ALERT: This is not meant to target any particular individual, but just a general observation of mine.

WARNING: This is neither a QQ thread nor am I quitting so no, my stuff is mine and it will remain so.

Coming straight to the point, why do some people try to compare SWToR to some other MMO at some other time? I cannot for the life of me understand how it makes sense. You CANNOT, I repeat, you CAN NEVER compare swtor to wow vanilla nor to cataclysm.

Let me give an example to show how incredibly foolish this notion is:

Say there are two cell phone manufacturing companies, company A and company B.

Company A is established and has been running for 10 years. Company B is brand new. Both companies have released smart phones but company A's phone has 10 fully functional features while company B's has a couple of buggy, unfinished features. Would you still buy company B's phone because the company is new?

Now lets compare blizzard and bioware.

Blizzard and bioware are both experienced gaming companies. WoW is an MMO that's been running for years now while SWToR is only a few months old. But does that mean you're gonna automatically dismiss anyone who complains by saying vanilla WoW was full of bugs, had barely any content and wasn't as polished as it is now?

How can you possibly expect an average gamer to put up with so many bugs when the market has other products with a smoother gameplay?

While I understand that this is their first ever MMO, Bioware isn't a novice in making games. I also understand SWToR cannot have as much content as cataclysm WoW has, however there are some minimum expectations every gamer has from any MMO. For example, I expect it to run smoothly with very few bugs and have something for me to do without boring me to death. (Hence I stay, hoping they can fix the bugs and load times).

MMO gaming is not a new concept anymore. There are a handful MMOs out there with a few really good ones (yes, beside WoW). So if you think Bioware, or any other company, is gonna get away with the 'new-in-business excuse' then you are wrong. An average gamer doesn't think that way, nor should they be expected to.

TLDR: If you are still comparing SWToR with vanilla WoW, think again because you may be wrong. If you are comparing SWToR with cataclysm WoW... you're still wrong.

I agree you should not compare this game to other games directly.

The only thing with swtor is the missing aspects that many thought would be included, ie chat bubbles, sitting down in chairs. Basic fundamentals that just were left out completely.

Its like if i offered to make a taco, you would assume it would have a shell, some meat, lettuce and tomato.

It does not matter if the taco is from tacobell or La Super-Rica. The fundamental basis would be the same.

If i gave you a taco and it was a shell with only lettuce, you might feel dissapointed.

True i never promised any meat or cheese, but in your mind you expected the all the basics.

I agree with you totally, but what I find funny is that, before the game launch, everyone is saying: oh this game is going to be a wow killer, but after they saw it, people start saying: oh it's stupid for you to compare it with wow, wow was here for so long...

I mean. If you are going to be a wow killer, you better BE better than wow, lol.

I agree you should not compare this game to other games directly.

 

The only thing with swtor is the missing aspects that many thought would be included, ie chat bubbles, sitting down in chairs. Basic fundamentals that just were left out completely.

 

Its like if i offered to make a taco, you would assume it would have a shell, some meat, lettuce and tomato.

 

It does not matter if the taco is from tacobell or La Super-Rica. The fundamental basis would be the same.

 

If i gave you a taco and it was a shell with only lettuce, you might feel dissapointed.

 

True i never promised any meat or cheese, but in your mind you expected the all the basics.

This is a really good example. A lot of people were expecting certain things and they weren't delivered. MMO players brought MMO expectations and didn't get what they think are fundamentals. In the MMO market, it's pretty important to cater to MMO players. Non-MMO players will buy the game, but won't hold a subscription. It's a good idea to take the advice from MMO players to see what you need to work on.

As for OP's comments, I don't agree with comparing other games to TOR either, but on the basis that they are different games, made by different companies, and they have different goals. TOR is a story-driven MMO. The meat of kirorx' metaphorical taco is in the story and the levelling experience. It's not intended to be in the endgame, the level 50 PvP, or having a gazillion Operations to do. All that is the cheese, the lettuce, the tomato, the taco sauce, and other delicious metaphorical ingredients.

To me, it doesn't seem that MMO players were able to grasp that concept despite BioWare's best efforts to inform (or warn in some people's cases) that this game is a story-driven MMO. This led to MMO players creating their own expectations on something that wasn't going to be there. That led to MMO players being disappointed and going back to whatever game they were playing (and/or complaining on the forums).

