EDIT...going to start with a summary of ideas, as the thread and discussion has progressed...original post and my reasoning follows...

 

Option Grp A...Possible changes to Project to remove delay, increase coolness factor and get away from junk throwing:

 

1) The Inquisitor companion, Ashara Zavros, a fallen padawan, has a skill called Force Burst. It is the best mirror animation for Shock I have seen in the game. It is instant, has a quick hand gesture, and has no projectile...the target is hit with force energy...almost exactly like what shock does....it is described in the tooltip as "A powerful burst of force energy that deals kinetic damage...". Here is a photo that compares the two, Force Burst and Shock, side by side:

 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8731/forceburstvsshock.jpg

 

2) It turns out that the sith side is full of all the good jedi ani's...the Agent has a companion named Raina Temple...and she is force sensitive...and she ALSO has a power called Force Burst...with ANOTHER animation, different from Ashara's. And this animation is exactly what some people had envisioned when suggesting a Project replacement...basically its a beefed up "force blow up a container" animation...

 

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1658/forceburst.jpg

 

again, blue background on hoth, but you get the idea....

 

So, on the sith side, there are TWO companions with TWO separate animations for a skill called Force Burst. Either animation would make a great instant replacement for chunk a clunker...and be a better mirror for shock. They are instant, dont involve junk, and are environmentally independent...and they are force push variants.

 

3) Simply replace project with a consular saber throw (Paradoxfoxx's idea). This works for several GREAT reasons...a) The saberthrow animation in this game looks awesome with its motion blur effect, b) Consulars have no saberthrow, yet with a class that can "throw" things, what makes more sense for a jedi to start with than his/her lightsaber? c) this is WELL documented in canon and is truly a neutral power. d) The double hit effect could look awesome with a quick boomerang motion in the animation...most of this is already in the game.

 

4) Simply switch the Project and Disturbance animations. Project looks and feels like an activation time type of animation...it takes time to pull up debris, spin it in the air, then throw it. Disturbance can easily have its wind up shortened into one smooth casting motion and go as an instant ability. That way shadows will get at least one skill that looks like what Satele did in Hope, and chunk a clunker will still be around for sages. But it will help move the basis of the class towards force energy and away from junk. This is already in the game.

 

5) Take the animation for "Force blow up an explosive container", beef up the force energy projectile a bit, and use that to replace project. Most of this is already in the game. This was suggested by other players, and is related to the Raina Temple force burst animation above, IMO.

 

6) See my description below for taking Satele's first attack in Hope and using something like that as a replacement. See below.

 

7) See my description below to replace the junk in chunk a clunker with a force created zephyr, which we already "create" in the telekinetic wave and forcequake ani's, and hurl the zephyr at the target. Force Whirlwind is an established jedi skill and was in kotor...

 

Option Grp B...Changes to Throw...

 

1) Replace throw with a version of Satele's second attack on Malgus...She uses two hands to generate a ball of force, and from this comes a shockwave that is much more powerful than her first attack/jab, but also takes longer to generate. I would make this basically a series of PULSES from that ball of force over the channeling of the skill, with a focussed series of shockwave projectiles. More wave-like, continuous (like pebblestorm is continous) than Disturbance or Telekinetic Wave since it is channeled, and they are discrete attacks. but similar to them in appearance and theme.

 

Option Grp C...Other....

 

1) Combine current Project and Forcequake...Forcequake is a channeled ability. Right now the current animation is ok, but if you are pvping or in a grp with multiple sages, it is impossible to tell which sage is quaking which area...

 

So as part of my suggestion to get rid of the current project and throw animations and completely replace them, I am also suggesting that they combine the current project with the current forcequake...So instead of the small zephyrs on each side of the toon, which are the same as in telekinetic wave (they make sense for wave, but not so much for quake), just have the project animation (the double talent version) fire off, and send objects into the kill zone...hopefully environment correct objects....

 

2) Use the Legacy system as a vehicle for providing alternate skins for the starter skills that are used throughout the life of the class, like project and throw. Some Sith would also like this, the ones that complain about too much lightning. NOTICE, I am asking for NEW animations, as a legacy reward, not recycling exising ones and switching them around. This would also make re-leveling a little more enjoyable for some, as you would get to watch different moves, perhaps ones you like better, in the cinematic combat.

 

3) Allow ALIGNMENT to impact the skins of some of the abilities. This is a tough one, because it impacts LOE on animation creation, AND would have ot be well done to avoid pvp faction recognition...but just as alignment impacts the color of lightsaber that a toon can use, it makes sense, and would add REAL consequence, if your alignment affected the appearance of your abilities...

