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BW: How to nerf healers w/o nerfing healers.


ViciousFett

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Right now healers are the bane for WZ queues. Having them or not having them pretty much dictates how the match will go (especially for Arenas), and until you make non-ranked queues evenly pair sides it will remain very frustrating. :mad:

 

Aside from that, healers currently do not require accuracy to heal friendly targets, which makes several debuffs useless on healers. DPS and Tank classes have hardly any tools to combat healers (especially Operatives/scoundrels). Even the uncleanseable Madness dots can be removed by Ops/scounds...

 

I propose two changes:

1. Make healing dependent on accuracy. It won't make it necessary to gear above 100% tech accuracy for PVE, but others class' accuracy debuffs will actually do something.

 

2. Make tank class' single target and aoe taunts lower heal accuracy (as well as damage).

Edited by ViciousFett
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First of all, Commando healers don't need another nerf.

 

And honestly, whenever I am doing wzs, I notice that a lot of people really are terrible at dps. I mean, their dps never gets above 700. It's really sad.

 

I think that if people could actually play their class to 100% potential (about 5-10% do) and if they timed their cc, it's possible to burst down a healer relatively easy (not guarded).

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First of all, Commando healers don't need another nerf.

 

And honestly, whenever I am doing wzs, I notice that a lot of people really are terrible at dps. I mean, their dps never gets above 700. It's really sad.

 

I think that if people could actually play their class to 100% potential (about 5-10% do) and if they timed their cc, it's possible to burst down a healer relatively easy (not guarded).

 

I don't understand how that is the problem because the players that are playing healers are from the same player base as the bad dps that you are talking about and they are doing tremendously well overall. Somehow it's easier to heal and outdo the dps. It's just easier to spam heals than it is to coordinate multiple dps, heals requires very little coordination.

 

But really the problem is that people have figured out how easy it is to heal and you are getting matches with 2 or 3 healers all cross-healing and all with guards. Then all they need is 2 dps to destroy the other team.

 

I've been on both sides of it and I destroy when there are more healers on our side than the other especially if they are operatives or I'm destroyed when it's the other way around. My skill or lack thereof seems to be inconsequential.

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First of all, Commando healers don't need another nerf.

 

And honestly, whenever I am doing wzs, I notice that a lot of people really are terrible at dps. I mean, their dps never gets above 700. It's really sad.

 

I think that if people could actually play their class to 100% potential (about 5-10% do) and if they timed their cc, it's possible to burst down a healer relatively easy (not guarded).

 

Well, 700 DPS is what you get when you're running all over the map to cap objectives :p mind you, a lot of people aren't the brainless deeps monkeys that'll just be at middle (or whereever the fighting is) and improve their stats.

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First of all, Commando healers don't need another nerf.

 

And honestly, whenever I am doing wzs, I notice that a lot of people really are terrible at dps. I mean, their dps never gets above 700. It's really sad.

 

I think that if people could actually play their class to 100% potential (about 5-10% do) and if they timed their cc, it's possible to burst down a healer relatively easy (not guarded).

 

As a DPS that is frequently on the top of the rankings for both wins and losses of matches, I can tell you good dps feel this way about healers too. It's not a L2P issue, its a OP FOTM healers issue, I agree merc and sorc are where they should be, but when you get enough cross-healing going there's nothing the DPS or Tanks can do. Especially if the other team isn't as blessed with healer numbers.

Edited by ViciousFett
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As a DPS that is frequently on the top of the rankings for both wins and losses of matches, I can tell you good dps feel this way about healers too. It's not a L2P issue, its OP FOTM healers issue, I agree merc and sorc are where they should be, but when you get enough cross-healing going there's nothing the DPS or Tanks can do. Especially if the other team isn't as blessed with healer numbers.

 

As a good dps who is generally at the top of the charts I can tell you that killing an unguarded healer is so LOL that it is pathetic (guarded healers just require coordination).

 

Now, when there are 4-6 healers in a warzone everything goes to mush, but that's not an issue with healing, that is a matchmaking issue.