I like the game a great deal. I enjoy the combat, I enjoy the stories, and I enjoy the way it looks. I also enjoy that this game is somewhat evolving with me as an MMO player. This is my first MMO, so I feel like the game is adding more MMO features as I become more like an MMO player due to how the game has been developed since launch. More veteran MMO players had much more drastic expectations for a game being released in the MMO genre and they weren't met. Oh well. The best I can say is that this isn't the game for you or at least not yet.

I agree with you totally, but what I find funny is that, before the game launch, everyone is saying: oh this game is going to be a wow killer, but after they saw it, people start saying: oh it's stupid for you to compare it with wow, wow was here for so long...

 

I mean. If you are going to be a wow killer, you better BE better than wow, lol.

TOR might very well be the wow killer they all said it was going to be. Just not yet, the apprentice is not ready to kill the master

This is a really good example. A lot of people were expecting certain things and they weren't delivered. MMO players brought MMO expectations and didn't get what they think are fundamentals. In the MMO market, it's pretty important to cater to MMO players. Non-MMO players will buy the game, but won't hold a subscription. It's a good idea to take the advice from MMO players to see what you need to work on.

 

As for OP's comments, I don't agree with comparing other games to TOR either, but on the basis that they are different games, made by different companies, and they have different goals. TOR is a story-driven MMO. The meat of kirorx' metaphorical taco is in the story and the levelling experience. It's not intended to be in the endgame, the level 50 PvP, or having a gazillion Operations to do. All that is the cheese, the lettuce, the tomato, the taco sauce, and other delicious metaphorical ingredients.

 

To me, it doesn't seem that MMO players were able to grasp that concept despite BioWare's best efforts to inform (or warn in some people's cases) that this game is a story-driven MMO. This led to MMO players creating their own expectations on something that wasn't going to be there. That led to MMO players being disappointed and going back to whatever game they were playing (and/or complaining on the forums).

 

I like the game a great deal. I enjoy the combat, I enjoy the stories, and I enjoy the way it looks. I also enjoy that this game is somewhat evolving with me as an MMO player. This is my first MMO, so I feel like the game is adding more MMO features as I become more like an MMO player due to how the game has been developed since launch. More veteran MMO players had much more drastic expectations for a game being released in the MMO genre and they weren't met. Oh well. The best I can say is that this isn't the game for you or at least not yet.

I agrre with your comment, i was one that wasn't able to grasp the "story driven MMO" concept.

SWTORis my second MMO so i guess you could call me a newbie, and when they annoucened that it would be a story driven MMO i assumed that ment a normal MMO but with a little more emphises on story not an MMO that is based almost soley on story.

My mistake.

ALERT: This is not meant to target any particular individual, but just a general observation of mine.

WARNING: This is neither a QQ thread nor am I quitting so no, my stuff is mine and it will remain so.

 

Coming straight to the point, why do some people try to compare SWToR to some other MMO at some other time? I cannot for the life of me understand how it makes sense. You CANNOT, I repeat, you CAN NEVER compare swtor to wow vanilla nor to cataclysm.

 

.

Stopped reading there

couple points...

QQ is not a word and despite your false claims otherwise, useing the term is actually a deragetory statement meant to insult and enflame. Your disclaimer is nothing more then someone saying "I wont call anyone stupid but joe here is "bleeping" stupid.

If you want to use insults in your openng 2 paragraphs, least have the kahonies to stand by your insults.

As for comparing to other MMOs

You know WOW didnt come in flavours and there is no hard mode WOW.

Opening day it was tagged as "A MMO on training wheels". So Im always lost when you all try to make the starting wOW to be different then the later WOW. Its WOW, its mind numbingly easy mode from start to finish and always has been.

But anyways, of course TOR will be compared to other MMOs.

Its compared to WOW because it gets a failing mark on challenge, difficulty, level speed.

On those topics, it really is WOW in space.

It lacks the complex nature of earlier era MMORPGs and is suffering the exact same fate that every post WOW MMO (that copied the fast and sloppy MMO design) has suffered.

People like to throw out the "but you have to make games for the casuals who want everything free and easy".

