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Didn't Luke use his emotions/anger to beat his Father?


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I'm playing back the movie where Luke Skywalker finally faces his Father. I'm re-looking at the entire clip. During it the Emperor taunts him and says

 

"Use your light saber and strike my down" Luke then try's to do just just. Darth Vader whips out his light saber just in time to block the attack. In which the Emperor laughs

 

-Wasn't Luke driven by his emotions anger. Striking down an unarmed man was not the Jedi way. Yet he tried to grab his light saber to do just that-

 

Second Example

 

When Darth Vader searches around the room for Luke. He say's "If you cannot be turned to the dark side maybe she will" then Luke surprises Vadar unleashes a fury of attacks knocking him down to the ground.

 

-That right there second example. He was concealed hiding untill then. Then he heard about his sister provoked by his emotions and used his light saber to beat his Father into submission. IMO he was driven by anger not peace. He was provoked, going on the offensive not the defensive.

 

Final Thought.

 

In his final battle with Darth Vadar would it be fair to say Luke used his anger/emotions AKA the dark side of the force to defeat his Father? sure his emotions worn down when he saw his dad was dying. Yet he didn't look like a person in control. He looked like he was driven by hate/anger those are sith traits.

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Regardless, he realised what he was doing when he disarmed his Father and in an act of loyalty to the Jedi, he threw away his only weapon.

 

Also, in reality the duel was not really a duel at all, because Vader was holding back and struggling with his emotions the entire time, Luke says as much later on that if Vader wanted to kill him, he'd be dead right now.

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Regardless, he realised what he was doing when he disarmed his Father and in an act of loyalty to the Jedi, he threw away his only weapon.

 

Also, in reality the duel was not really a duel at all, because Vader was holding back and struggling with his emotions the entire time, Luke says as much later on that if Vader wanted to kill him, he'd be dead right now.

 

^ This. A Sith who has killed countless Jedi versus a Jedi new comer who has never even dueled... Vader would have killed him if he was trying, but he couldn't bring himself to kill his son.

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Regardless, he realised what he was doing when he disarmed his Father and in an act of loyalty to the Jedi, he threw away his only weapon.

 

Also, in reality the duel was not really a duel at all, because Vader was holding back and struggling with his emotions the entire time, Luke says as much later on that if Vader wanted to kill him, he'd be dead right now.

 

I see what you did there. :D

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Which I find rather dumb, as it seems to me it undermines all the training he gone through but I digress and have to accept what Luke said.

 

I'd disagree. ROTJ makes a great point in stressing how potentially close Luke is to the Dark Side. Not in oblique ways but in ways that are notable enough. His actions during the duel with Vader become his final test. And he falters but then recovers.

 

Without a moment like this, the moment when he tosses down his lightsaber loses all narrative power. As it stands, that moment is the defining moment of his character and of the entire IPs philosophy and morality.

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I'd disagree. ROTJ makes a great point in stressing how potentially close Luke is to the Dark Side. Not in oblique ways but in ways that are notable enough. His actions during the duel with Vader become his final test. And he falters but then recovers.

 

Without a moment like this, the moment when he tosses down his lightsaber loses all narrative power. As it stands, that moment is the defining moment of his character and of the entire IPs philosophy and morality.

 

No I agree on that, but what irks me is that Luke said if Vader went all out he would have been flattened. Rest of its fine.

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Which I find rather dumb, as it seems to me it undermines all the training he gone through but I digress and have to accept what Luke said.

 

The training wasn't so much to make him a fighter, just to make him a Jedi, so he could resist the lure of the Dark Side.

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The training wasn't so much to make him a fighter, just to make him a Jedi, so he could resist the lure of the Dark Side.

 

Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

 

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

 

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?

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Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

 

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

 

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?

 

You're right that during most of the process he wasn't acting the way a Jedi should have. But he did in the end and that's what counts. Mace Windu, a renowned Jedi with considerable seniority was still going to strike down the Emperor after their duel, which is not the Jedi way. Luke did the reverse, intended to strike Vader/Sidious down, but in the end chose the right path.

 

As others said, he falters but does the right thing in the end. Jedi are not infallible, and the Jedi would be the first to mention that.

