Yep the video works, it's all good. Brontes is a worthy alternative.

 

Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate the difference for us. The wiping on such a known fight must have been quite irritating.

 

As we can see, for the sales run (where the team expects to carry the dead weight of a buyer) the idea is to be reliable so they choose to bring a dps section of commando, slinger, vanguard. You don't want to meme in front of a buyer. Nightmare crystals compensate for the buyers slot.

 

It didn't work out but the arrangement was fine.

 

Then for the demonstration we have two hours of pulling over on impside with mirror tanks and healers but this time the dps are 3 lightning and 1 madness sorc. No crystals but 4 experienced dps instead of a buyer slot.

 

This is a group that knows the fight well enough to do timed runs and sell it but you can see the struggle is real with this composition.

 

Finally the RNG aligns and a kill happens with only 3 of the team dead, the 4th death doesn't count because the boss died first.

 

Mathematically impossible is a phrase not used since 2013 and this is why. That's 2 hours and half a dead team who've killed that fight for years but also a dead Brontes.

 

Thankfully no one said anything about full sorc being impossible in any fight around here. This video may reassure players that bringing enough skill to a fight makes any dps composition possible.

 

No, what we can see in action here is the point I was illustrating through this thread although perhaps some missed the point entirely. The differences between the best dps choices and the worst ones are substantial and you have to work hard to compensate for the sandbagging. This is on the game designers for enforcing such differences not the players who want to play classes they like. You can bring preferred classes and have an easy life, faceroll dps checks, laugh at mechanics. Other options include classes that suffer and sandbag more by design. Even with a quality team the penalties between classes are frustrating.

 

Many thanks again to the squad of <Failure> and <It's Lit> for their demonstration of what dps they like to bring to brontes and then showing us how it goes with full sorc dps in this challenging fight.

You are truly outstanding. You claim that sorc is only viable if its dps is made up for by other classes. We then do a 4 sorc dps comp on brontes (remember no armor debuff) so there is no other dps class to carry the sorcs. Yet this is still not good enough? 4 sorcs was the extreme to show that they dont need another class to carry them. It's clear that you refuse to admit that you were wrong. Obviously no amount of evidence will be enough for you. For anyone else who is reasonable, it's plain to see that a sorc can meet required dps checks, even without the armor debuff that every group makes sure that they have.

You are truly outstanding. You claim that sorc is only viable if its dps is made up for by other classes. We then do a 4 sorc dps comp on brontes (remember no armor debuff) so there is no other dps class to carry the sorcs. Yet this is still not good enough? 4 sorcs was the extreme to show that they dont need another class to carry them. It's clear that you refuse to admit that you were wrong. Obviously no amount of evidence will be enough for you. For anyone else who is reasonable, it's plain to see that a sorc can meet required dps checks, even without the armor debuff that every group makes sure that they have.

You are terribly bitter and determined to believe it's about sorcs when I made it crystal clear by slowly spelling it out, that a range of options fit the same scenario and "lightning sorc" is merely a filler to suit the subforum.

But then you did ignore what I said from the start.

There's no fight to be had. Just be honest about it. It's all about DPS in the tightest fights and the developers do not allow all classes to be equally competitive.

And insisted on a fight about... the imaginary argument. Now here we are with you making the effort to carry on a raid into a full sorc comp to prove... ???

Well it certainly gave me evidence that you neither care for full sorc dps when it matters and that it didn't go smoothly. Do you recall me talking of dps differences and not approving of them earlier? Apparently not.

All that effort to make it about sorcs despite being told it wasn't about sorc dps.

Not sure what to do other than laugh in your face.

It took you to page 3 to eventually answer a clear question from page 1 and it seemed settled.

Now you post a tryhard evening to reddit then here as if it wasn't settled and I give you a suitable reply.

You are terribly bitter and determined to believe it's about sorcs when I made it crystal clear by slowly spelling it out, that a range of options fit the same scenario and "lightning sorc" is merely a filler to suit the subforum.

 

But then you did ignore what I said from the start.

 

 

 

And insisted on a fight about... the imaginary argument. Now here we are with you making the effort to carry on a raid into a full sorc comp to prove... ???

 

Well it certainly gave me evidence that you neither care for full sorc dps when it matters and that it didn't go smoothly. Do you recall me talking of dps differences and not approving of them earlier? Apparently not.

