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Projectiles and flamethrowers vs Jedi


Girnobi

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Lore wise Jedi, Sith, and other force users or, more specifically, lightsaber wielders' ability to survive against opponents with ranged weaponry comes from their ability to deflect blaster bolts.

 

Why don't people interested in killing Jedi rely on old fashioned projectile weapons and flamethrowers? Sure, pre-cognitive reflexes will let you block a blaster, but if you try to block a regular lead bullet you'd only have a super-heated lead bullet slamming into you after it passes through the restrained plasma blade of the lightsaber. Same goes with flamethrowers. Can't exactly block a 25ft jet of burning prometheum.

 

Jedi and Sith are a big enough threat to both the empire and the republic that it seems like both would invest in equipping units with AK-47s instead of Blastech D-25s if they knew they were going to be facing Jedi.

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I believe he's referring to the universe in general. I've heard that weapons that fire lead were called 'kinetic weapons' and that they are considered primitive. I don't know why, but that's what I've heard. Not sure why they use that instead of blasters. Something about personal shield generators or scarce resources I don't know.
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Neither Jedi nor Sith are very widespread on the Star Wars Universe. The percentage of targets that the Imperial Army fights who are actually Jedi is probably somewhere around 1%

 

Only trained elite warriors are deployed to hunt Jedi, and those are usually equipped with flamethrowers, rocket launchers, gas grenades, etc

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In the early days, shortly after the lightsabre was invented, Jedi and Sith set aside their differences for an unprecedented and never repeated act of cooperation. Using their combined political and military strength, they lobbied, bullied, coerced and bribed the politicians in the galaxy to put a special law into place.

This law forever banned all small arms and direct fire infantry support weapons with a muzzle velocity of over 100m/s and a technical rate of fire of more than 180rpm.

With this astonnishing success the forceusers ensured, that no weapon they would face would be to fast to deflect with their lightsabres, thus cementing their superiority on the field of battle for all times, regardless of technical advances.

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Basically, the reason slugthrowers, gas weapons, flamethrowers etc aren't used against Force users is... They do not work.

 

A Force-user - a trained Force user like a Jedi especially - will still f*cking kill you, presumably after pulling the antiquated collector's item straight out of your hands just by looking at you funny.

 

And remember, the only reason Jedi and Sith use lightsabers and not blasters? Because if they used blasters instead, everyone else would be even more screwed (see the original Tales of the Jedi comics).

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This law forever banned all small arms and direct fire infantry support weapons with a muzzle velocity of over 100m/s and a technical rate of fire of more than 180rpm.

 

And that totally makes sense because, as we all know, bounty hunters, pirates, smugglers and imperials are such law abiding citizens and would never dare to break such a law :rolleyes:

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I think you all seem to forget that the lightsaber is not the only weapon a Sith or a Jedi posses. A powerful Force user can easily shield himself/herself by simply using the force, blocking any incoming missiles. And that is just one of the many ways a Force user can deal with projectiles and flamethrowers. Moreover flamethrowers and grenades are indeed used(as someone already mentioned) by Bounty Hunters and Imperial agents.

 

As for why not equip units with AK-47s, I think the answer to that is quite obvious really. If a lightsaber can slash through metal droids as easily as a hot knife cuts through butter, what makes you think a lead bullet will be able to simply "pass" through it. And anyway the whole concept of seeing Republic troopers armed with AK-47s is just ridiculous, I mean come on this is Star Wars we are talking about.

 

Lastly, its not as simple as "this weapon beats that weapon". Its all about the individual behind the weapon, Bounty Hunters are known to be able to take down Jedi using their flamethrowers and Jedi are known to cut Bounty hunters to pieces using their lightsabers.

 

In all seriousness if it was up to me such stupid threads should not even be allowed to be created in the first place.

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Acutaly, using contemporary firearms could work.

 

1. A solid projectile can't be deflected back at you with a lightsabre. It will only be desintegrated.

 

2. Modern aussault rifles habe far higher muzzle velocity and rate of fire than SW blaster rifles were ever shown to have in any work.

 

We all know, Jedi and Sith are not invincible. Fire enogh blaster bolts at them, and their defence will be overwhelmed. With a modern assault rifle blasting projectiles with a velocity of 900m/s at 900rpm, I seriously doubt any Jedi or Sith will be able to mount an effective defence.

Fire from more than one point at once and even Luke Skywalker will be finished.

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Acutaly, using contemporary firearms could work.

 

1. A solid projectile can't be deflected back at you with a lightsabre. It will only be desintegrated.

 

2. Modern aussault rifles habe far higher muzzle velocity and rate of fire than SW blaster rifles were ever shown to have in any work.

 

We all know, Jedi and Sith are not invincible. Fire enogh blaster bolts at them, and their defence will be overwhelmed. With a modern assault rifle blasting projectiles with a velocity of 900m/s at 900rpm, I seriously doubt any Jedi or Sith will be able to mount an effective defence.

Fire from more than one point at once and even Luke Skywalker will be finished.

