get proper hard-modes for the FPs in due course.

(The two new TFPs are beyond brain-dead easy now that the Champion-level mobs are down to Elites, and the Elites are down to Strongs since the last patch. If not for certain boss mechanics, and their massive health-pools, they'd be totally solo'able for a well-geared 55 and companion.)

^^That.^^

 

I not too fussed about the story being introduced through TFPs --in fact, I'd prefer if it was done through explicitly solo'able content, myself-- as long as we get proper hard-modes for the FPs in due course.

 

(The two new TFPs are beyond brain-dead easy now that the Champion-level mobs are down to Elites, and the Elites are down to Strongs since the last patch. If not for certain boss mechanics, and their massive health-pools, they'd be totally solo'able for a well-geared 55 and companion.)

Don't worry I'm positive our "new" hm's for the expansion. Will korrbiin tython and water world. I wouldn't grind the tacticals to much

(The two new TFPs are beyond brain-dead easy now that the Champion-level mobs are down to Elites, and the Elites are down to Strongs since the last patch. If not for certain boss mechanics, and their massive health-pools, they'd be totally solo'able for a well-geared 55 and companion.)

They were already.

The day they came out (technically that evening) I waltzed in with my PT and solo'd both, no guides, no PTS experience. The most difficult thing about each was recognising when to put Mako on passive. If they were dumbed down even further . . . ? God help us.

-----

As far as the whole "I want to be able to see all of the story with virtually no effort required on my part in any capacity, whether that be mechanical skill, class knowledge, or gearing" business. Thats just stupid. The main draw of a MMO is supposed to be the large, challenging group content. And I do mean large group. The original raids in wow? 40 person groups required. Im not sure I can put together a 40 person group of competent people on my entire server. 8 or 16 people is kinda paltry, but fortunate given how badly the game flopped.

Why is it these days that people feel like they are entitled to every single aspect of the game whether they are capable of achieving it, or not? It used to be, a game developer would respond to cries of, "Waaaah, its not fair that I cant do XYZ, because Im bad/antisocial/dont have the time/am just looking for the spiritual equivalent of Spider solitaire," with, "Yes, it is, thats the point. Go get better." Nowadays they feel like they have to mollycoddle because everyone is on the 'instant gratification with zero effort' train.

Ill probably end up on a 5 paragraph rant that will basically boil down to: WoW's success pushed the MMO market in to the mainstream resulting in the types of people who should be playing something like Call of Duty 59:'Insert military jargon here" or solitaire thinking they needed to play MMOs. This resulted in software studios feeling like they had to cater to "casuals" (read: lazy people who want everything with no effort, not actual casual players) and then forcing the game developers to dumb their games down (Ex. Activision > Blizzard). Blah Blah Blah, etc, the rest of the point should follow very clearly.

So, instead, Ill just stop with the above and then say this: Story Arcs need to conclude with operations grade content. If you arent good enough to do ops, too bad, go get better. If you cant find at least 7 other people willing to tolerate your presence long enough to do it, too bad, go adjust your attitude or something. If you dont feel like you should have to invest any time or effort in effectively beating the game, what the *bleep* are you doing in an mmo in the first place?

I really don't see why the paradigm must always be:

Harder content ---> always requires larger group?

It's been proven --I misremember the link/s, but it is/they are out there-- that most people who play MMOs now do so in large part solo for at least a significant proportion of their playtime.

So why not have really difficult, solo and small-group content?

Complex --as in Operations-level-- mechanics, big health-pools, long, tense fights with multiple phases, mistake = immediate death + heavy repair bill, the whole deal. Just like in an Op., only you don't have to herd 7 or 15 other cats --that's assuming you can get them together in the first place-- and you don't have to worry about some stupid Marau-durrrrrrr wiping out all your progress in one GCD.

Options. More are always better in a proper MMO.

So why not have really difficult, solo and small-group content?

 

Complex --as in Operations-level-- mechanics, big health-pools, long, tense fights with multiple phases, mistake = immediate death + heavy repair bill, the whole deal. Just like in an Op., only you don't have to herd 7 or 15 other cats --that's assuming you can get them together in the first place-- and you don't have to worry about some stupid Marau-durrrrrrr wiping out all your progress in one GCD.

 

Options. More are always better in a proper MMO.

We were starting to go this direction with HM Lost Island, when we had "Tier 2 Flashpoints".

It would have been neat to have new easier flashpoints added as Tier 1, and new harder flashpoints added as Tier 2. Alas, far too many people complained and complained and complained about how hard LI was.

So:

1. HM LI was nerfed 3 times

2. The whole concept of "Tier 1" and "Tier 2" content was thrown out the window

3. All new FPs added since March 2013 have been at or below the original HM FPs in terms of difficulty.

4. All new FPs added since August 2013 have been tacticals.

5. All new FPs added since Feb 2014 have not even had HMs versions of the tacticals.

It's an unfortunate trend. Between the release of HM LI and today, 27 months have passed.

I can always hope for the future, but I won't hold my breath.

Today I just heard exactly what I was afraid of. That part 2 of the new storyline once again is in the form of Tactical Flashpoints.

Is there a source for this?

Is there a source for this?

Yea on pts the new manann flashpoint

Ah, OK.

Well, as long as some for real and new (i.e., not just made mo' 'harderer') flashpoints and operations DO come along, and hopefully in 3.0, then I am OK with the STORY being in TFPs.

If the Fractured Alliance (?) story TFPs are made into no-kidding Trinity HMFPs that'll be nice too.

Word this.

I love KDY but I want a decent challenge where, if there are facerolling yahoos in your group, you can justifiably kick them after they get you killed. HM versions of current tacticals or riot!