You do not because those casuals never stay loyal to any MMO. They are NOT the target audience that should be designed for. Doesnt matter if game is WOW easy or EQ hard. Those casuals will buy game and quit with in 3 months. Smarter designers would realize this and design for the target audience that will stay for years. They are the ones that will support the game long term. Not the casuals that want to be max level in a week but not actually play the game to do it.

Which leads us to other MMOs.

ALOT of MMOs have done things right in places so you MOST DEFINATELY compare TOR to those other MMOs and show eA how to do something right!

PVP? Look at early (pre RAs) DAoC

Crafting? Look at EQ2 (only a small minority want SWG crafting back)

Housing? Again EQ2

Community? EA would be smart to look at the first MMORPG made (NeverWInter Nights on AOL circa 1991-97)

Expansion? Original EQ is the allmighty god on this front

PVE Content? Rift had excellent pve with their public grouping system

Character customization (look and changing look of character)? SWG wins this one hands down

Advertising? This is the ONLY DEPT WOW wins at. Far as game play, many other games did it all much better and far more complete.

FACT is you compare a particular design to what is considered the MMO that did that particular design the best. Does TOR stand up to the MMO best? What did the other MMO do that TOR not doing.

And if you find yourself comparing TOR to WOW, that just means you dont have enough knowledge or experience in the genre to make a accurate comparrisson.

Of course you compare.

I agree you should not compare this game to other games directly.

 

The only thing with swtor is the missing aspects that many thought would be included, ie chat bubbles, sitting down in chairs. Basic fundamentals that just were left out completely.

 

Its like if i offered to make a taco, you would assume it would have a shell, some meat, lettuce and tomato.

 

It does not matter if the taco is from tacobell or La Super-Rica. The fundamental basis would be the same.

 

If i gave you a taco and it was a shell with only lettuce, you might feel dissapointed.

 

True i never promised any meat or cheese, but in your mind you expected the all the basics.

This pretty much sums it up. Best reply yet in this thread.

OP..it is human nature to compare things to each other in the world. If I go out to buy a TV , I donot expect them to be like the old ones were, but how they are now. If I go on vacation someplace and then the next year go to a different place, you will compare those two places to each other. And make up your mind which was better and why. Same goes for MMO's.

uhm, why do people always bring up chat bubbles and sitting in chairs? Seriously? Those are features people want? I really could care less

Lots of games have this, it's really important for any sort of RP'ing to take place.

Lots of games have this, it's really important for any sort of RP'ing to take place.

as someone who has done RP'in in mmos... neither of those features were very necessary during our RP sessions. I get that they would be a nice addition, but I have seen complaints around the forums for those like they are essential features. Honestly, chat bubbles, I will just turn off. Sitting in chairs, I will do maybe 3 times a month.

I would prefer other things, like pazaak and lots of fun mini games, more raids, leveling content.

those two things...... not that great.

I supsect part of the problem is a lot of seasoned MMORPG players want a game that is, out of the box, best in class for everything. The game was so built up, for so long, and expectations (SW! MMORPG with a story!! Voice acting! Bioware!!) were naturally high - when it turned out to have the problems that baby MMORPGs often have, and a long development curve, people's hopes were a teeny bit dashed.

So, some people say with the weight of decades of MMORPG experience behind them, "Right - I want the PvP from Bunnies'n'burrows(*), the trading system from Wall Street (*), the crafting system from SpaceNinjas(*), the ship combat from PewPewBang(*), housing just like SimMansion(*) before the Annexe(*) expansion, the chaises lounges from Rococo Blast(*) and if SWTOR had these it would be the Best Game Evah, but as it is, it's a total abject failure and I'm Very Sad and not hanging around."

No one system is going to please everyone, and the bits of a MMORPG have to work together. They also adapt over time, I hope, and I say that as someone who, even this far in, is really enjoying the game. It's far from perfect, but it's early days.

And what is "the best" is debatable. Let's suppose Bioware and EA went "The people have spoken: we must take our inspiration from these exemplary games and implement all these fine ideas."

Veteran MMORPG players would then go "Bunnies'n'burrows (*) style PvP?? Really? All that effort for THAT?? You'd think EA would have learned their lesson and gone with a model more like Losing is for Losers(*); it's much better."

(*) Not actually games, much less MMORPGs, to the best of my knowledge.