 

ORIGINAL Post

 

Long post, sorry. Combat animations in this game are very important and very important to me for the Consular and Sage class. The game is built around cinematic combat.

 

So I look at the consular/sage skills as, hopefully, having a similar theme (kinetic force effects) and building upon each other as your toon advances. Kinetic force effects work because they are cool looking, undeniably lightside, and are INDEPENDENT of the environment - they look good anywhere. No more rocks out of starship decks, or magical droid graveyards everywhere at your feet. No more magically appearing endless gravel for pebblestorms...

 

OK, Im going to talk about the following abilities:

 

Project - first ranged skill learned. Supposed to be instant, but ani causes delay in damage. Ani is my least favorite, I call it chunk a clunker. You pull up endless supplies of environment inappropriate objects from at your feet and throw them at enemies (Rocks out of starships decks). The objects pop up, right into your field of view, and spin, which I find very annoying/distracting. Also, in lore, throwing objects is a darkside, temper tantrum, skill. In the movies vader, dooku, and palpitane do it. In games, all the way back to df2:JK, throwing debris was a darkside skill.

 

Project ability remains important to the class because its instant, and talent can give 45% to fire a free second attack, with reduced damage. This should be the Consulars jab - a quick punch with a chance to stun, and a chance to "double up" on the jab, or hit twice, fast with it.

 

Throw - Channeled ability. Does more damage. Takes longer. Kind of like a back punch, to carry the boxing analogy. Used early on as a 1-2 with Project then Throw (front punch/back punch combo). Becomes a staple of the class, as talent can remove cooldown from the skill, so you can spam it endlessly. Also several other talents are associated with it. Current Ani is the pebblestorm. Second most despised animation. Not as annoying, but looks as polished and sophisticated as something out of DF2 Jedi Knight from 14 years ago.

 

Screen of pebblestorm as is:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/throwo.jpg/

 

Project and Throw are used countless times, more than any other skill animation for the class. They should be 5 star ani's, the best of the best. They arent.

 

Disturbance - Finally we get into kinetic force type animations with advanced class Sage selectoin at level 10. Has a 1.5 sec activation timer. Animation is one handed, produces a ball of force that is hurled at target. Very cool animation. Still shot doesnt do it justice.

 

Screen of Disturbance Ani as is:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/disturbance.jpg/

 

 

Telekinetic Wave - Unlocked in talent tree, aoe attack. Two handed animation with 3 sec activation timer. As you raise both arms, two force cyclones/tornadoes/zephyrs are generated under your arms and produce a large wave or projectile of kinetic energy. VERY cool looking. Still shot doesnt do it justice.

 

Screen of Telekinetic Wave as is:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/telekineticwave.jpg/

 

OK, now for my proposals. I think all of these consular/sage ani's should share the theme/animation style of kinetic force effects.

 

Project - FIRST option - it should be a quick telekinetic force jab, the TRUE mirror of the Inquisitor's shock. Model it after Satele's first attack on Malgus in the Hope trailer where she leads off with a one handed attack...

 

Screens of Satele's 1st attack...

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/satelejab.jpg/

 

The effect on the receiving end could be something like getting hit with a small amount of force energy. Picture the effect of the "turbulence" or disturbance as a toon uses Force Speed...just a quick impact of a smalll chunk of force energy...

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/forcespeed.jpg/

 

EDIT: Jackbooten rightly pointed out, on about page 19, lol, that there is already a skill/animation similar to what I was talking about in game as the "Force blow up an explosive container" skill/animation. TY. Some screenies.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/forceproject.jpg/ Great Toon animation...

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/408/forceproject1.jpg/ The projectile effect itself needs a little more uumph, but is instant, and superior to shock since you really can see where it is coming from...someone mentioned earlier that people were un happy that shock looked alot like the inquisitor stun-style cc. There is no way this we could confused with the consular stun...

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/forceproject2.jpg/ Again, the projectile effect isnt the best right now, it is fairly tame, but it is still cool and a great place to start from considering the toon animation is already there....

 

SECOND option - Using the same toon animation for project now, where the toon raises his left hand up as he pulls up the clunker, then pushes it to the target, INSTEAD have the toon generate a force cyclone, then push it to the target. When we learn Telekinetic wave, we generate TWO cyclones. Makes sense that early on, we could create one. Also, the pieces for this ani are already there...the toon movement, the general look of the cyclone, etc.