 

You actually identified the issue in your post, it's not that healing is strong it is that there is no matchmaking (and a lot of really bad dps). If dps is actually weak and healing is so strong, how can a team with 5 healers ever actually wipe a group...

 

P.S> You see more healers in warzones because the TTK without a healer is so low and if you are healing you can ensure that there will be at least one healer - thought most of the these "healers" are actually free kills.

Edited by alexsamma
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As a DPS that is frequently on the top of the rankings for both wins and losses of matches, I can tell you good dps feel this way about healers too. It's not a L2P issue, its a OP FOTM healers issue, I agree merc and sorc are where they should be, but when you get enough cross-healing going there's nothing the DPS or Tanks can do. Especially if the other team isn't as blessed with healer numbers.

 

Honestly, the simple solution would be the implementation of a matchmaking system.

 

But BW is too lazy or doesn't care

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First of all, Commando healers don't need another nerf.

 

And honestly, whenever I am doing wzs, I notice that a lot of people really are terrible at dps. I mean, their dps never gets above 700. It's really sad.

 

I think that if people could actually play their class to 100% potential (about 5-10% do) and if they timed their cc, it's possible to burst down a healer relatively easy (not guarded).

 

This!

 

The problem is, a L2P issue of DPSers. Putting something, that takes actuall skill to nerf healers probably wont make a difference. A bad DPS has just no chance killing a mediocre Operative healer on its own and thats where people that make these posts have a "perception problem". Its not the OP healer, its the sucky dps.

 

I do agree, that its getting rediculess, if a team has 4 healers, but this should probably be adressed in the 164631 WZ balancing thread.

 

And 5-%10% that play a class to 100% potential? lol, just lol. There are maybe 100 players in this whole game, that are playing their class to full potential.

Edited by kaimelion
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I'm going to quote two of my replies from reddit thread linking to this discussion. The first is before I understood what the OP meant about turning accuracy debuffs into healing debuffs.

 

Firstly, requiring accuracy for healing is a bad idea right now, as none of the healing gear has it. If you want to re-balance the stats when a new gear level drops, be my guest. Though we already have a stat for tuning healing in PvP. It's called Expertise. So, if they want to make an adjustment healing, it wouldn't require a new unnecessary system. Just use Expertise.

 

They can then spend that time addressing the lack of diminishing returns on interrupts in PvP. So they can put all the healing classes on an even footing before making adjustments.

 

Overwhelmingly the problem with the non-Scoundrel healing classes is interrupt related. When you're burning down a healer. It's an easy enough thing for 2 dps to rotate interrupts on them. And the existing tools for defending against interrupts aren't enough.

 

Speaking as a Scoundrel PvP healer, yes we do need a little bit of a nerf. I think some of the problem has to do with players not employing the right strategy to take down the Scoundrel. Though I had a match were 2 dps + a healer couldn't down me + a tank. In that case the problem wasn't so much the healing, but the guard + healing.

 

If I had to focus two areas for adjustment for PvP Scoundrel healers. I would focus on (re)moving the Scramble talent to another tree and/or nerfing sub 30% Emergency Medpac spam in some way.

 

Here's after:

 

That's a HUGE balance swing towards DPS in PvP. And, I'm not sure it's entirely warranted.

 

I wouldn't be against the proliferation of healing debuffs, as long as they reduced healing by a static %. But, I would push for a reduction in guard efficacy to something like 40-45%. As a combination with interrupt diminishing returns, and healing debuffs for more dps classes.

Edited by Aikion
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Lately I have been running parsec when I pvp, just now I was on my Combat spec sentinel and for the final engagement I pulled 3,361 dps... in non-optimized 65's (on a warzone dummie I am parsing ~2650 over five minutes).

 

Obviously this kind of damage is not sustainable throughout and entire warzone (downtime, re-spawns, transitions, etc), and there are multiple ways that the enemy team could have neutered my burst; that being said, even if I cannot kill a healer there is zero chance that they are healing anyone else unless they are being assisted by a teammate, but isn't that pvp... players actually playing with and against other players?

 

DPS have all of the tools that they need to kill healers, it is simply a matter of utilizing the tools available to you and overcoming the opposing players - healers do not need to be nerfed.