Let's have some more actual planets, too. I'm slightly disappointed that Manaan will only be a FP. Can't we get a daily zone too or something?

They were already.

 

The day they came out (technically that evening) I waltzed in with my PT and solo'd both, no guides, no PTS experience. The most difficult thing about each was recognising when to put Mako on passive. If they were dumbed down even further . . . ? God help us.

 

-----

 

As far as the whole "I want to be able to see all of the story with virtually no effort required on my part in any capacity, whether that be mechanical skill, class knowledge, or gearing" business. Thats just stupid. The main draw of a MMO is supposed to be the large, challenging group content. And I do mean large group. The original raids in wow? 40 person groups required. Im not sure I can put together a 40 person group of competent people on my entire server. 8 or 16 people is kinda paltry, but fortunate given how badly the game flopped.

 

Why is it these days that people feel like they are entitled to every single aspect of the game whether they are capable of achieving it, or not? It used to be, a game developer would respond to cries of, "Waaaah, its not fair that I cant do XYZ, because Im bad/antisocial/dont have the time/am just looking for the spiritual equivalent of Spider solitaire," with, "Yes, it is, thats the point. Go get better." Nowadays they feel like they have to mollycoddle because everyone is on the 'instant gratification with zero effort' train.

 

Ill probably end up on a 5 paragraph rant that will basically boil down to: WoW's success pushed the MMO market in to the mainstream resulting in the types of people who should be playing something like Call of Duty 59:'Insert military jargon here" or solitaire thinking they needed to play MMOs. This resulted in software studios feeling like they had to cater to "casuals" (read: lazy people who want everything with no effort, not actual casual players) and then forcing the game developers to dumb their games down (Ex. Activision > Blizzard). Blah Blah Blah, etc, the rest of the point should follow very clearly.

 

So, instead, Ill just stop with the above and then say this: Story Arcs need to conclude with operations grade content. If you arent good enough to do ops, too bad, go get better. If you cant find at least 7 other people willing to tolerate your presence long enough to do it, too bad, go adjust your attitude or something. If you dont feel like you should have to invest any time or effort in effectively beating the game, what the *bleep* are you doing in an mmo in the first place?

You have a very narrow idea of what an MMO is. You also have very narrow ideas about other people. There are very skilled, hard working players who prefer soloing, just as there are bad, lazy players who raid. There are very social soloers, just as there are very anti-social raiders. I know it's very hard to think past yourself to try and understand other peoples' perspectives instead of insulting them because they are different from you, but it is worth the effort.

I am curious why do you feel the main story should be a raid reward? (Why should it be a "reward" at all?) Aren't the bis armors, mats, schematics, mounts, pets, titles, achievements and soon to be trophies enough? Do you really believe anything and everything good in the game should only be achieved by raiding? Do you not think there should be fun things for everyone to enjoy?

Do you view everything as a contest? The idea of "beating" a story is just utterly bizarre to me. Is the idea of playing a game just for fun as bizarre to you? How do you judge when someone "wins" at role play, you know the other half of MMORPG?

yes because the only way anyone should get more story is via ops which a lot of people either dont do or have trouble doing, and the h4rdc0r3 people spacebar through it anyways because epeen is a valid method of expressing any sort of creative content or storytelling....

right.....

tacs are the best way to do story if it must be in flashpoints so everyone, and not just mr epeen spacebar cowboy can actually go through it

Tactical flashpoints are always one of two things: an absurdist facerolling jaunt, or a half-hour painful meditation on how some players ever get to max level playing as badly as they do. Neither situation fills me with any sense that I am participating in an epic story as it unfolds.

Please, no more tacticals. If your skill or tolerance of other people is so low that you cannot master anything more difficult, be it a normal flashpoint or SM operation, you are welcome to watch videos of the content on Youtube or read a synopsis.

And you have a very self-serving way of reading. This thread is about why constantly throwing in tactical flashpoints as "game content updates" is bad and the kind of prevailing attitude that causes it.

Its not about your little "OMG Diversity!" speech and its definitely not about the melodramatic trash that people try and pass off as "RP" in this game.

It also doesnt matter how much you try to obfuscate and smokescreen with irrelevant comments about there being social-soloers (***?) or antisocial-raiders (also ***?). A person's playing style preferences have precisely jack to do with this. Although, you really have to wonder why someone wants to play an MMO but tries to treat it like a single player game, and then gets all huffy when there isnt single player endgame content created just for them.

... via ops which a lot of people either dont do or have trouble doing ...

This, right here is the problem. And whats the cause of the problem? Tons of people playing the game who (and there is no other way to put this) should not be. And these people dont seem to have any willingness to put forth the tiniest smidgen of effort. They want everything handed to them gift wrapped and on a silver platter and they want it now. If they cant do something? Well, thats a FLAW with the game, CLEARLY nothing to do with them.

And whats the cause of the problem? Tons of people playing the game who (and there is no other way to put this) should not be. And these people dont seem to have any willingness to put forth the tiniest smidgen of effort. They want everything handed to them gift wrapped and on a silver platter and they want it now. If they cant do something? Well, thats a FLAW with the game, CLEARLY nothing to do with them.

and who are you again? the self appointed arbiter of who should or should not play a game? seriously? your logic is flawed, because it can be turned around and people can say well people who only want to have a certain mode of gameplay should be off playing other games, and they shouldn't be here. you are probably too narrowminded to understand how ridiculous the argument really is.

fact is, the tacs give more people the avenue to experience the content, and that is not a bad thing. gating so that it can only be done in an op is foolish and a bad business model.

you really shouldn't generalize either, by saying people who dont raid are not skilled or have no clue, it makes you look as much of a doorknob as the people who really are clueless