 

I have to disagree.

 

1. True a solid projectile cant be deflected back at you, but it can be blocked by the lightsaber.

2. Never underestimate a Jedi/Sith's reflexes and their ability to block using the lightsaber. Furthermore we dont actually know how fast a blaster bolt is, you said it yourself in the movies the average blaster bolt is not seen to be that fast but that was only because of the restrictions of the movie's special effects. I am not saying that a blaster bolt will have the same velocity as a modern assault rifle, but the difference between the two is not that big. And again I'm going to say that a powerful Jedi/Sith can easily block ANY incoming attack by simply using the force as a shield. As seen in the "Return" trailer when the Sith Pureblood master of Darth Malgus is able to block the missile fired at him from the Trooper, by simply shielding himself with the force.

 

All of this said I am not suggesting that Jedi/Sith are invincible or unbeatable, I am simply stating that having a modern assault rifle will NOT guarantee you a victory over a Force user. It might give you a slight advantage(faster bullets which wont be deflected back at you) but apart from that I really cannot see how having an AK with you means that you automatically have the upper hand versus a Force user.

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I never said an assault rifle would gurantee victory.

I just said, they would work as a weapon against them.

Higher velocity and rate of fire will multiply the prblem the Jedi is facing when trying to mount a defence.

A projectile with a velocity of 900m/s will cover a distance of 30 meters in 0.033 seconds.

Thats not much time to react, even vor a force user.

And 900rpm means 15 rounds per second. So, the next bullet is only 0.07 seconds behind. With recoil jerking the muzzle around, not even reading the shooters intent will tell the Force user where the next round will be aimed at.

 

Open field of fire, multiple shooters and too much distance for Fore leap, and yea, guess the Jedi is finished.

But that's true even with blasters. A faster gun will only reduce the neccessary number of shooters.

 

If it's one on one, no-one will be able to tell how it will end, but if I am the shooter in such a situation, I guess I would prefer a good old SG550 over a blaster any day.

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I believe he's referring to the universe in general. I've heard that weapons that fire lead were called 'kinetic weapons' and that they are considered primitive. I don't know why, but that's what I've heard. Not sure why they use that instead of blasters. Something about personal shield generators or scarce resources I don't know.

 

Speaking of personal shield generators (a little off-topic, i know :p) I once read that the only reason a Droideka was able to use a generator like that was because they were droids, and if a human tried using one, he would be fried by the radiation. Then I play TOR, and all of a sudden, everyone and their mother had a shield generator :eek: whats up with that? is it just because that the ones carried are far weaker, so theres no fear of radiation?

 

Also, to stay on topic, There are bounty hunters that get famous for kiling jedi, and there are Jedi who are famous for killing Bounty hunters, so obviously their weapons can work, but it depends on whos fighting, and their relative skill with their weapons.

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I never said an assault rifle would gurantee victory.

I just said, they would work as a weapon against them.

Higher velocity and rate of fire will multiply the prblem the Jedi is facing when trying to mount a defence.

A projectile with a velocity of 900m/s will cover a distance of 30 meters in 0.033 seconds.

Thats not much time to react, even vor a force user.

And 900rpm means 15 rounds per second. So, the next bullet is only 0.07 seconds behind. With recoil jerking the muzzle around, not even reading the shooters intent will tell the Force user where the next round will be aimed at.

 

Open field of fire, multiple shooters and too much distance for Fore leap, and yea, guess the Jedi is finished.

But that's true even with blasters. A faster gun will only reduce the neccessary number of shooters.

 

If it's one on one, no-one will be able to tell how it will end, but if I am the shooter in such a situation, I guess I would prefer a good old SG550 over a blaster any day.

 

I dont want to repeat myself over and over again, so I am just going to say this:

 

Force Shield + Force Leap + Cut down target = problem solved

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Also, to stay on topic, There are bounty hunters that get famous for kiling jedi, and there are Jedi who are famous for killing Bounty hunters, so obviously their weapons can work, but it depends on whos fighting, and their relative skill with their weapons.

 

Thank you.

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I dont want to repeat myself over and over again, so I am just going to say this:

 

Force Shield + Force Leap + Cut down target = problem solved

 

Using your own arguements and going by your own logic, having a Force Shield and Jedi reflexes doesn't guarantee victory against a well equipped/trained/prepared Bounty Hunter and/or squad of Imperial Troopers.

 

HK-47 and Atton Rand best describe how easy it is to kill Jedi

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Using your own arguements and going by your own logic, having a Force Shield and Jedi reflexes doesn't guarantee victory against a well equipped/trained/prepared Bounty Hunter and/or squad of Imperial Troopers.

 

HK-47 and Atton Rand best describe how easy it is to kill Jedi

 

If you read my previous posts you would know that I never said or suggested that this simple combination would guarantee me a victory versus an "equipped/trained/prepared Bounty Hunter". It would however, give me the victory against an average republic trooper armed with a modern assault rifle.