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The point of the entire conflict was to signalize the 'good triumphs over evil aspect'. Luke, being this young man put against incredible odds has to resist the temptation of darkness in order to bring peace to the galaxy, and during the epic struggle where generations collided (Father vs. Son vs. Master(sidious) ), Luke eventually managed to remain true to the light, although tempted through the emperors words, and managed to remain on a Jedi's path, albeit nearly falling to the darkside in the process (I.E, him, as so nicely pointed out, 'disarming' Vader).

 

That's simply the 'story' aspect of this.

 

Now, to make matters simple. Yes, Luke did resort to emotions and anger to beat his father. Or rather, emotions and fear ( due to the implication that they may simply take Leia for training) that alone send him over the edge. Now, at the end, witnessing where he was going (I.E, seconds before dealing the death-blow to his father), He obviously couldn't, and decided not to, in which turn he proved superior to the darksides allure (A darksider would've let those passions and emotions drive further, killing his enemy). That knocked him a few darkside points on his jedi score, sure, but nothing substantial as, in the end he 'was' defending himself. But don't take it too much to heart, just commiting one or two 'anger' influenced acts does not make you a sith, nor a darksider. It takes a long malevolence streak and submission to the darkside to be considered a dark jedi, and 'specific' darkside training to be considered a sith. Such as the specific ability to harness such passionate and negative emotions in a very specific way to draw power form them (it's actually a bit like a Chi concept, you can read about the proper details on that in one of the EU sourcebooks)

 

Long story short. Yes he 'succumbed' to his emotions, he managed to best his father in that moment of weakness, but that doesn't mean in any way he faltered to the darkside or became a darksider that moment. just means he's got a bit of dirt on an overall bright-white coat of jedi points. (well, except in a few EU chapters afterwards lmao)

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I hear people saying "He learned from it" the total fight happened in about 20 minutes maybe tops. So he learns from the Emperor himself that his plans to destroy the Sith have been thrown away. The Emperor jumps on his fears/ anger tells him if he wants too, to take the Light Saber and strike him down.

 

Luke trys to Strike him down but Darth Vadar blocks the attacks.

 

It's learned Darth Vadar could have destroyed him but was fighting with his own emotions. Darth Vadar jumps on Luke's fear that he would use his sister then Luke unleashes a fury of attacks defeating Vadar then realizing what he did stops and talks to him.

 

But it's okay for Luke to channel his anger/fear because he learned from it. Would it be fair to say that he used the Dark Side to make himself stronger, in that moment he defeated his Father he was not a Jedi. Yet he was a Sith.

 

He jumped on his Father and pretty much sliced him in half. He got that emotion from the fear his Father was saying "If you can't come to the dark side, maybe she will" only AFTER their duel was over and he was the winner, did he go to the Jedi way.

 

How is that much different when His own Father was confused about the light and dark the path. His Father as we all know picked the dark path. Had Luke not defeated his father and kept channeling his anger and not won wouldn't he had gone to the dark side?

 

Yes he did STOP. But again let's review only AFTER he won the duel His Father was defeated after he used his anger to surprise attack him.. What would have happended if He didn't win the duel and did he defeat his Father was a Jedi or using his emotions which made him stronger as a Sith?

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You really don't seem to be listening to what the others are telling you, but I'll take a stab:

 

Yes, he gave in and used the Force to get his lightsaber and strike down the Emperor. His friends were dying, the Rebel Alliance was being crushed and hope was being extinguished before his very eyes. His desperation caused him to give in. At that moment Vader's blade blocked him and he withdrew. He fought long enough to break away and hide to avoid the fight. He resisted the lure of the dark side.

 

Then Vader goads him again, suggesting that Luke's sister will join them. At that point yes, he used the dark side of the Force in the final battle with Vader. He yells "Never!" and attacks Vader ferociously. He beats him. He takes Vader's hand. And then he SEES Vader's severed wrist. The wires and the machinery. He looks at his own hand and sees how much like his father he already is. How his anger has just brought him to THIS POINT. How his impatience in the past has already cost him. And the Emperor is laughing and telling him to kill his father and take his place at the Emperor's side.

 

And at this point, he pulls away from the dark side and does what his father couldn't do before him. He renounces that darkness, throws away his own lightsaber, commits to the light side of the force and accepts his own fate, even if it means he dies.

 

He is a Jedi. Like his father before him. But better.