 

All that effort to make it about sorcs despite being told it wasn't about sorc dps.

 

Not sure what to do other than laugh in your face.

 

It took you to page 3 to eventually answer a clear question from page 1 and it seemed settled.

 

Now you post a tryhard evening to reddit then here as if it wasn't settled and I give you a suitable reply.

Believe what you want. You have stated very clearly so many times that bottom end dps can only clear content if they are carried by other classes, and that they couldn't provide the necessary dps to meet the tough dps checks. We provided evidence in direct contradicton to your statements. If you want to continue to believe and claim that we have proved nothing then I suppose nobody can stop you, but you look like a fool doing so.

Here are some examples of those claims just in case you try to refute that too.

First it was this:

Then it was this:

Then this:

And finally, this:

Seems to me you were very clear in what you thought about bottom end dps. It just turns out your opinion isn't correct, at least for Sorc. But hey, you can keep arguing the point for arsenal merc and mm sniper if you want I guess.

@gyron

just admit when you are wrong... everthing else just makes you look stupid

Seems to me you were very clear in what you thought about bottom end dps. It just turns out your opinion isn't correct, at least for Sorc.

This is rich.

I posed a statement and asked you a a question based on your statement way back on page 1 and between then and here is a ton of completely unnecessary drama.

If you had the understanding to put your reply from page 3 just after my original comment there would be the opportunity for a conversation but by the time you finally answered I decided it was already too toxic to continue.

I summed up the last effort to spell it out for you on the previous page.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

 

I state that Sorc dps is viable for all HM/NiM content because multiple people have proven it to be by clearing the content as a sorc dps. You then reply talking about doing NiM as 4 sorcs. Explain to me how that is not a strawman argument. Your point is based on 4 lightning sorcs (or aresenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) doing NiM content when i simply said that any sorc dps spec is viable, ie capable of doing the content.

 

Very well then, I will spell out the legitimate question I put to you:

 

Your claims were:

 

1) Both sorc dps are valid for every fight in every mode.

 

2) Your proof is because sorcs have gone through the content

 

This is what my words were:

 

It's possible to go through most content in game as a weak dps spec... as long as important slack is made up by the other dps.

 

I state that position as mine based on personal experience and then asked if you agreed or disagreed with it:

 

I put the question of 4 of the lowest damage spec as the only dps into a dps check and asked if you think that is realistic.

 

So if I suggest the scenario of four lightning sorcs as the dps for 8m NiM TFB, you reckon that's viable?

 

An alternative to the word "viable" is "enjoyable".

 

The reason for lightning sorcs (or arsenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) is because all three have low damage output. The lowest.

 

Do you think they can realistically pass the hardest dps checks if better dps specs are not in the group (as the example shows).

 

There's no fake argument and I haven't pretended you said anything different. I'm asking you to your face if your definition of valid means they do enough damage individually to pass the hardest dps checks. If not then It's as I said, they require better dps specs to be with them to pass that content.

 

If you are happy to call valid as simply being in a group that kills the boss then so be it.

 

Like I said I've cleared it all in the worst dps spec and I've already shared my view on that.

We could have had a reasonable discussion, I wished to invite talk on the line of dps disparity, which of course involves but is not specially about sorc specs. Much toxic talk later that's not going to happen. End of discussion surely... and yet...

I now know you were so triggered that afterwards you went to the effort of diverting a raid. Almost funny. Except you didn't have anything resembling a conversation with me in the first place so you latched onto only what you wanted to.

What makes you think your efforts to communicate suddenly deserve my sincere attention after being obtuse when I requested yours.

Yep the video works, it's all good. Brontes is a worthy alternative.

 

 

No, what we can see in action here is the point I was illustrating through this thread although perhaps some missed the point entirely. The differences between the best dps choices and the worst ones are substantial and you have to work hard to compensate for the sandbagging. This is on the game designers for enforcing such differences not the players who want to play classes they like. You can bring preferred classes and have an easy life, faceroll dps checks, laugh at mechanics. Other options include classes that suffer and sandbag more by design. Even with a quality team the penalties between classes are frustrating.

The DPS difference between the three ranged specs is not some ridiculous shortcoming for sorcs as its a minuscule difference between all the ranged classes. Obviously theres a much larger gap in the ranged vs melee discussion but that wasn't your original argument. (Which im not saying I disagree with, but to say that was your original argument is false)

To say any class isn't viable is disingenuous to the rest of the community, if someone wants to play a sorc dps and can pull competent numbers then all power to them. There isnt enough of a difference in dps/raid utility/defensive cd's to suggest otherwise.

