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Skank tanks arenít the problem youíre looking forÖ

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Skank tanks arenít the problem youíre looking forÖ

lodge's Avatar


lodge
02.20.2018 , 03:08 PM | #1
So with all the uproar and wringing of hands about skank tanks, I finally felt the need to put in my $0.02. I first started PvPíing with the Dark vs. Light event (since it was a requirement to get exp gear), when skank tanking was pretty much the only way to go.

Now, there are new posts once a week about how skank tanks are ruining the game. What changed?!? Therein lies the real problem:
  1. DPS with guard. Yes, it makes you feel bad when a skank tank is tops in dpsÖbut are you sure itís a skank tank? Chances are, itís a DPS who uses their guard and taunts. Several ways to tell but that isnít the point of this post.
  2. Gear disparity. Back when there were only two tiers of PvP gear, everyone was basically on even ground. But now, my main is in 248ís and even with around 1,500 points in def/shield/absorb, I still have as much in power/crit/alarc as dps who are lesser geared. Damage-wise, itís night-and-day comparing my skank in 248ís vs my skank whoís been bolstered.

Also,
  1. Donít judge a class by its best players. If real skank tanks are always near the top of the dps leaderboard, then itís a problem. If itís the same handful of names, just accept that theyíre really good.
  2. There will be times when skanks top the boards. As an example, if Iím being double-healed while guarding a door in Voidstar with imps all around me, I can calmly go through my rotation and put up big numbers. Same other nodes and arenas if there are melees grouped around meÖitís mostly fluff damage.
  3. Generally if Iím tops of the leaderboard (unless like noted above), it means we got crushed. If Iím 4th or 5th, it means we won or were at least competitive.

Finally, you donít want defensive stats to be fixed!
  1. Right now, I can delay an AHG cap for a good 30-45 seconds, shorter or longer depending on how many Iím fighting, gear, etc. Give me tank stats that matter, all of sudden I can go more than a minute on averageÖif my DCDs reset, I can hold it even longer.
  2. You think guarded healers are tough now? Imagine what happens when their tank can mitigate even more damage (direct and guarded) and healers can spend more time on themselves or other teammatesÖthe tank/healer combo will be unkillable.

Since gear won't be fixed anytime soon, let's just get rid of DPS with guard (and off-heals, but that's another post)

trashy_spartan's Avatar


trashy_spartan
02.20.2018 , 03:45 PM | #2
Tanks in dps gear have been the norm for so long that I can't remember when it wasn't a thing.

IMO, the problem is that most of the goods pvpers have left the game and those pvpers weren't outdps by tanks in dps gear. Nowadays, dps players that can't do 2k dps in a wz is the norm and because they don't know their class/DCDs, they will be outdps by tanks. But that was already case before 5.0 when you only had bads in your group.

So tanks in dps gears seems OP because the general skill level of the pvpers has been going down, but they can easily be killed by good players.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.20.2018 , 04:19 PM | #3
LOL. this topic and its responce. LOL

Schoock's Avatar


Schoock
02.20.2018 , 05:06 PM | #4
Congratulations, out of the 7 points you make not one makes any sense.
Faction imbalance is the scientific term for saying player skills mature at a later age than that of the intended audience of a certain faction.

Ne'laa & other Mentally Challenged from The Red Eclipse

Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
02.20.2018 , 11:28 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by trashy_spartan View Post
Tanks in dps gear have been the norm for so long that I can't remember when it wasn't a thing.

IMO, the problem is that most of the goods pvpers have left the game and those pvpers weren't outdps by tanks in dps gear. Nowadays, dps players that can't do 2k dps in a wz is the norm and because they don't know their class/DCDs, they will be outdps by tanks. But that was already case before 5.0 when you only had bads in your group.

So tanks in dps gears seems OP because the general skill level of the pvpers has been going down, but they can easily be killed by good players.
If a tank does 2k DPS and tops a leaderboard I'd agree that the problem with that team was the poor overall DPS and not the tank, but you not infrequently see tanks with with DPS numbers that are well above that and in a range that any DPS putting up similar numbers would also usually be expected to be at or near the top of the leaderboard.

Some might hand wave that as just being "fluff" damage but damage is damage and if not healed it all eventually leads to people being ground down. Outgoing damage, regardless of spec, is also one of the best "defenses" in the game. If enough damage is going out, regardless of spec, it causes damage rotations on the other team to be interrupted by DCDs, LoS, escapes, ect. The old adage that the best defense is a good offense is also partly true with SWTOR's PVP, and that aids with the very long (too long, IMO) TTK of healer-tank pairs in anything that isn't an arena.

