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Annihilation needs an anti-cleanse


majiinx

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Annihilation is a spec built around bleeds the bleeds add to our survivability and make up a large portion of our damage which works great against DPS and tanks but against healers it really hurts us as they have the ability to remove our bleeds. I think if a talented could be added to give us some defense to cleansing like say x% chance to resist cleanse or when our bleeds are dropped or removed it adds a weaker version, similar to lethality agents it would be really good. Also the cool down to Rupture should be removed I don't see why it should have a cool down on it.
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A talent deep in Anni tree: Every time one of your bleeds get cleansed/removed, you gain a 50% damage bonus to your next Annihilate. Lasts 15 seconds, stacks up to 2 times.

 

:)

 

Yea anything cause right now people can arbitrarily cleanse our dots with no penalty at all.

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stacks up to 2 times? lol be like a 10k annihilate think that would be a little much but i agree with ya for the most part

 

That would be actually be a rather good idea.

 

It would STILL be a dps loss, just not as muh of a big one. Especially since merc and operative can cleanse us baseline.

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A talent deep in Anni tree: Every time one of your bleeds get cleansed/removed, you gain a 50% damage bonus to your next Annihilate. Lasts 15 seconds, stacks up to 2 times.

 

:)

 

It will lead to griefing. you are beating one of my team mates, I want to troll him, i remove your dots from him so you can beat him harder.

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It will lead to griefing. you are beating one of my team mates, I want to troll him, i remove your dots from him so you can beat him harder.

 

I don't see the problem. You can also troll your team by breaking the 8 second cc on a white barred sent/mara, or in a variety of other ways. You're preventing some dmg now to take some more dmg later. I don't think the annihilate dmg buff should be as high as he suggested, but watchman/anni definitely needs something to counter the cleansing. Honestly at this point I'd be willing to just get the self heals back so I can break 200k lol.

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50% per stack might be a bit much, but a talent linked to the new extra annihilate stack and juyo form stack could be "additionnaly, if your bleeds are cleansed, you have a 100% chance of gaining "insert buff name" immediately finishing the cooldown on Annihilate, and increasing your next annihilate's damage by 20%.

 

Thats 40% roughly. It will STILL be a dps loss to have Deadly saber cleansed (the crit and damage on it is much more powerful than annihilate, and a double DS and Rupture cleanse would give you a coming big annihilate.

 

This would do 2 things :

 

-smooth over the dps loss

-in a way, protect at least some ticks of DS, since no healer would cleanse it under 2 stacks, because that would mean giving us another boosted annihilate a few seconds later. Its still very worth it to nuke 2 stacks + rupture off, but less of a no brainer.

 

The damage boost can be adjusted so roughly 40-50% of your average ticks can be recuperated by annihilate ((DS x2 stacks total damage + rupture) x 0.4)

 

Currently, annihilation is the sole DoT heavy spec that can be totally rendered harmless by a skilled healer of ANY class AND 2 dps spec of those class. It remains a very good duelling spec, but unless some 4vs4 WZ appear (which they won't) you rarely see a full duel now.

Edited by verfallen
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It really shocks me that Bioware would make a DoT based spec with no countermeasures for cleansing. I think everybody agrees that Annihilation can easily be made a non threat with a decent healer. If this spec is going to be based on DoTs we need something that can resist cleanse or reapply a weaker version of our DoTs like Sniper/Op get in Leathality also Rupture cool down should be removed there is no reason we should have a cool down on a DoT.
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Madness sorc's don't have any countermeasures against cleansing either and they do a just as big portion of their dmg through dots.

They should get something as well.

 

The small difference is only a sorc can cleanse madness, and they can reapply affliction whenever they want.

 

Creeping Terror should however be protected somewhat being the top tier ability.

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The small difference is only a sorc can cleanse madness, and they can reapply affliction whenever they want.

 

Creeping Terror should however be protected somewhat being the top tier ability.

 

Yea I'm not against madness sorc getting some kind of anti-cleanse. I think any DoT based spec should have cleanse defense and our primary should not have a cool down. I think also Annihilate should refresh our DoTs especially since it will have a lower cool down and we will have to use it more.