The DPS difference between the three ranged specs is not some ridiculous shortcoming for sorcs as its a minuscule difference between all the ranged classes. Obviously theres a much larger gap in the ranged vs melee discussion but that wasn't your original argument. (Which im not saying I disagree with, but to say that was your original argument is false)

 

To say any class isn't viable is disingenuous to the rest of the community, if someone wants to play a sorc dps and can pull competent numbers then all power to them. There isnt enough of a difference in dps/raid utility/defensive cd's to suggest otherwise.

You say that but the very next post did in fact bring in the melee, there was a technical fault but yes, the idea certainly was to head that direction. The disparity in dps which obviously involves the gap between the worst and the best.

Regarding that, for ~5th time I've said it in here, it was never about sorcs. That was a starting scenario as explained multiple times.

And I did not say any class was not viable. I put myself forward as an example of doing the content with quite possibly the worst output spec. I questioned a sweeping statement about viability and gave a worst case scenario because as you also seem aware, there is significant difference.

Enough difference that class and spec can lower and raise the bar of success for people and groups. I didn't know this random guy but I asked him a question to see what he thinks. He took it very badly.

A similar difference is behind why there were double shadow tanks demonstrated through Brontes. Very powerful tanks shadows. But that wasn't up for discussion.

I watched a full sorc group kill brontes and I would still recommend it to no one. This should not need much explaining but I do not agree with the reasons that make it unattractive. Not least the disproportionate group talent required.

Maybe we get to have the discussion that never was. Probably not. The issue is that there never was one due to excessive hostility so you get to have twisted impressions.

Also you're quoting from a reply written to upset your associate. It had the right effect and has truth in it but it wasn't really for anyone else.

You say that but the very next post did in fact bring in the melee, there was a technical fault but yes, the idea certainly was to head that direction. The disparity in dps which obviously involves the gap between the worst and the best.

 

Regarding that, for ~5th time I've said it in here, it was never about sorcs. That was a starting scenario as explained multiple times.

 

And I did not say any class was not viable. I put myself forward as an example of doing the content with quite possibly the worst output spec. I questioned a sweeping statement about viability and gave a worst case scenario because as you also seem aware, there is significant difference.

 

Enough difference that class and spec can lower and raise the bar of success for people and groups. I didn't know this random guy but I asked him a question to see what he thinks. He took it very badly.

 

A similar difference is behind why there were double shadow tanks demonstrated through Brontes. Very powerful tanks shadows. But that wasn't up for discussion.

 

I watched a full sorc group kill brontes and I would still recommend it to no one. This should not need much explaining but I do not agree with the reasons that make it unattractive. Not least the disproportionate group talent required.

 

Maybe we get to have the discussion that never was. Probably not. The issue is that there never was one due to excessive hostility so you get to have twisted impressions.

 

Also you're quoting from a reply written to upset your associate. It had the right effect and has truth in it but it wasn't really for anyone else.

Reasons this thread went the way it did:

1) This thread was from the beginning about the viability of Sorc dps in HM/NiM. That was it. It wasn't about anything else. This is why I ultimately didn't understand why you were bringing other classes into the discussion because the focus of the discussion was on sorc. I think this is obvious based on the other commenters in the thread as well. I even agree with you that there is too great a disparity between dps, but that is a philosophical and not a functional argument so long as the lowest parsing dps class can still contribute enough dps such that if all 4 dps did that same damage the boss would still die. Until that changes the question of dps spread unfortunately does not really rise to that level of importance.

2) The flippant, almost trolling manner, you posed your "question" about sorc viability doesnt look or sound at all like you are trying to have a serious conversation. It just looks like you are trying to pick an argument. Instead of rationally asking a question with some context, you made a few quips and then pulled a question seemingly out of left field with no context whatsoever. Forgive me for not divining your true purpose.

3) You make repeated statements saying that the weakest dps specs (lightning, marksman, and arsenal) can only clear NiM content if their lack of required dps is made up for by other classes. Also stating that it is about bringing the total amount of dps when it matters, and that is why you would never bring 4 sorcs (or whatever combination since you keep insisting on making this about other classes that weren't the focus of this thread).