 

Screen of toon conjuring clunker - would be the same toon motion for generating cyclone:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/projectrockconjuring.jpg/

 

Screen of toon pushing clunker - again would be the same toon motion for pushing cyclone to target:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/573/projectobjecthurl.jpg/

 

Screen of the cyclones generated during activation of Telekinetic Wave...I would envision a slightly denser cyclone for the replacement for Project:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/telewaveactivation.jpg/

 

Both of these option are superior to the current chunk a clunker because: They look good/work in ANY environment. They are more in line with lightside force skills and mesh better with the other consular/sage skills learned later on. NO more rocks out of starship decks, or holocrons everywhere, or power cores buried in forests, or vast underground droid scrap heaps located EVERYWHERE at your feet.

 

EDIT: THIRD, quick and easy option...

 

Switch the Project and Disturbance animations. Project, with its delay, could be PERFECTLY engineered to work with the 1.5 sec activation time that current disturbance has. And the disturbance animation could easily have its wind up speeded up to be instant.

 

That way, chunk a clunker stays in the game, for its fans. It just would not be as ubiquitous or the foundation of the classes ranged skills. And it would work better, because it is NOT an instant ani, and should have an activation timer. It takes time to rip up stuff magically from te ground. Of course I would also like to see it become environemntally aware.

 

Also, for shadows, this means that they would AT LEAST get one skill animation that would look something like what they see Satele do, and that BOTH of their basic ranged skills, project and throw, would not be based of junk/debris throwing...

 

I think it is a reasonable compromise that could be done by BW with lower effort as well.

 

OK...now for THROW. Go with Satele's second attack on Malgus. She uses two hands to generate a ball of force, and from this comes a shockwave that is much more powerful than her first attack/jab, but also takes longer to generate. I would make this basically a series of PULSES from that ball of force over the channeling of the skill, with a focussed series of shockwave projectiles. More wave-like, continuous (like pebblestorm is continous) than Disturbance or Telelkinetic Wave since it is channeled, and they are discrete attacks. but similar to them in appearance and theme.

 

Screen of Satele's 2nd Attack:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/satelebackpunch.jpg/

 

For reference, a screen of force wave. Imagine, instead of a 360 degree effect, one that is directed to a target, with about the same width and "footprint" of the force lightning animation.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/forcewave.jpg/

 

A final note, Satele is a saberstaff wielding shadow...shadows have project and throw. Not disturbance or telekinetic wave. Project and throw need to be changed into kinetic force style animations that the later, more advanced Sage skills build on...all players will see that video. Those moves are heroic. They are a 1-2 punch. They should be in the game. They should be the FOUNDATION for the Consular and Sage...NOT chunk a clunker and pebblestorm.

 

Some people like the rocks. I can understand that, and opinions vary. But for all the reasons I have laid out above, they just dont work, especially not on the lightside. And especially not with the environmentally inappropriate way the animations "work".

 

EDIT:

 

Idea for keeping Project ani in the game by combining it with the current Forcequake ani...

 

Forcequake is a channeled ability. Right now the current animation is ok, but if you are pvping or in a grp with multiple sages, it is impossible to tell which sage is quaking which area...

 

So as part of my suggestion to get rid of the current project and throw animations and completely replace them, I am also suggesting that they combine the current project with the current forcequake...

 

Here is how it would work. Take the current forcequake ani:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/forcequake.jpg/

 

So instead of the small zephyrs on each side of the toon, which are the same as in telekinetic wave (they make sense for wave, but not so much for quake), just have the project animation (the double talent version) fire off, and send objects into the kill zone...hopefully environment correct objects, unlike the rocks out of the starship deck as pictured below:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/doubleclunker.jpg/

 

So during the channeling of the quake, you would have a couple of objects from either side of the toon be thrown into the kill zone of the quake effectively combining the two animations. This is similar to the lightning that is cast into the kill zone on the Sith side. This would preserve chunk a clunker for the people that like it, and beef up forcequake, so that you can actually tell which sage is quaking which area from the objects that are coming from the sage and being thrown into the kill zone...

 

tl;dr My goal is to have all animations on the Sage side as thematic and awesome as what is on the Sorcerer side. Thanks.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Dyvim

I think Dyvim brings up some very good points and suggestions. I agree that the animations for project and Telekinetic throw are both underwhelming and the animations for disturbance and telekinetic wave are awesome. These two underwhelming animations are even more obvious when compared to the Sith Inquisitor's animations which are spectacular in my opinion. However I do realize that these points should have probably been brought up in the beta phase and not a few days before release, but if there is any possibility that these could be altered in the future (obviously not before launch) it would be much appreciated.

I support this 100%. Great ideas!