Edited by ThunderVamp
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I hear people saying "He learned from it" the total fight happened in about 20 minutes maybe tops. So he learns from the Emperor himself that his plans to destroy the Sith have been thrown away. The Emperor jumps on his fears/ anger tells him if he wants too, to take the Light Saber and strike him down.

 

Luke trys to Strike him down but Darth Vadar blocks the attacks.

 

It's learned Darth Vadar could have destroyed him but was fighting with his own emotions. Darth Vadar jumps on Luke's fear that he would use his sister then Luke unleashes a fury of attacks defeating Vadar then realizing what he did stops and talks to him.

 

But it's okay for Luke to channel his anger/fear because he learned from it. Would it be fair to say that he used the Dark Side to make himself stronger, in that moment he defeated his Father he was not a Jedi. Yet he was a Sith.

 

He jumped on his Father and pretty much sliced him in half. He got that emotion from the fear his Father was saying "If you can't come to the dark side, maybe she will" only AFTER their duel was over and he was the winner, did he go to the Jedi way.

 

How is that much different when His own Father was confused about the light and dark the path. His Father as we all know picked the dark path. Had Luke not defeated his father and kept channeling his anger and not won wouldn't he had gone to the dark side?

 

Yes he did STOP. But again let's review only AFTER he won the duel His Father was defeated after he used his anger to surprise attack him.. What would have happended if He didn't win the duel and did he defeat his Father was a Jedi or using his emotions which made him stronger as a Sith?

 

I must have stated that poorly, I meant that he learned that it wasn't a good thing to let his emotions get the better of him. While he did wrong what is important is the fact that he took that experience to better himself as a person.

Edited by Tuscad
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You really don't seem to be listening to what the others are telling you, but I'll take a stab:

 

Yes, he gave in and used the Force to get his lightsaber and strike down the Emperor. His friends were dying, the Rebel Alliance was being crushed and hope was being extinguished before his very eyes. His desperation caused him to give in. At that moment Vader's blade blocked him and he withdrew. He fought long enough to break away and hide to avoid the fight. He resisted the lure of the dark side.

 

Then Vader goads him again, suggesting that Luke's sister will join them. At that point yes, he used the dark side of the Force in the final battle with Vader. He yells "Never!" and attacks Vader ferociously. He beats him. He takes Vader's hand. And then he SEES Vader's severed wrist. The wires and the machinery. He looks at his own hand and sees how much like his father he already is. How his anger has just brought him to THIS POINT. How his impatience in the past has already cost him. And the Emperor is laughing and telling him to kill his father and take his place at the Emperor's side.

 

And at this point, he pulls away from the dark side and does what his father couldn't do before him. He renounces that darkness, throws away his own lightsaber, commits to the light side of the force and accepts his own fate, even if it means he dies.

 

He is a Jedi. Like his father before him. But better.

 

It's not that I do not understand. Repeating what happended but in MORE DETAIL..still doesn't wash away the fact in that moment. In the very moment he ATTACKED his Father, using pure emotions only through WINNING the fight did he stop and see what he had become yes.

 

Let's say he did not win the fight. Would he allowed the dark side to seduced him into a full dark Jedi? I think it's not fair to say I'm not listening to what the others are telling me. But IGNORING at the same time that he did use his emotions only to say in the same breath. "He learned from it"

 

If he was such a great Jedi like his Master, then he wouldn't have been seduced by the Dark Side at all. Only THROUGH the Dark Side did he defeat his Father. That's the point I am trying to make. He did NOT use his Jedi tricks. At the point he attacked his Father. He was hyped on full rage.

 

Despite learning from it later.

 

In that moment, he only won true victory using his emotions. My argument is could he have done this as a Jedi? It's not fair to say "Oh he learned from it" he should never have been seduced by the dark side at all. He was trained by Yoda to not let that penetrate his mind.

 

Let's wash away the whole he learned from it. Fact is he used his emotions to fight his Father. He allowed his Father to provoke him and the Emperor. If he wouldn't have won that fight he would "Never have learned not to follow that path"..does that make sense.

 

You cannot exactly have him squeaky clean image. Just like the Jedi in "Revenge of the Sith" was about to kill the Emperor. Jedi are not supposed to use anger. My argument still stands despite what he learned later as a Jedi he NEVER should have allowed the dark side overcome him, but not only did he let it. He used it's power.

