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Damask_Rose's Avatar


Damask_Rose
06.23.2017 , 11:24 AM | #351
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
See I want to reject the idea of even going to recruit a terrorist. Which is why I don't want them to be reintroduced via chapters at all. Alerts are skippable, chapters not so much so.
I would have no issue with that if the alerts were fully voiced and animated. I would be very unhappy if romance companions were returned 'KotOR" style. I don't feel like my character is participating in those alerts, just a cardboard cutout. But then again, they aren't much worse than Iokath.
Still waiting for Quinn's "meaningful" reunion!

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
06.23.2017 , 11:29 AM | #352
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process
Hi Charles,

I indeed remember the positive feedback on the story especially for the last X-pack. Although to be totally honest the story wasn't that great.

On scale of 1 (poor) 10 (best) I personally scale both Xpack at 6-7 and for reference Timothy Zahn work at 11.

Games like Risen, The Witcher, have better laid out scenarios and dialog.
To be fair they don't have the constraint to do a one fits classes all story.

Pretty sure you are fully aware you shoot yourselves in the foot doing so.

I don't know if it's the marketing department, specific execs that guided but you guys could have done much better.

I personally think you misinterpreted the pacing issue.
The true problem was delivering the content by chapter, which disconnected the players from the plot between each one. Like reading a book over a couple of months.
Then Valkorion and his family, Revan, the betrayals, were getting old, we needed new characters and context.
Also one of the biggest issue was being obliged to grind through masses of the same mobs to progress through the story.

Finally players wanted their companions faster but not with rushed out story.

(edit) My guild and friend list numbers don't really fit the pattern you are seeing in your data.
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Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
06.23.2017 , 11:44 AM | #353
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
I would have no issue with that if the alerts were fully voiced and animated. I would be very unhappy if romance companions were returned 'KotOR" style. I don't feel like my character is participating in those alerts, just a cardboard cutout. But then again, they aren't much worse than Iokath.
Agreed, Iokath to me was the worst yet.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
06.23.2017 , 11:55 AM | #354
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
Tux, the main reason people left is there was no group content, which had nothing to do with the story. It had to do with no group content. It was all story, nothing for groups to do. That is why my friend left. She left as there was nothing for her to do with her boyfriend. she enjoyed the story but she didn't want to play by herself.
^^ I agree. AND... the incomplete state of GC when it was released in 5.0

Those upset about the drought of group content and GC would rail on the story because that was an easy target for them to rail on since it was a main focus of the expansion. People often are not completely honest about why they are upset and will simply lash out at the easiest thing to target. They want their pound of flesh, and they don't care who or what they have to attack to feel like they gain it.
"The internet has enabled so much and empowered so many. But it can also be a place where the basic rules of decency are suspended and pettiness and negativity thrive, - Tim Cook, Apple CEO

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
06.23.2017 , 11:56 AM | #355
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
I wonder how much of that is because it was so rushed though? If Charles actually had to cut 2/3 of his story, it seems like much more could have been done to bring the story better closure. I obviously can't speak for Charles, but I have to assume that he's not entirely pleased with the story as it is either. I actually feel sorry for him, as a writer, having your work judged based on a 1/3 completed story isn't exactly fair to him.
But the bottom line is this: Charles only had to cut 2/3rds of the Story because the story in KotFE really wasn't that good, and didn't feel like Star Wars and more players were unhappy with it than were happy with it. That's harsh, but that is how it is. Had the first half of KotFE been half as good as the Class Stories and felt like Star Wars Charles would have had all the time he needed.

The biggest problem with KotFE/ET was there was too many dialogue scenes where the Player felt like a passenger in someone else's story. The game went from "Welcome To Star Wars - Your Decisions Will Shape The Galaxy" to "Welcome To This Month's Episode Of Keeping Up With The Valkorians - Sit Down & Do As Little As Possible As The Story Unfolds Before You Regardless Of Your Actions".

The best closure that could have come to KotFE/ET was when we encountered that first probe with Darth Marr we should have turned that ship around 180 degrees and not looked back.

And having to cut some of the content does not excuse some of the glaring plot holes.
Why did we spend all that boring time in the Odessan Wilderness gathering parts for a Weapon that was NEVER USED?

Then when we finally got to the Arcann fight - for which we had been bored to tears in the Oddessan Wilderness making a weapon - did we suddenly forget all about that Weapon and use a Magic Shield instead?

Having to condense to story doesn't explain that plot hole.

Even allowing for the fact that parts of the story were chopped to condense it down to 2 seasons instead of three it is apparent the story was not particularly coherent, or well paced. And those problems are, unfortunately, the hallmarks of a mediocre story writer. Which given Charles wrote the very worst, most one dimensional (by a mile) Class Story - Trooper - really should not have come as a shock.

Now, I don't know if Charles is also responsible for the direction the intra-story combat took - but that was a huge part of the problem as well. Combat is KotFE/ET is bad copy and paste after bad copy and paste after bad copy and paste.

Why give some of the classes Stealth when EVERYTHING sees through it?
Why give us CC abilities when everything of note is immune to it?
Why then give "bosses" spamable CC on top of spammable CC?