4) In light of the previous statements, the video proving that 4 sorc dps are capable of killing brontes. Nowhere do I say or suggest that this is a good comp, an optimal comp, or even an enjoyable comp. I simply state and we showed that it was possible. Therefore, if 4 sorcs can kill that boss, that means each sorc on average is bringing the required dps to kill the boss. Extrapolating this yields the conclusion that a sorc dps (again or whatever) can meet the required dps checks without having to have their dps made up for by another dps in the group.

5) The final straw for me, and it makes even less sense given that your overall argument is apparently about the state of the dps spread and how wide and unbalanced it is, was your abject refusal to admit that you were wrong on sorc being a viable dps class that doesn't need to be carried. Just as I apparently missed your point, you completely missed mine. This was and always has been an attempt to refute the misinformation that sorcs need to be carried to clear NiM. That they can't pull their own weight. I started off refuting that, I continued to make that my key point, and the whole reason for that 4 sorc Brontes kill was to prove that.

Everyones being too subtle for their own good then.

I didn't bother continuing to post due to sheer lack of anything beneficial coming out of it.

So when you double post to link a fresh video and demand my attention with notes that it's to prove me wrong. Well that came across as quite the troll restart of a toxic exchange when we had no understanding the first time round.

Maybe we can wrap this up by being blunt.

My angle was and is to bring up unreasonable differences between dps options to the point where the supposed benefits of penalised classes do not add up to equalling the performance of damage enhanced classes. I put this mostly down to developers grossly exaggerating melee downtime. A difference for burst vs sustained I have less issue with.

This is relevant as the thread begins with woes about sorc dps having low value for hardest PVE content. Such complaints have some merit and a DPS disadvantage is one of these by design.

Dps disparity becomes somewhat theoretical if the minimum is sufficient but the margin for error is a practical problem.

Viability has a few factors. Class potential, player competence and group composition matter. Add a dose of RNG and you get a rough idea.

So a flat claim of X being viable skips a few things but it is obvious to me that the thread starter has a very casual air despite mentioning HM and NiM.

This is how we start with me presenting scenarios that I find suitable and questioning how realistic your claim is when I can see ways for it to be unrealistic for the audience.

We know how well that went down and I left the topic for dead.

That would be the context for me giving you a creative reply when you pull up the thread again to say you pulled a tryhard evening to prove me wrong and that 4 sorcs can totally do it.

My first and sustained thought was that you were taking the piss in an enthusiastic manner, how hardcore did you think this sounded:

Bioware how many years should past till u finally change sorc utilities or something so that we, sorc dpsers, could be useful in NiM/Master Mode ops?!!!

I now have a better idea of what you were thinking.

As there was no agreement on what we disagreed on, or apparently what we were talking about at any point right up to this last page I refute your last point. You proved it for yourself even if you thought it was for me.

Gyronamics, your positions were totally clear in your posts, and they have been thoroughly proven wrong. As most do when they are proven wrong, you've been trying to shift the goal posts to show that you were trying to argue for something different, which you plainly weren't. We can all read all of your posts. I'm not sure who you're trying to fool. I have absolutely no dog in this fight one way or another, but after reading this thread, you appear totally incapable of reasoned discussion.

DarthCognusSion has shown remarkable patience and understanding even trying to discuss anything with you, so I applaud him for that.

Marksman is plenty viable for every dps check as long as whoever is playing it is good enough.

The only dps check I know is that of our guild's FP run, with me, the ranged gunslinger, always trainling behind (even with the "running" speed !), and arriving mostly when our melee DPS have already cleared everything before I can fire up something reasonable.

It's totally frustrating for me, but that's another story.

Too bad for me, however, that I just can't get into proper melee fighting. The "dance on the keyboard" feels so much complicated to me that I'd need ages to get into that. Plus, I never have the feeling of "now I did that right" when using abilities of my melee Jedi. Maybe the animations are more fluid on the Dark Side ?

BraverDre : the guy that creates a #nerf operatives thread every other month.

Here's a nice reddit post of 4 sorcs killing brontes in NiM.

Can you please stop complaining about issues that don't exist? Both Sorc/Sage dps specs are viable in every NiM/MM fight and GFTM HM/VM. All of these fights have been clear by multiple people. Stop spreading false information. Either learn to play the specs correctly or go play another class but the issue is with you, not with the class.