Edited by alexsamma
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Right now healers are the bane for WZ queues. Having them or not having them pretty much dictates how the match will go (especially for Arenas), and until you make non-ranked queues evenly pair sides it will remain very frustrating. :mad:

 

Aside from that, healers currently do not require accuracy to heal friendly targets, which makes several debuffs useless on healers. DPS and Tank classes have hardly any tools to combat healers (especially Operatives/scoundrels). Even the uncleanseable Madness dots can be removed by Ops/scounds...

 

I propose two changes:

1. Make healing dependent on accuracy. It won't make it necessary to gear above 100% tech accuracy for PVE, but others class' accuracy debuffs will actually do something.

 

2. Make tank class' single target and aoe taunts lower heal accuracy (as well as damage).

 

Im with you 100% on this one.

 

I even suggest that you can make a cap on how much kolto/heals you can abosorb in each fight. After you break combat the limit is renewd. It's so frustrating to fight a target and have to beat his Health down about 3-4 times over since some healer is healing him back up all the time. I can accept 1 or 2 extra rounds, but as it is now its infinite number of times u can beat his Health from 100% to 1% and the next second he is back to 100%. Its just redicilous!

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DPS have all of the tools that they need to kill healers, it is simply a matter of utilizing the tools available to you and overcoming the opposing players - healers do not need to be nerfed.

 

Go back and read the thread title. It's not a nerf to healers, it's just a change to how accuracy is accounted for so that ALL classes are equally affected by accuracy debuffs.

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As a DPS that is frequently on the top of the rankings for both wins and losses of matches, I can tell you good dps feel this way about healers too. It's not a L2P issue, its a OP FOTM healers issue, I agree merc and sorc are where they should be, but when you get enough cross-healing going there's nothing the DPS or Tanks can do. Especially if the other team isn't as blessed with healer numbers.

 

Combined preoblem of HUGE heals in this game and too many premade teams taht faces random PUG teams.

 

Totally messed up game.

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Go back and read the thread title. It's not a nerf to healers, it's just a change to how accuracy is accounted for so that ALL classes are equally affected by accuracy debuffs.

 

We do not need anymore healing debuffs in this game, burst dps + CC is more than enough to burn through healers.

 

When dps stop struggling to break 200k in a full length match we can start talking about making it easier to kill healers.

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I don't understand how that is the problem because the players that are playing healers are from the same player base as the bad dps that you are talking about and they are doing tremendously well overall. Somehow it's easier to heal and outdo the dps. It's just easier to spam heals than it is to coordinate multiple dps, heals requires very little coordination.

 

But really the problem is that people have figured out how easy it is to heal and you are getting matches with 2 or 3 healers all cross-healing and all with guards. Then all they need is 2 dps to destroy the other team.

 

I've been on both sides of it and I destroy when there are more healers on our side than the other especially if they are operatives or I'm destroyed when it's the other way around. My skill or lack thereof seems to be inconsequential.

 

More healers doesn't mean instant win.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45118787/SWTOR/Screenshot_2014-01-02_01_44_39_287725.jpg

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True, but pretty much no Operative healer worth their salt will waste their Evade on Madness DoTs.

 

considering my madness sorc CD crits for 4200+ a tick, its worth they evade if i catch it after the first tick. I tend to save my evades for Ambush/Maul/Ravage/Madness cleanse

 

I will admit operative healers have more tools to stay alive vs BAD dps, but if i have two good dps on me when im healing on my operative, I'm going down. Most players cannot pull 700 dps or even use interrupts, so of course they will never be able to drop a healer

Edited by dego-harmonium
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yeah, its very important, that hybrid PTs are getting even stronger...

 

Any class that has taunts. Yes. A good change, imo. This will make the classes that aren't pure DPS more useful for PvP, without buffing up their dmg/survivability or something else. And will increase the difference between a good player and a bad player. Bads don't use taunts. Healing is too strong PVP, healers shouldn't be able to outheal so much damage. Will this make tanks OP? Maybe. But if it is fine for their taunts to reduce dmg, it is perfectly fine for them to reduce healing, too.

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