Who is responsible for - for example - the final boss fight on the Voss Star Fortress in Veteran Mode?
Who designed that combat?
It is everything that is wrong with KotFE/ET combat writ large - times ten.

Making combat an interminable grind of fighting through spammable CC after spammable CC is NOT exciting, or even good, combat. Neither is it a proxy for challenging combat.

There was so much wrong with KotFE/ET that is hard to now where to begin, and what little good there was, what little they got right is washed away under a deluge of rubbish, and missed opportunities.

All The Best
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JattaGin's Avatar


JattaGin
06.23.2017 , 11:57 AM | #356
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.
Ah, I wished you would have listened to the numbers in that case and not to the vocal minority.

I vividly remember all the doom and gloom here on the board about the expansions and that it didn't match my experience in-game.

I sincerely hope that shifting towards group content as the new way-to-go works out for you. But I am sceptical. I personally believe that the big majority of players couldn't care less for OPs, NiM, PvP and whatnot. That KotFE/KotET, your story-only-expansions were the most successful does actually say something about your player base.

I don't know how many players have played the new OPs boss (yet). None of the players I know in-game have. And none of them cares. Of course, that doesn't mean anything except what kind of friends I have in-game. I tried getting a group for it in April. I found one other person who was interested. We thought it might be a bit tough with just the two of us.

That said, it feels great to read so many yellow posts here. Charles' insights are very interesting (to me). Thanks!

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.23.2017 , 11:57 AM | #357
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process
If I may?

I want to be clear that I was NOT saying people were "right" or "wrong" for liking a story - to each their own.

My point was the ratio of "I liked it" to "I disliked it!"

Also, it needs to be said that I believe your metrics when you say KotFE and KotET were very successful - because minus the story, the quality of life improvements delivered in those expansions rank as the best the game has ever received, and everything other than the story was an out of the park home run.

So given that, it can explain those numbers - but likewise due to passionate feedback as you admitted, there were things wrong with the story.

You still have a hard time explaining rationally how Vitiate could be Valkorion, as they have different personalities, still didn't capture the Star Wars feel in KotFE, and while I understand why you tried the monthly episodic release, it didn't work based on your own words. You talk about story beats, yet none of those from the old story were incorporated into KotFE - just some cursory lip service at best. The story just feels like its in a rush to run away from the pre-KotFE game, which many, many people loved and wanted more.

So, going forward, I really have just 2 questions:

1) Is the story going to continue to double down on the KotFE story, or are we finally going to transition back to the Sith Empire vs the Republic and make that the focus of the game again?
2) Going forward in the story now, especially given the feedback given, will your story team make more of an effort to properly incorporate elements from each class's story, and with the context and reverence those story beats deserve, or does the story team consider KotFE, for lack of a better term, a "clean break" from the old game, and we should not expect any future stories to reflect what our character did or achieved in the past (including story with companions)?

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
06.23.2017 , 11:58 AM | #358
Quote: Originally Posted by Deewe View Post
(edit) My guild and friend list numbers don't really fit the pattern you are seeing in your data.
Fair point from your perspective, because it is real for you.

But the studio gathers much larger and broader numbers of data points in making assessments... so there is simply no reasonable grounds to make your anecdotal data more important then the wider data available to a studio (any studio).

Not commenting specific to your post... but this very much goes back to what Charles stated about story being a very personal and passionate part of content for players that actually like story (not all players do like story.. and they will rail on it just because it is story and not a new OP or WZ). And not all players like the way a story goes, some even want to have the ability to rewrite it to their personal narrative, which simply does not work for MMOs.
"The internet has enabled so much and empowered so many. But it can also be a place where the basic rules of decency are suspended and pettiness and negativity thrive, - Tim Cook, Apple CEO

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
06.23.2017 , 12:00 PM | #359
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
If I may?

I want to be clear that I was NOT saying people were "right" or "wrong" for liking a story - to each their own.

My point was the ratio of "I liked it" to "I disliked it!"

Can we please let this line of discussion go.


NONE of US has the data to draw any specific and accurate conclusions and comparisions on any ratio of like/dislike/indifferent. It is not productive, it is divisive, and is causing unneeded noise in the discussion.

As I stated earlier... some liked it, some did not, some did not care one way or the other, and every possible variation between those three observation points. It takes all kinds to make a village, and that is true in MMOs as it in real life.
"The internet has enabled so much and empowered so many. But it can also be a place where the basic rules of decency are suspended and pettiness and negativity thrive, - Tim Cook, Apple CEO

menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
06.23.2017 , 12:03 PM | #360
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
The biggest problem with KotFE/ET was there was too many dialogue scenes where the Player felt like a passenger in someone else's story. The game went from "Welcome To Star Wars - Your Decisions Will Shape The Galaxy" to "Welcome To This Month's Episode Of Keeping Up With The Valkorians - Sit Down & Do As Little As Possible As The Story Unfolds Before You Regardless Of Your Actions".

All The Best

This is a very important point and something I disliked about the story.