Comparing ToR at launch with any other MMO is not easy, it was unpolished and got released to soon and only survived the first month because of the INSANE hype. Not much to compare there at all since it was all hype. Everybody was excited and wanted to play the revolutionary StarWars MMO that just came out on the market. Many of my friends bought a copy, nobody plays anymore except me so I know first hand.

Now, if we compare the state it should have been released in like 1.2 or 1.3 it stands out to most of the MMOs on the market. There are a diveristy of things to do like long storylinequest and storylike flashpoints and some raids.

When they polished and changed PvP recently it also became fun, letting level 50s play in the same bracket was one of the parts that really needed to be with the game from the start.

The main reason that many left ToR is frustration that things never worked as intended the way the players were promised in different movies and previews about the game. They really shaped that up in 1.2 and 1.3 and hopefully there are some devs left to make 1.4 but I am not sure about 1.5 or further down the line.

I am more sad about what this came could have become if done right, now it seems to consist of lots and lots of downtime and almost zero communication from those that develop it.

I will be around for a little longer, it all depends on what they do now in august and if that is a silent month I will check out what other games tempts my wallet and hope ToR shapes up under new management or something,

it's called standards.. games set standards by doing certain things right. now it's just plain foolish to not learn from the success of others while still building a unique Identity.. Rift did an amazing job at this. BW had an excellent opportunity to do this but for some unknown reason did not take and implement basic standards (features and mechanics) from other, proven games while using an amazing story element and over-the-top voice acting to make it unique.

the taco reference was by far the best analogy made concerning this.

this is what made this game a disappointment to many.. my self included.

There's another side to that comparison though...

For some reason people insist on presenting WoW as some sort of perfectly functional paragon of gaming perfection. I played WoW from release til the end of Wrath, and it's a deeply flawed game riddled with frequent bugs and issues ranging from the trivial to the game-breaking, and Blizzard is famously slow in implementing changes. I'm not saying the game wasn't fun, but it's dishonest to pretend it was flawless.

And TOR has improved on a number of WoW's shortcomings. Instead of a repetitive grind from 1 to max level where you kill essentially the same mob thousands of times, there are actual class stories and varied combat that makes leveling much more engaging. In WoW crafting was a miserable grind people did to get profession bonuses for raiding. Crafting here has its issues, but at least it doesn't require you to fly around in circles for hours looking for mats.

Edit: And before someone claims that WoW's become perfect since I quit, I hopped over to their forums and found this gem:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6202121067

Its like if i offered to make a taco, you would assume it would have a shell, some meat, lettuce and tomato.

 

It does not matter if the taco is from tacobell or La Super-Rica. The fundamental basis would be the same.

 

If i gave you a taco and it was a shell with only lettuce, you might feel dissapointed.

 

True i never promised any meat or cheese, but in your mind you expected the all the basics.

This was covered in the OP. It's called a minimum set of expectations of a player for the MMO. That was yours. Although I would recommend trying to broaden your prospective on MMOs. MMOs don't necessarily need to have anything in common except stability and smooth performance.

ALERT: This is not meant to target any particular individual, but just a general observation of mine.

WARNING: This is neither a QQ thread nor am I quitting so no, my stuff is mine and it will remain so.

 

Coming straight to the point, why do some people try to compare SWToR to some other MMO at some other time? I cannot for the life of me understand how it makes sense. You CANNOT, I repeat, you CAN NEVER compare swtor to wow vanilla nor to cataclysm.

 

Let me give an example to show how incredibly foolish this notion is:

 

Say there are two cell phone manufacturing companies, company A and company B.

Company A is established and has been running for 10 years. Company B is brand new. Both companies have released smart phones but company A's phone has 10 fully functional features while company B's has a couple of buggy, unfinished features. Would you still buy company B's phone because the company is new?

.

Bad analogy. Customers doesn't care about how old is a company, they will compare both phones and they will buy the one that is better than the other, aka, the one that is bug free and with more features. If company B is so stupid to try to sell a bugged phone with no features or unfinushed ones, customers will realized that sooner or later and stop buying such "crap". Even the newest phone company will sell smartphones capable of send SMSs, SWTORs lacks as basic features, as SMS is for smartphones, like guild mass mails.

What results incredibly foolish is not expect the game to be compared with other MMOs, specially WoW, when its mimicking, or trying to mimic, WoW mechanichs and gameplay in an attempt to be as successfull as WoW.