I admit it was a good read with good suggestions, but I really honestly don't mind the pebble flinging. I figure, sure its not as cool as lightening, but being pelted by high speed pebbles would be like getting slammed with rubber bullets (which hurt like hell). I think they should simply fly at the enemy a little faster to actually LOOK painful. Other than that, I am pretty pleased, but thats just me =)

I think Dyvim brings up some very good points and suggestions. I agree that the animations for project and Telekinetic throw are both underwhelming and the animations for disturbance and telekinetic wave are awesome. These two underwhelming animations are even more obvious when compared to the Sith Inquisitor's animations which are spectacular in my opinion. However I do realize that these points should have probably been brought up in the beta phase and not a few days before release, but if there is any possibility that these could be altered in the future (obviously not before launch) it would be much appreciated.

 

Thx. These problemmed animations were brought up in beta, build after build, in numerous threads by many different players. I was hoping they would be changed for launch, but I am still hopeful they will get changed at some point...

 

Many ideas were brought up. Bottom line was that for many players these were absolutely the two least liked ani's, and yet they are the most used for the class. A very very bad combination.

100% agree. The horrible Project / Throw animations are the sole reason I'll be rolling a Sith Inquisitor instead of a sage, even though I'd much rather be republic.

I like these animations. Edited December 15, 2011 by AstralFire

Personally, I like the Throw animation myself, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. Its simplistic, and it looks nice, but its got nothing on lightning. Nothing that would change my faction for a class though.

 

As for project, that one needs a little work.

Just keep submitting feedback and they will get changed. They have changed shadowbolt in WoW how many times? And we only had to beg for green fire for 3+ years before they put it in the game =)

 

So keep at it and I am sure they will eventually patch or hotfix in some different animations.

 

 

And while it is def possible for them to hotfix these before launch I would rather they work on making the game stable first, like let me log in for more than 5 seconds before I get error 9000 server crash

ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY, ENTHUSIASTICALLY

 

AGREE 100%

 

great ideas, great presentation, AWESOME vision for the force attacks for consulars

 

for those that love rock clunker and pebble throw, definitely they should be kept in the game, just make them higher level, higher damage or special utility SAGE attacks. seems to me THROWING a rock (with gravity and momentum) would travel FARTHER than a force attack anyways.

 

I really think most shadows would LOVE having quicker, more "striking" looking force attacks for their spammed mid-range abilities and sages wouldn't mind having to see those cooler animations on TOP of still being able to use the rock stuff if they so choose

 

PLEASE consider this devs and GREAT job Dyvim

I actually love Project, I think changing Shock's animation would be better than changing Project. As for the animations, I havent had inappropriately themed objects pulled out of the ground often enough to be noticeable. They always seem fine to me. And these things can always be refined.

 

However, I feel that Telekinetic Throw could use some love. Its animation is rather lackluster. Rather than pebbles, I think something along the lines of throwing multiple objects smaller than project at the enemy instead of pebbles at intervals that run in line with the ticks of damage. It'd be a sort of rapid fire Project.

I love the project animation and I would be sad if they removed our ability to throw big pieces of junk at evil agents of the empire.

 

But I also agree with the OP. More 'pure' force moves seems thematically more correct. The ideas someone had on the boards before the wipe of making project into something more shock-like (force punch if you will) and using the project animation to tear up multiple pieces of junk to throw at people for the channeled Throw would look awesome. Or maybe it would be over the top.

 

As it stands now I'm more annoyed by the delay of project than anything else, but I do support more 'pure force' animations for the consular.

I love the project animation and I would be sad if they removed our ability to throw big pieces of junk at evil agents of the empire.

 

But I also agree with the OP. More 'pure' force moves seems thematically more correct. The ideas someone had on the boards before the wipe of making project into something more shock-like (force punch if you will) and using the project animation to tear up multiple pieces of junk to throw at people for the channeled Throw would look awesome. Or maybe it would be over the top.

 

As it stands now I'm more annoyed by the delay of project than anything else, but I do support more 'pure force' animations for the consular.

 

Not sure how I feel about "force punch", I mean it would work and is probably pretty simple and easy to implement, but the idea just feels kind of odd to me, I'm not sure why. However it did give me an idea. If you took project and made it a higher level long range sage ability like people said...

 

and make the new Shock equivalent like a force-pull-the-rug-out-from-under-a-bad-guy kind of move. Where you wave your hand the enemy does a quick little half-flip and hit the ground. And the time it takes them to fall and get back up counts as the stun part of the move, or something like that.