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The problem with anni is that any healer that specs into cleanse talent can cleanse our dots because they are physical and not force or tech. While as with lethality or say pt dots only a scoundrel can cleanse those... While with sorc/sage well only sorc/sage can cleanse there force dots and not scoundrel etcetcetc.
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The problem with anni is that any healer that specs into cleanse talent can cleanse our dots because they are physical and not force or tech. While as with lethality or say pt dots only a scoundrel can cleanse those... While with sorc/sage well only sorc/sage can cleanse there force dots and not scoundrel etcetcetc.

 

Merc/scoundrel cleanse them baseline, no need to even spec into it.

 

Specced sorc also cleanse them.

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Sorry had no problem with people cleansing my dots yet, btw difference to the sorcerer we have no dot we can spam on 8 people/mobs our dots are normally only on our priority target. I know their hard hitting DoT has a cool down but ther smaller hasn´t.

 

Even in Ranked War zones people normally heal through the dot rather than cleansing it, it is what I do with my sage, btw don´t forget Merciless Slash thats the other 50% of your damage^^

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Sorry had no problem with people cleansing my dots yet, btw difference to the sorcerer we have no dot we can spam on 8 people/mobs our dots are normally only on our priority target. I know their hard hitting DoT has a cool down but ther smaller hasn´t.

 

Even in Ranked War zones people normally heal through the dot rather than cleansing it, it is what I do with my sage, btw don´t forget Merciless Slash thats the other 50% of your damage^^

 

Actually...the bleeds are about 40%+ and annihilate/merciless is only about 25% then it's masterstrike for about 15% (also interruptable). Which leaves us with force builder attacks and annihilate/slash as our only 2 real attacks...which account for roughly 30% of our damage. We are short only 70% in pvp...that's all. Don't think anyone else has those same issues.

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Even without our DoTs we still have some really good damage. However the tree is mostly built around DoTs. Specing into Annihilate does more then just increase our DoT damage. We get extra Rage generation, a snare and self healing which make the spec very attractive in PvP, however cleansing removes all those added benefits so its not just our damage thats effected its our survivability thats affected too.
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I posted a topic like this in the PTS forums and it got promptly shut down. Hopefully they paid attenton to it though at least.

 

That sucks, I don't know why anybody would shut it down, everybody here has posted legitimate concerns about the spec. I personally feel having some anti-cleanse mechanic and taking the cooldown off rupture is far from unreasonable, I dare say those changes are pretty mandatory for Annihilation to be viable.

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We all hoped I think the changes to annihilator and juyo (extra stack of both) would even things up, but the crit nerf that mostly hit melee mean our bleeds (that still retain a specced +24% (+3% compared to 1,7, from the extra juyo stack)) got relatively the same split of damage 40%.

 

Annihilate now counts for a bit more sure, but mostly its vicious slash that is barely used anymore, its % of total damage having gone to the new twin saber throw (which is free and hits very well) and annihilate. (which alternatively means a near 100% uptime on rupture, since you do more annihilate in a same time frame, so better proc % on getting off cd)

Edited by verfallen
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  • 4 weeks later...
I am bumping this because this is something that needs to be addressed. My ideas are, If your deadly saber dots are cleansed reset the cd of deadly saber or, If any dots are cleansed then reset the cd of annihilate so we can attempt to get another rupture and so we can replace the dot damage lost with physical hard damage.
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Really our bleeds are constantly going out. There is no way to cleanse them all without seriously taxing a healer. We put up bleeds faster than a healer's cleanse can cooldown anyway. I've not had any problem against cleansers.
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Really our bleeds are constantly going out. There is no way to cleanse them all without seriously taxing a healer. We put up bleeds faster than a healer's cleanse can cooldown anyway. I've not had any problem against cleansers.

 

 

EVERY THREAD, EVERY TIME

 

There is some hero that posts "I'm soo awesome, I don't have the issue you are posting about. I"m great, what's wrong with you. Look at me me me!"

 

Tired of these jerks.

 

On topic: Dots that have a cooldown should have cleanse protection, and dots that can be reapplied at will shouldn't. Annihilation loses all of it's rage generation when dots are cleanse, and is really hurt when that happens.

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