Support classes shouldn't be able to match pure DPS for damage output, period. It breaks trinity.

If it were up to me however the DPS specs in this game would also lose much in the way of self-healing and the effectiveness of DCDs in PVP, since tanky DPS break trinity just as much. The problem with SWTOR's PVP is that you have too many jack-of-all-trades specs that are good at something beyond their trinity role and it all leads to TTK that is too high in the level 70 tier. Does anyone enjoy parsing dummy matches where deaths on both teams are in the low single digits?

The only trinity role that isn't broken in SWTOR's PVP right now is healing. But give it time. I'm sure the devs can get that sorted with a future update. I for one look forward to Operative or Mercenary healers topping future DPS leaderboards.

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
02.20.2018 , 11:55 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by trashy_spartan View Post
Tanks in dps gear have been the norm for so long that I can't remember when it wasn't a thing.

IMO, the problem is that most of the goods pvpers have left the game and those pvpers weren't outdps by tanks in dps gear. Nowadays, dps players that can't do 2k dps in a wz is the norm and because they don't know their class/DCDs, they will be outdps by tanks. But that was already case before 5.0 when you only had bads in your group.

So tanks in dps gears seems OP because the general skill level of the pvpers has been going down, but they can easily be killed by good players.
I don't think that is any excuse for any skank to do 8k DPS in a damn arena 4vs4, unless you support broken game mechanics ?

First of all, tanks are support class and should never match the DPS of pure dps classes.

Second of all, Biwoare has NERFED the DPS Sins, Anniu marauder, Carnage, and mercs and left the damage of skanks UNTOUCHED.

WHY would anyone play a DPS jugg, PT SIN, when their skank versions cand do the same damage and survive twice as long ? You see, here is the big problem that needs to be adressed.

Also, why would anyone play pure tank in PVP, a spec that does literally nothing ? most boring thing ever....

Stop with lame excuses like skanks are OP because people are bad. They need to be adressed. Sorry to break it for you. I don't have a problem with them, but they are broken at the moment. DPS is DPS, tanks should be tanks and in DPS gear, there should be limitations to their damage. THeir survival is fine.

TheDramaKing's Avatar


TheDramaKing
02.21.2018 , 04:49 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Schoock View Post
Congratulations, out of the 7 points you make not one makes any sense.
I second this.

themasterofevil's Avatar


themasterofevil
02.21.2018 , 11:43 AM | #8
Okay lets take a look at why Skank tanks are broken. I will be referencing RANKED PVP. Especially group ranked because in regs skank tanks donít really matter.

First, lets talk about how each tank spec gets a damage buff to one of their main AOE attacks. For example, PT tank gets a 100% damage bonus to Firestorm. A skank tank PT can hit 8 enemies for 25-30k damage with firestorm. Its essentially smash monkey 2.0. Granted, it has to crit on all 8 people but it does a lot of damage without crit. It can crit for 13-15k on a normal PT tank. Same with jugg and sin. Depredating volts can crit back to back for 18k. It hits 4 times so essentially a sin tank can do ~50k damage or so with 3 stacks of the damage buff. Not to mention that sin tanks have the highest mitigation possible.

In group ranked, teams run 2 skank tanks, 1 healer, and a high burst dps (like mm sniper or arsenal merc). The tanks never have to switch guard. Both tanks cc everyone and then jump on a target, each do 25-30k crushing blows (so about 50-60k damage) and the sniper or merc does an additional 30k damage (now up to 90k damage). By that time youíre dead. The fact that a T A N K can do burst dps like that is insane. They just global everyone into the dirt and you cannot do anything about it.

Now lets talk about how all tanks get AOE heal reduction. Two skank tanks can apply a constant 20% heal reduction on a whole team. This means that healing output from your healer is constantly reduced to low numbers. The skank tanksm burst will overwhelm your healer and you will die.

On top of all of this, 2 skank tanks in a granked team have the survivability bonuses of a tank, while retaining stupid levels of dps output.

Are skank tank teams possible to beat? Yes. However, itís very difficult and the average team who hasnít been playing granked together forever will not beat a good skank tank team. Dps output against skank tank teams can be reduced by ~80% due to skank tanks constantly taunting each dps and no guard swaps. You could be doing 5.5k dps realistically but with that guard and taunt always up, youíll be doing 2k dps. This wouldnít be a problem with 2 normal tanks because normal tanks do not have the capability to global someone.