Edited by DragonAgeOrgins
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My argument still stands despite what he learned later as a Jedi he NEVER should have allowed the dark side overcome him, but not only did he let it. He used it's power.

 

The funny thing about this is that most if not all of the Jedi have given into the darkside/made darksided decisions at some point. Qui-Gon did it, Satele Shan did it, Bastila Shan did it, Revan did it, Ulic Qel-Droma did it, Jaina Solo did it, Ben Skywalker did it, Mara Jade did it, Obi-Wan did it, Mace Windu did it, Kit Fisto did it, Saesee Tiin did it, and many more have... I wouldn't be suprised if Yoda has.

Edited by Tuscad
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Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

 

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

 

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?

 

The dark side is always there. There are times it becomes more noticeable. You will never get away completely from the darkside. That is something you have to deal with on a daily basis. Using your emotions does not mean you have given in to the darkside. A jedi throughout his or her life will have to deal with emotions on a daily basis. If they dont, then they are not human and just a walking robot. Learning to deal with your emotions and rising above them is what makes the difference.

 

Yes Luke used his emotions but when it came down to choose he rose above his emotions and did what was right.

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It's not that I do not understand. Repeating what happended but in MORE DETAIL..still doesn't wash away the fact in that moment. In the very moment he ATTACKED his Father, using pure emotions only through WINNING the fight did he stop and see what he had become yes.

 

Let's say he did not win the fight. Would he allowed the dark side to seduced him into a full dark Jedi? I think it's not fair to say I'm not listening to what the others are telling me. But IGNORING at the same time that he did use his emotions only to say in the same breath. "He learned from it"

 

If he was such a great Jedi like his Master, then he wouldn't have been seduced by the Dark Side at all. Only THROUGH the Dark Side did he defeat his Father. That's the point I am trying to make. He did NOT use his Jedi tricks. At the point he attacked his Father. He was hyped on full rage.

 

Despite learning from it later.

 

In that moment, he only won true victory using his emotions. My argument is could he have done this as a Jedi? It's not fair to say "Oh he learned from it" he should never have been seduced by the dark side at all. He was trained by Yoda to not let that penetrate his mind.

 

Let's wash away the whole he learned from it. Fact is he used his emotions to fight his Father. He allowed his Father to provoke him and the Emperor. If he wouldn't have won that fight he would "Never have learned not to follow that path"..does that make sense.

 

You cannot exactly have him squeaky clean image. Just like the Jedi in "Revenge of the Sith" was about to kill the Emperor. Jedi are not supposed to use anger. My argument still stands despite what he learned later as a Jedi he NEVER should have allowed the dark side overcome him, but not only did he let it. He used it's power.

 

But that isn't what you were originally asking. My response addressed the points in your original post:

1. Yes, he faltered initially and drew on the dark side to try and attack the Emperor. But he backed away from it.

2. Yes, he attacked Vader in a rage and yes, he defeated him using the power of his emotions.

3. He stopped himself. He renounced that darkness and walked away from it. He failed to succumb in the end. And that is why the Emperor wasn't jumping with glee in the end. His laughter stopped because he SAW that Luke couldn't be turned. That the falter, even though it won the fight, was not going to dominate Luke's destiny.

 

Luke walked into the fire, he got burned, but he came out whole.

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But that isn't what you were originally asking. My response addressed the points in your original post:

1. Yes, he faltered initially and drew on the dark side to try and attack the Emperor. But he backed away from it.

2. Yes, he attacked Vader in a rage and yes, he defeated him using the power of his emotions.

3. He stopped himself. He renounced that darkness and walked away from it. He failed to succumb in the end. And that is why the Emperor wasn't jumping with glee in the end. His laughter stopped because he SAW that Luke couldn't be turned. That the falter, even though it won the fight, was not going to dominate Luke's destiny.

 

Luke walked into the fire, he got burned, but he came out whole.

 

Only AFTER he won did he stop. If Vadar had defended that blow and nearly beat him. He wouldn't had the chance to do the right thing. He used the Dark Side of the force but as long as he does what is "right" in the end is all that matters.