 

Now replace the AVERAGE(notice the word average) republic trooper and his modern assault rifle(and the whole stupid idea of bringing AK-47s into SW) with a seasoned Bounty hunter and all of his weapons and you get quite a different story. It really comes down to the idnividual in that case, and that was the point I was trying to make from the very beginning.

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If you read my previous posts you would know that I never said or suggested that this simple combination would guarantee me a victory versus an "equipped/trained/prepared Bounty Hunter". It would however, give me the victory against an average republic trooper armed with a modern assault rifle.

Wait, you do realize you are not actually a Jedi, right? You seem to be taking this discussion a little too personal lol

Edited by RendValor
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Wait, you do realize you are not actually a Jedi, right? You seem to be taking this discussion a little too personal lol

 

LOL, indeed i do realize the fact that unfortunately I am not a Jedi. I was simply stating what I would do if I was in the Jedi's shoes. Thanks for the post btw it really gave me a laugh XD

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You also have to realize that not all Jedi have all the force abilities. Much like an engineer can't master all fields of engineering or like a doctor can't cover all fields of medicine (which is why specializations exist), some Jedi may focus on more offensive telekinetic abilities while others may choose to master a more defensive use of the force. While Yoda and maybe Elder Obi Wan may've been able to use the force to shield themselves, Anakin, Kidi Adi Mundi, Ayala Secura and Master Windu certainly weren't
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A projectile whether it is a bullet, rocket, or even a rock are effective against lightsabers. The blade of a lightsabers is plasma. Plasma is super heated gas. That gas is contained by a force field (whether is it the force shaping the plasma or some other barrier is unknown to me). That means the plasma from blaster would be reflected due to the magnetic properties of plasma from the lightsaber. This means that of a bullet were to hit a lightsaber and it had no magnetic properties it would become either molten melt or super heated gas. Either one is extremely deadly to an unprotected person. In the best case scenario the Jedi would sustain 4th degree burns on a localized area along with the push from the momentum of the molten bullet. In the worst case the super heated gas will be breathed in by the Jedi, burning his/her lungs so badly oxygen cannot supplied to the body. The question of death by wound or death by lung searing is another debate in itself.
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A projectile whether it is a bullet, rocket, or even a rock are effective against lightsabers.

 

Actually no.

 

We see several occasions in the lore of objects being thrown at lightsaber-wielding Jedi and Sith, only to promptly be struck aside. By your logic, when Luke cuts apart the metal crates Vader throws at him in Empire Strikes Back, he would be hit by molten metal - that never happens.

 

Most likely, if any matter survives vaporization upon contact with a lightsaber's extremely high energy yield, it would be harmlessly scattered by that same energy.

 

The danger a machinegun poses to a lightsaber is the exact same as that posed by a rapid-fire blaster. There's a reason only Jedi and Sith - people who are trained in the use of the Force - can viably use lightsabers to defend themselves.

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You know; you guys seem to forget that Jedi and Sith do not deflect the blaster simply because they have good reflex, yes it could archive through some hard training, but they can do it because they use the Force. The ability to sense the danger and block it. They are not some Space samurai with good reflex, they can sense the danger.
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My own personal view is the whole dilemma is that this is the sad result of escalation as each author has sought to outdo the next in terms of Jedi 'godliness' on the battlefield. Myself? I have no qualms that a Jedi is a very dangerous opponent to face, but they are not gods. As has been mentioned before, Jedi do not master every power en masse. Any Jedi that does master every power would doubtless be the highest paragon of their time. Surely, if the Jedi were as mighty as EU authors make them out to be, we wouldn't have things such as the slaughter of Jedi on Geonosis.

 

Looking at the battle of Geonosis. I can't remember exact details but we have the Council member gunned down by Jango. We have a Geonosian sonic cannon that takes out two or three Jedi in one shot. We see the Jedi butchered, not by trained soldiers, but by mass-produced cannon fodder with rather dire targeting software. In Episode One, we find Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan pinned down by a pair of Destroyer droids. I'm assuming they can't advance because of the rate of fire. They certainly couldn't force leap, nor use the force to simply crush them. No, as Qui-Gon says, "It's a stand off.", and then they promptly withdraw.

 

I personally think, and I know it will never happen, that authors and fans need to tone down on just how powerful and godly Jedi really are. Yes, the force is a powerful ally, but it doesn't turn Jedi into unstoppable avatars of war that require multiple squads of elite soldiers with high-end gatling cannons to bring down. It gives them an advantage, yes. It makes them dangerous, yes. It doesn't and shouldn't make them virtually unstoppable.

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That's depend. Vader were able to choke s.o between 2 Destroyers just by looking through the monitor. So depend on how powerful the jedi/sith in question is. In the battle field it's harder for jedi and sith to defend themselves since there are multi threat sources, remember they have to depend on force sense a lot as in KOTOR state : " cut our the force you see a child a woman ", specially against cannon - well sith can just abandon their troops but i dont think jedi will - the lightsaber is not just energy sword, it's fused with the force that the jedi/sith use, if the jedi/sith strong enough they can deflect the cannon shot easily.
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