 

If a strong or elite resist the stun effect then they don't fall over in the first place, there's just the force "ripple" that spawns normally around the enemies legs and they take damage. Like they still were injured resisting the effects of the telekinetic attack.

Assuming you could get Project animation to be environment correct (no rocks out of spaceships), then I would be ok with that being used for some other high level skill. But NOT the classes basic, bread and butter, skill. And Throw just has to go...besides it doesnt make sense that you can throw something, or accelerate pebbles fast enough to do damage, but they stop after 10 meters? No.

 

Force kinetic effects would make more sense with that initial 10 m range for consulars and shadows, though. Its just more reasonable. And it would look better.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Dyvim

NOPE

 

 

 

If you want to play a caster without the pebbles, roll sith mates.

NOPE

 

 

 

If you want to play a caster without the pebbles, roll sith mates.

 

YES

 

I do have a sorcerer...and played one through 6 beta builds, as well as a sage. It just makes the poor consular animations stand out even more. And its not just when my own toon uses them. You have to see the craptasms every time there is a consular, shadow/sage in your grp. Which is about every time.

 

So pretending they dont exist doesnt work.

I don't mind the animations.....

I agree with the OP 100%. Its funny actually, he explained what I always imagined perfectly. I would LOVE to see this implemented and I would even love a dev response regarding this since so many people seem to be for it.

 

Edit: I will say, however, that I do not mind the current animations, but I'd definitely love to see the change some time in the near future. (Hopefully)

Edited December 17, 2011 by KinKyder

I dont think anyone is saying "get RID" of rock throwing/pebble tossing,

 

just give consulars, especially shadows, MORE options

 

I really don't like the current project/throw animations, id love another option for an ability that serves as my staple force range attacks, the way the game seems to be set up now, shadows really HAVE to cast either project or throw a LOT to be viable in ANY build.

 

sages seem to get more choices, many of their proc buffs will benefit MULTIPLE ranged attacks, verses many of the shadow buffs which ONLY buff either project or throw.

 

all the OP is asking for is switching animations, put the cooler force attacks LOWER/EARLIER in the consular arsenal and put the rock throwing animations higher up in specific trees so that people who love those animations can still have them

i'm with op, here.

It just looks silly to pull a million droids out of the ground.

While I'm not saying the animation is perfect, the developers knew exactly how many were playing consulars during the beta and it could be that those who thought the animation needed to be changed were in the vast minority. Hypothetically if 25% were unsatisfied with the animation but 75% were satisfied, why take the time to change something if the large majority of players were content with it? That could easily be why they never saw a need to change it; more players were content with it than those that thought it needed to be changed. Just saying.

I dont think anyone is saying "get RID" of rock throwing/pebble tossing,

 

just give consulars, especially shadows, MORE options

 

I really don't like the current project/throw animations, id love another option for an ability that serves as my staple force range attacks, the way the game seems to be set up now, shadows really HAVE to cast either project or throw a LOT to be viable in ANY build.

 

sages seem to get more choices, many of their proc buffs will benefit MULTIPLE ranged attacks, verses many of the shadow buffs which ONLY buff either project or throw.

 

all the OP is asking for is switching animations, put the cooler force attacks LOWER/EARLIER in the consular arsenal and put the rock throwing animations higher up in specific trees so that people who love those animations can still have them

 

What? No... sucks for a Sage as much as for a Shadow... Early on you feel like a complete idiot as you pick up non related items from the ground and hurl them at enemies.

 

Then your most used effect (even for an early Sage) is GOD DAMN THROW... IT SUCKS... IT SUCKS SOOOO MUCH... I did defend it once but I've just got tired of the rubbish stream of pebbles that don't even look like they are moving that fast.

 

Meanwhile Jedi Knights get awesome Sabre classes. They get super cool animations in the form of force leap AND the master strike animation.

 

Sith dudes get very cool lightening effects...

 

I'm stuck throwing little rocks when I saw Satele Shaun hurl someone through a mountain with her Kinetic combat traits!!

Great post. I'm actually OK with Project and TK Throw, but I think the suggestions here are top notch!

Im fine with the current animations, but I wouldnt say that I "like" them. Once I started actually playing theyre not nearly so bad as some people make them out to be.

Great persuasive essay. I hope bioware pays attention. I love your ideas. Often in the movies a jedi will use a quick instant force burst and i was wondering where this was in the game.

 

My fear is that they have significant resources and enthusiasm invested in the project animation. They have been touting the idea that it changes forms randomly since early beta. I hope they can see that while technically impressive and original it still misses the mark for most fans. I hope their erogance and/or pride doesnt get in the way of making the right choice.