What is incredibly foolish is not expect the game to be compare with the privous Star Wars MMO, specially when that said MMO is closed the very same day SWTOR is released to not compete with SWTOR.

What is incredibly foolish is not expect any MMO to be compare with any other MMO when it is a product that competes in a market; comparisons are always expected, for good or for bad. Is the nature of the market. And is the way customers have to decide if a product is worthy of their money or not.

Comparing ToR at launch with any other MMO is not easy, it was unpolished and got released to soon and only survived the first month because of the INSANE hype. Not much to compare there at all since it was all hype. Everybody was excited and wanted to play the revolutionary StarWars MMO that just came out on the market. Many of my friends bought a copy, nobody plays anymore except me so I know first hand.

It's funny you say that. Because to me and friends the launch of swtor was one of the smoothest and bugfree launches seen in an mmo till date. Sure feature wise it was lacking several of the essentials, but bugs? I hardly.came across them.

People keep talking about standards and expectations that SWTOR didn't meet, and I can't help but wonder ... then why did you buy it?

If sitting in chairs and having speech bubbles is important to you, why would you just take it on faith that a developer who has never made an MMO before would share YOUR opinions on what should be included in it? And then get mad when it turns out they don't. I'm not saying these aren't things that should be in the game, I'm just saying I don't remember ever seeing any evidence suggesting they would be.

I read a bunch of reviews, previews, and forum posts about SWTOR before I bought it and tried to base all my expectations for the game around actual info, not what I felt like should be in an MMO, and it ended up being pretty much what I expected. There's plenty of stuff I wish SWTOR did that it doesn't, but there's nothing it doesn't do that I was expecting it to when I bought it.

Bad analogy. Customers doesn't care about how old is a company, they will compare both phones and they will buy the one that is better than the other, aka, the one that is bug free and with more features. If company B is so stupid to try to sell a bugged phone with no features or unfinushed ones, customers will realized that sooner or later and stop buying such "crap". Even the newest phone company will sell smartphones capable of send SMSs, SWTORs lacks as basic features, as SMS is for smartphones, like guild mass mails.

 

What results incredibly foolish is not expect the game to be compared with other MMOs, specially WoW, when its mimicking, or trying to mimic, WoW mechanichs and gameplay in an attempt to be as successfull as WoW.

 

What is incredibly foolish is not expect the game to be compare with the privous Star Wars MMO, specially when that said MMO is closed the very same day SWTOR is released to not compete with SWTOR.

 

What is incredibly foolish is not expect any MMO to be compare with any other MMO when it is a product that competes in a market; comparisons are always expected, for good or for bad. Is the nature of the market. And is the way customers have to decide if a product is worthy of their money or not.

Well, at least you agree with the initial half of my argument, while disagreeing with it (?). If you think these games have to be expected to be compared, then I still think you are wrong. Why? Because it is not fair to expect as much content or features. Or the same types of content/features. Just because SWToR uses the same default wasd keys and some other functionality and features common to WoW and other previous MMOs, doesn't automatically make it a WoW-clone.

So my grandfather died the same day I was born. Does that mean I have to behave like him? What kind of logic is that?

If you really want to compare two games of any genre, compare how challenging it is, compare how interesting it is, compare how smoothly it runs, compare how many bugs it has. Don't compare the gameplay mechanics or the amount of content it has. That's just plain foolish to me.

EDIT: I mean, ok you can compare, only to see how the games differ. Don't compare them to decide which one is better, that's not accurate which makes it wrong.

The best thing that could have happened on the Blizzard front was that utter abortion that was....the Diablo 3 release and first month.

They somehow managed to make Bioware look Pro by comparison. It really was laughable how awful that release and first few weeks were. From looking at the forums, it still looks pretty bad. I enjoyed that game for about a month, then was over it.

It's funny you say that. Because to me and friends the launch of swtor was one of the smoothest and bugfree launches seen in an mmo till date. Sure feature wise it was lacking several of the essentials, but bugs? I hardly.came across them.

There were plenty of bugs, maybe you should go back an read all the patch notes... on the other hand, there are still issues that aren't fixed yet, and almost every patch brings new bugs (since BioWare is too stupid to test all the patches).