Bla bla bla it exists and devs are gonna buff sorcs in 6.0

I can't wait for Tk/Lightning to get buffed, because then it's only a matter of time before Arsenal gets buffed too. It'll be glorious to not be the lowest paraing spec in the game again.

Nope not till we see you play IO with full documentation for science.

Time Sith Socerer Madness is fitted so it on equal footing with all the other classes instead of having it damage and defence nerf all the time,

every since game 5.2 Sith Socerer Madness damage is no longer use full in Ops and PVP they are totally out rank by every other class and this is totally wrong.

everytime a upgrade happen now the first class to get nerf more than any other class is Sith Madness Damage and it get the crappies gear design too.

Nope not till we see you play IO with full documentation for science.

Never gonna happen. Things I have done so that I wouldn't have to learn IO on my already 248 geared merc:

1. Gear up an operative to full 248 dps gear and learn both Lethality and Concealment

2. Gear up a jug to 248 dps for Vengenace (already knew it cause Kephess reflect memes in 4.0)

3. Level up a mara and have geared it to around 244 ilvl and learned Anni.

Things I would do (but have not had to do yet):

1. Learn to play both sorc specs and gear one up

2. Gear up a sniper

3. Jump off a cliff

4. Become a tank/healer full time.

What he means to say is...."I am a terrible sorc/sage dps, please help me cry to the devs for help":D:D:D

"That's it man, game over man, game over"

Never gonna happen. Things I have done so that I wouldn't have to learn IO on my already 248 geared merc:

1. Gear up an operative to full 248 dps gear and learn both Lethality and Concealment

2. Gear up a jug to 248 dps for Vengenace (already knew it cause Kephess reflect memes in 4.0)

3. Level up a mara and have geared it to around 244 ilvl and learned Anni.

 

Things I would do (but have not had to do yet):

1. Learn to play both sorc specs and gear one up

2. Gear up a sniper

3. Jump off a cliff

4. Become a tank/healer full time.

I'll take that as a maybe then.

no other spec in the game double dots as well as madness except maybe leth/viru

death field is a versatile dot spread, if a little too small in radius - it can be paired with the final charge of recklessness for disastrous results

its rotation is simple and forgiving now that it's force positive

My take on the Dps sorc/sage specs tying in a few of the most recent comments.

Lighting in my personal opinion doesn't need a buff, there just happen to only be maybe .1% of the entire population of lightning sorcs who have fully mastered the spec from what I see when hopping around the servers. Even though it's not an entire representation in live content, Parsely shows Lightning is both over Arsenal and marksman in a straight burn.

Madness on the other hand I would vouch for a buff, compared to other ranged dot specs from viru, IO, and apparently Engi as per the devs (lol). Madness is quite a bit behind. I personally don't see madness even now competing well.

no other spec in the game double dots as well as madness except maybe leth/viru

death field is a versatile dot spread, if a little too small in radius - it can be paired with the final charge of recklessness for disastrous results

its rotation is simple and forgiving now that it's force positive

Personally find Madness very limited, and even leth operative very limited in double dots. Viru is easy in double dotting as they even have a rotation built on that. Would probably list better double dotting specs as anni and especially Hatred sin.

All in all lightning/TK sorc is fine where it's at, because everyone expects it to be an amazing burst spec, but that's not what it's geared to. It's a burst spec with a huge AoE component, which is how lightning sorcs can compare to others. Madness is definitely sadness on where it's at, and would hope a buff come to them at some point maybe 6.0 if they are lucky.

Sith Madness Damage is really in need of boost it is become loving stock every since they started nerfing the madness damage in 4.0 to cater for shooter characters,

also the sith gear is crap plain and simple it looks dam ugly particularly the head gear,

also the drop gear at level 70 is never for the sith sorcerer it always dropping gear for other class and it dam bound making it totally useless to do anything with wasting end users gaming time.

 

also the drop gear at level 70 is never for the sith sorcerer it always dropping gear for other class and it dam bound making it totally useless to do anything with wasting end users gaming time.

Whatever this means? Command crates drop gear only for your class. Tokens from ops are supposed to be traded at your class vendor. What you buy for unassembled components you can choose yourself. So, what's the problem?

The sad truth is Sorc had their time in the Universe,like Palpatine it went down into the abyss. At the bottom of the Class heap.

PPL only play Sorc now only because they like the class not because of how good they are compared to the other classes.