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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
06.23.2017 , 10:23 AM | #341
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Exactly. If the story needs players to come up with pretzel logic to explain its inconsistencies, then the story itself failed. And there is no way to spin that.
Not for me. I am a roleplayer and do not use all the story for my roleplay. I use bits and pieces for my roleplay so it would depend on the person. For us it worked perfectly since we wanted to only use bits and pieces of the story. So again it goes back to the person depending on what they are using the story for.

I.E.

My sorceress never sat on the sith council. (For one thing there was way tooooooooooooooo many doing that and for another I already had a story started for her before I even started playing TOR )
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Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
06.23.2017 , 10:30 AM | #342
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.
So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
It took me one search query and about ten minutes of copy/pasting to come up with 50 unique examples of players who like the story. There are a significant amount of people who liked it.
This is directed at both of you. You guys can try to blur the lines, but it seems obvious that you both completely ignore the fact that those people praising KOTFE (including me to an extent), later got wise. Not because we read the forums and were swayed by negative opinions, but because we played the story and we thought, "Oh, I bet this is going to have the most epic ending! "MY CHOICES DO MATTER!" But they didn't, did they? You tried to fool us in KOTET, but it became immediately obvious after playing for 20 mins where this XP was headed..

How many people have posted positively for KOTET? Don't worry, I'll wait. And if KOTET was somehow "numerically successful" that's because we thought you were going to fix what was wrong with KOTFE, and provide meaningful group content.

So kudos to the marketing and strategy teams. You had us on the hook, and were thus able to fluff the numbers in December well enough for KOTET to be seen as a "numerical success."
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Soon™
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I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
06.23.2017 , 10:32 AM | #343
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.
I assume that's due to all the design work that needs to be done, not the writing or approval of the actual story? I imagine all the programming for that type of a pace had to be prohibitive.

Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.
Really?? You're telling us that, numerically, which I assume means subscribers, KOTET was a hit? I believe it with KOTFE, there was an initial surge and many players 'hung on' for the monthly updates, but not KOTET...I saw 100% the opposite in-game with KOTET Charles. I saw guilds decimated, multiple day-1 players quit, entire raid teams leave...perhaps there was a flood of old blood for the 1st month vs the previous month(s), and statistically, that showed as an increase, but after release, there is no way you can convince me KOTET was a "success".
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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
06.23.2017 , 10:36 AM | #344
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
I assume that's due to all the design work that needs to be done, not the writing or approval of the actual story? I imagine all the programming for that type of a pace had to be prohibitive.

Really?? You're telling us that, numerically, which I assume means subscribers, KOTET was a hit? I believe it with KOTFE, there was an initial surge and many players 'hung on' for the monthly updates, but not KOTET...I saw 100% the opposite in-game with KOTET Charles. I saw guilds decimated, multiple day-1 players quit, entire raid teams leave...perhaps there was a flood of old blood for the 1st month vs the previous month(s), and statistically, that showed as am increase, but after release, there is no way you can convince me KOTET was a "success".
Tux, the main reason people left is there was no group content, which had nothing to do with the story. It had to do with no group content. It was all story, nothing for groups to do. That is why my friend left. She left as there was nothing for her to do with her boyfriend. she enjoyed the story but she didn't want to play by herself.
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
06.23.2017 , 10:50 AM | #345
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
Tux, the main reason people left is there was no group content, which had nothing to do with the story. It had to do with no group content. It was all story, nothing for groups to do. That is why my friend left. She left as there was nothing for her to do with her boyfriend. she enjoyed the story but she didn't want to play by herself.
Agreed!!! The choice to abandon group content is exactly what hurt this game so damn much, and it's why I don't believe for even a moment that what Charles said is accurate from the numerical standpoint of actual subs. I have to assume he was using percentages, not raw numbers.
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EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.23.2017 , 10:58 AM | #346
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process
That's good to hear, with this we at least have concrete examples of you guys listening to our feedback over your own metrics. Even though KotFE and KotET are considered to be your most successful expansions, you are making sure to introduce varied content based on our feedback, instead of continuing to focus on pure story/solo content. Thank you!