 

Your first two sentences prove my point. He used raged/emotion those are Sith traits, whom is to say that if he would have been defeated he wouldn't have done what is right. Darth Vadar fought his master in a fury of rage. Yet he had been defeated which caused him to rage even more. As Darth Vadar was on the ground. He was screaming at his master "I Hate you"

 

In this situation. Luke Skywalker had defeated Vadar. My point is only that he used Sith Emotion/ Dark Side of the force. Only through the Dark Side was he able to defeat Vadar. You do not see Yoda or other Jedi using the Dark Side of the force. Why is it Okay for Luke Skywalker to use it, as long as he does what is right.

 

My overall point is proven that he used the dark side of the force to get victory, only through victory did he stop himself and go back to the light. Only when the rage had died down and he had obtained his goal. That is the point I am trying to make that he only was allowed victory by using his emotions/ dark side.

 

He wasn't able to defeat the Emperor using the light side or he would have never sliced Vadar in half had he not used his emotions only through that was he able to obtain victory. Using the Dark Side "at all" can have serious side effects. Why is okay for him to use the Dark Side, only when it suits him in direct conterdiction of his Jedi Teachings?

 

A: Would he have been able to defeat Vadar without using the Dark Side?

 

B: Did he indeed use the Dark Side to defeat Vadar. (Yes this was confirmed)

 

C: Why is it okay for a Jedi to use the Dark Side of the Force to obtain his goal as long as he uses the light side at the end.

 

I am hearing the feedback. I am not ignoring it. I would have expected more from someone who was trained directly by Yoda not to have been provoked. Using the Dark Side at all, usually leads to full dark side. That is my point. It's not the light that defeated Vadar. It was the dark side of the force.

Edited by DragonAgeOrgins
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I am hearing the feedback. I am not ignoring it. I would have expected more from someone who was trained directly by Yoda not to have been provoked. Using the Dark Side at all, usually leads to full dark side. That is my point. It's not the light that defeated Vadar. It was the dark side of the force.

Luke could have killed Vader, his father, but chose not to, aligning himself with the Light Side of the Force. When Vader killed Sidious, it was done out of love for his son, the same son who he witnessed only moments ago, giving himself to the Light Side of the Force, like Anakin once had.

 

I think the physical fighting is irrelevant for the most part in the final battle, it's all the subtle, deep meaning behind the strikes and actually the mental fight happening between the three of them that is the true battle.

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You're overthinking it. It wasn't some grand-darkside turning point for luke. And again, you're also dramatizing the possible damage done by a slip-up moment in regards to force kharma (as in lightside-darkside balance).

 

A single dark-willed act alone never sufficed to make a Jedi a Sith, or darksider. Take any of the Expanded Universe material for example, plenty of Jedi there that slipped up and yet managed to stay ontop. Also, Yoda didn't train Luke properly. a Jedi's training spans over decades, and most padawans aren't appointed knights up until their late tweens. Yoda had to compress those decades of training into a few puny months. It's also why he clearly stated that Luke was no Jedi yet and would not be until passing his final trial (Which you can actually read up on Wikipedia, Jedi trials, featuring several important key points that a Jedi had to go through in order to be recognized as one.)

 

Either way, why is this so important to you? Perfect characters are boring and it was this exact thrill of near-tainting in Luke that made the moment memorable. Let's not forget, he didn't commit a darkside act in itself. He was 'fighting' a darksider, he won, and stopped before killing him. all in all that's positive, not negative on kharmic scale.

 

Also, If you think that something like this makes him darksided, tainted or whatnot. Go read up on Mace Windu and his Lightsaber style Vapaad. He was constantly flirting with the darkside and still managed to remain a peon of light and head of the Jedi council for decades to come, until the fall of the republic.

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A: Would he have been able to defeat Vadar without using the Dark Side?

 

B: Did he indeed use the Dark Side to defeat Vadar. (Yes this was confirmed)

 

C: Why is it okay for a Jedi to use the Dark Side of the Force to obtain his goal as long as he uses the light side at the end.

 

A: No, he wouldn't have been able to defeat Vader without the Dark Side. Or even if he would, he didn't intend to fight him. He would have let himself get killed.

 

B: Yes, it was confirmed.

 

C: No, it is not okay for a Jedi to use the Dark Side of the Force to obtain his goal. But Luke didn't obtain his goal. After he had beaten Vader, his situation was not different from before. The Emperor tried to lure him to the Dark Side.

His goal was to resist the dark side and to redeem his father. Non of these was accomplished by defeating Vader.

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