So please tell me why skank tanks arenít the problem?
One ShŰt - SS Slinger - Star Forge
One ShŲt - MM Sniper - Star Forge
ńnd - Medicine Operative - Star Forge

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
02.21.2018 , 02:14 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by themasterofevil View Post
Okay lets take a look at why Skank tanks are broken. I will be referencing RANKED PVP. Especially group ranked because in regs skank tanks donít really matter.
Honestly I feel I make more of a difference in regs than ranked, where the dps should be good enough to work around or through guard.

Quote:
First, lets talk about how each tank spec gets a damage buff to one of their main AOE attacks. For example, PT tank gets a 100% damage bonus to Firestorm. A skank tank PT can hit 8 enemies for 25-30k damage with firestorm. Its essentially smash monkey 2.0. Granted, it has to crit on all 8 people but it does a lot of damage without crit. It can crit for 13-15k on a normal PT tank. Same with jugg and sin. Depredating volts can crit back to back for 18k. It hits 4 times so essentially a sin tank can do ~50k damage or so with 3 stacks of the damage buff. Not to mention that sin tanks have the highest mitigation possible.
Since when does ranked have 8 people on a team? I don't deny the aoe potential of skanks is pretty good. It's also much better from my vigi guardian. Also sins have the highest mitigation theoretically and among the lower end of the damage potential.
The situation you describe is me when I'm sitting at a node in voidstar aoeing to prevent a door cap.

Quote:
In group ranked, teams run 2 skank tanks, 1 healer, and a high burst dps (like mm sniper or arsenal merc). The tanks never have to switch guard. Both tanks cc everyone and then jump on a target, each do 25-30k crushing blows (so about 50-60k damage) and the sniper or merc does an additional 30k damage (now up to 90k damage). By that time youíre dead. The fact that a T A N K can do burst dps like that is insane. They just global everyone into the dirt and you cannot do anything about it.
I admit my ranked experience is rather limited but I remember no teams with double skanks. A skank PT and dps PT maybe. In our case we had my skank guardian and a dps guardian.

If you have a decent tank they should be able to guard swap, thus negating the need for the second tank and allowing you to run an actual dps in that spot.

If you're getting busted down by a tank, I'm sorry but you need some kind of help. I can outlast most dps sure. But at some point it comes down to who kills who first. I can guard swap perfectly well and our healer is good, so we can run a second dps to kill stuff faster.

I have out damaged plenty of dps in an unranked environment. In a ranked environment not so much.

Quote:
Now lets talk about how all tanks get AOE heal reduction. Two skank tanks can apply a constant 20% heal reduction on a whole team. This means that healing output from your healer is constantly reduced to low numbers. The skank tanksm burst will overwhelm your healer and you will die.
This is part of being a tank. It provides team utility which is part of our purpose. Also, if your healer is being bursted by a tank with no help from dps he needs help. If 2 dps and a tank are able to burst him, good for them, they coordinated well and maybe you should have done the same.

Quote:
On top of all of this, 2 skank tanks in a granked team have the survivability bonuses of a tank, while retaining stupid levels of dps output.
Who's running double skank? As a skank having another person guarding would drive me insane. I hate having a second guard on an 8 man team, much less 4.

Quote:
Are skank tank teams possible to beat? Yes. However, itís very difficult and the average team who hasnít been playing granked together forever will not beat a good skank tank team. Dps output against skank tank teams can be reduced by ~80% due to skank tanks constantly taunting each dps and no guard swaps. You could be doing 5.5k dps realistically but with that guard and taunt always up, youíll be doing 2k dps. This wouldnít be a problem with 2 normal tanks because normal tanks do not have the capability to global someone.

So please tell me why skank tanks arenít the problem?
If I get to exchange damage for more survivability you're just going to hate me worse. The good skanks are not the ones that run around trying to be dps. We're the ones who make our teams incredibly difficult to kill. I had someone come in our discord to complain about the number of tanks on our team. It was one tank - me. I was just so effective at guard swapping it negated his team's ability to burst someone effectively. Their dps was low also.

Which leads me to the biggest single problem in pvp: dps that can't do dps or can't coordinate at all.

That said people are getting their wish. I see the forthcoming skank nerf as most likely implying the death of tanking in yet another aspect of this game.

Glocko's Avatar


Glocko
02.21.2018 , 03:42 PM | #10
I love hearing how all these skanks are doing 8k dps..... joust wait until they reduce tank dps by 10% and increase their damage mitigation by 20% and increase their overall defense, shield and absorb..... The forums are gonna be hilarious