Is it possible we can get a clarification on what TUX said though? I personally have played through all major expansion releases since 2.0 (except for joining the KotET party pretty late), and I can assure you that the number of active players I have seen for any of the expansions was RotHC > KotFE > SoR > GSF > GSH > KotET. And in terms of longevity, GSF, KotFE and KotET were both at the bottom of the ranking (the former two I noticed a surge in activity at release followed by a massive drop in a month, for KotET I joined too late to judge a drop-off at any point).

Why do many players have experiences that vastly differ from Bioware's metrics for expansion success? Is this being measured it by subscriber numbers, active player count, number of expansion purchases or CC revenue? I doubt it's subscriber count because KotFE release hit a 3-year peak in subscribers, while the earnings call following KotET mentioned a significant drop in sub count. And I sure hope you're not measuring it by the number of expansion purchases upon release, because that'd kinda be "cheating" for KotFE/ET, since those are purchased by simply subscribing, and even players who don't play either of two would be forced to get them if they were subscribed during release. Some clarification on the metric would be nice, because the players' experiences don't match up with what's being told to us.

Finally, I had an additional question. Is there a metric for how many players replay KotFE/ET? Due to them being a one-size-fits-all story, a lot of players made very vocal complaints about how it has no replay value and they will never subject more than 2 characters to that expansion, and so on, and I am curious to see if this matches up with what Bioware sees in the actual gameplay metrics.

Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Agreed!!! The choice to abandon group content is exactly what hurt this game so damn much, and it's why I don't believe for even a moment that what Charles said is accurate from the numerical standpoint of actual subs. I have to assume he was using percentages, not raw numbers.
I have a stinking feeling they have a metric like "number of copies of expansion that got purchased in the first six months of release" or something like that, hence why KotFE/ET are the two most successful (because nearly every active player "purchased" them).

Hopefully Charles will clarify if that's the case.
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Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
06.23.2017 , 11:07 AM | #347
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
A better way of handling that in the story sense is give you an opportunity to reject the companion instead of just alerts. The story for a lot of us is better, if they give an indepth story for that companion but there needs to be a way to reject a companion instead of accepting them.

See I want to reject the idea of even going to recruit a terrorist. Which is why I don't want them to be reintroduced via chapters at all. Alerts are skippable, chapters not so much so.

JakRoanin's Avatar


JakRoanin
06.23.2017 , 11:14 AM | #348
The idea that they can just go back and rewrite the entire two past expansions is unrealistic. I do agree that it's important to add more connections to the original class storylines. I also agree that companion stories and interaction need to be enhanced dramatically! Not just in story, but in combat. For Example, a mission needing Aric as a Sniper, Senya, Arcann, other original companions etc.

The most important thing to remember is that nobody can reasonably expect everything to be exactly as they want.

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
06.23.2017 , 11:21 AM | #349
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.
Thank you for commenting on this again, Charles! In the context of your remark on the pacing changing, I am again considering what you've said about companion returns. Now that the main Zakuul story arc has been handled via you condensing it, do the remaining companion returns need to receive the same treatment? Do their returns have to be as condensed as they were on Iokath?

Some people suggest that a brief, one-size-fits-all story is the best way to handle remaining companion returns, since it is the most expedient. I and many others disagree. If expedience is highly valued by a player, the companion return terminal is right there. It seems to me that those who have been willing to wait - those who are still willing to wait - value something else more highly, and that's a return strong in story richness that focuses on the companion(s) involved. I really hope that's what we get from you, whether it's what you're already working on or maybe if you decide to change in that direction based on player feedback.
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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
06.23.2017 , 11:24 AM | #350
Quote: Originally Posted by Exly View Post
In regards to returning companions. All that you needed to do was return them when we got our ships back, and then provide optional side missions for us to do if we wanted to in order to get companions that were not part of our original crew. It really could have been that simple, but you chose to make I harder than it needed to be and left many of us feeling disappointed as a result.
Yeah.

How many Comps has Consular got back so far.

Yeah, that's right - LESS than everyone else, heck some classes (Trooper / Bounty Hunter) have FOUR back already, and all Consular gets is Qyzen-Fess.

Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
Kotet and Kotfe will have gotten an better reception if you brought back our favorite companions. I mean come on most of the force user ones are not back. The smuggler got the worse of all with an total of 2 companion back.

2 are you kidding me that ruins the fun for smugglers.
Nope, Consular has only got one back so far.

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