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Did I witness cheating or are Commandos in PvP this strong?


Slafer

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Was in a wz the other night and we were 5 to 1 fighting a comando for a base capture he was staying alive well enough while doing his share of damage, is that class just that good for people who are vet players or is it more likely he had some kind of mod enhancement . This was unranked I'm not familiar with pubs really I'm a imp player but I still found it strange a player could survive as long as he did and do that much damage against 5 people, any information would be appreciated Edited by Slafer
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Was in a wz the other night and we were 5 to 1 fighting a comando for a base capture he was staying alive well enough while doing his share of damage, is that class just that good for people who are vet players or is it more likely he had some kind of mod enhancement . This was unranked I'm not familiar with pubs really I'm a imp player but I still found it strange a player could survive as long as he did and do that much damage against 5 people, any information would be appreciated

 

They're that strong. 3 lives crap. tons of healing as DPS. Anti-focus, Heavy Armor, I-Win button [ You get e-neted, say hello to his little friends!]. Many people will say it's a L2P issue, but you'd be a fool to believe it. L2P = Please don't take my advantage away. :eek: Snipers too.

 

It's all about the ranged face tanking this meta. :jawa_frown: Enjoy.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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It is very unlikely you encountered cheating.

 

Mercs and Commandos are currently very strong due to anti-focus or self-healing DCDs, off heals, and a good ability to kite. A good Merc or Commando can absolutely delay for a long time at a node.

 

Having said that, if you had him or her outnumbered 5 to 1 there was more going on than just Mercs having strong DCDs. That is more than enough to melt any Merc or Commando, to the point of overkill, if people know how to counter the spec and are doing the right thing. While Merc's strong DCDs (that do need to be nerfed honestly, though paired with damage being buffed back to pre-nerf levels) make it one of the best dueling specs in the game, it isn't so OP that any two players regardless of spec can't burst it down. Even two DPS Sorcs are enough to deal with one Merc, assuming equal skill and knowing how to counter. If a Merc is at a numbers disadvantage and succeeds, the issue was a skill imbalance, not the strength of his or her DCDs.

 

From the sound of it your group was not countering correctly. People were probably dealing direct damage when bubbles were up and healing to full. In general with Mercs and Commandos you want to save CC for when they pop bubbles. Blue is Energy Shield for Mercs and orange Responsive Safeguards. Energy Shield has a damage mitigation (25%) and lasts 12 seconds, Responsive Safeguards is orange and lasts 6 seconds. Responsive Safeguards absorbs 100% of all direct single target damage and reflects 50% of it back on the attacker as well as healing for 5% of maximum health each time a direct attack is absorbed. In addition players can take utilities that beef up Energy Shield (including giving it a self-heal that when the shield expires, heals based on the amount of direct damage received while it was active), and of course most players do. The colors are reversed with Commandos who have orange for their version of Energy Shield and blue for their version of Responsive Safeguards.

 

Bubble up? CC, AOE (if not mezzed), LoS or target swap if you have to. Just don't do direct single target damage *unless* they are low health, have Energy Shield up, and you are certain they can be burst down before it expires.

 

A Merc is one of the main DPS specs I play and I've been in situations like you describe, and nothing makes me happier than to tie up 3, or 4, or 5 people at an opposing team's side node while my team caps mid. It's entirely dependent however on one or more players not knowing how to play against Mercs and for example continue running through a full rotation when I have Responsive Safeguards up. If I run into a group that does know how to counter Mercs I quickly land in trouble, and am toast unless I can delay them with LoS or CC and retreat.

 

Merc DCDs are too strong at the moment but not a grant of invincibility. If a Merc seems invincible, and isn't guarded or being healed, it is 100% of the time due to people helping that Merc survive focus by healing him or her to full, and probably more than once.

 

Also in general you never want to go 5 versus 1 at a node. Even if you global the person you're piling on you might as well roll out a welcome mat on the node(s) you control. After all if you heavily outnumber the opponents at one node it should mean your team is (or will be) heavily outnumbered at the other.

Edited by Aeneas_Falco
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They're that strong. 3 lives crap. tons of healing as DPS. Anti-focus, Heavy Armor, I-Win button [ You get e-neted, say hello to his little friends!]. Many people will say it's a L2P issue, but you'd be a fool to believe it. L2P = Please don't take my advantage away. :eek: Snipers too.

 

It's all about the ranged face tanking this meta. :jawa_frown: Enjoy.

 

He's absolutely correct, the only ones playing these op classes are sub-par players that need that crutch that I win button! Pretty much any of the classes that have heals on dmg break trinity and thus everyone is playing them. This includes jugs as well, though not as bad as merc or sniper its still op for a DPS burst class. All of these classes are suppose to be glass cannons yet none of them are Which is plainly evident by most Premade's on rebel side half of squad equals four jugs other half 4 sorcs or 3 mercs etc etc!

 

Sniper is just ridiculous dam near 90% of the time immune from stun excellent damage reduction there needs to be a cost for all these uber abilities either reduced dmg or no stuns are a few that have been tossed about. Highly unlikely Bioware even cares they know the game is hemorrhaging its player base they have even gone so far as to start adding solo content which is huge because now it's basically given up trying to be a MMO.

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He's absolutely correct, the only ones playing these op classes are sub-par players that need that crutch that I win button!

 

They're the only people playing mercs? Really? There were no mercs at all prior to 5.0? :rolleyes:

 

There are plenty of people who have been playing mercs for years. They also tend to be the ones that cause opposing players headaches, not the FOTM rerollers that everyone loves to rail against. The FOTM rerollers are usually the players that are most easily dealt with.

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They're the only people playing mercs? Really? There were no mercs at all prior to 5.0? :rolleyes:

 

There are plenty of people who have been playing mercs for years. They also tend to be the ones that cause opposing players headaches, not the FOTM rerollers that everyone loves to rail against. The FOTM rerollers are usually the players that are most easily dealt with.

 

I second this sentiment. There are mercs that are very good at what they do and these are the annoying ones. For every one merc capable of a protracted 5 on 1 there are a out 10 that don't know what their basic attack is.

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He's absolutely correct, the only ones playing these op classes are sub-par players that need that crutch that I win button! Pretty much any of the classes that have heals on dmg break trinity and thus everyone is playing them. This includes jugs as well, though not as bad as merc or sniper its still op for a DPS burst class. All of these classes are suppose to be glass cannons yet none of them are Which is plainly evident by most Premade's on rebel side half of squad equals four jugs other half 4 sorcs or 3 mercs etc etc!

 

Sniper is just ridiculous dam near 90% of the time immune from stun excellent damage reduction there needs to be a cost for all these uber abilities either reduced dmg or no stuns are a few that have been tossed about. Highly unlikely Bioware even cares they know the game is hemorrhaging its player base they have even gone so far as to start adding solo content which is huge because now it's basically given up trying to be a MMO.

 

The problem becomes amplified when you actually have good veteran players on these classes who don’t actually need a crutch. A lot of those guys aren’t playing the class to be FOTM, they are people who’ve always mained the class and know them inside out. These guys are even harder to kill because of skill and they become de facto pvp gods because of it.

You are right about the rest. Most are garbage and need a crutch.

Edited by Totemdancer
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The problem becomes amplified when you actually have good veteran players on these classes who don’t actually need a crutch. A lot of those guys aren’t playing the class to be FOTM, they are people who’ve always mained the class and know them inside out. These guys are even harder to kill because of skill and they become de facto pvp gods because of it.

You are right about the rest. Most are garbage and need a crutch.

 

So true, though I would disagree with calling it skill. I mean if you have two equally skilled drivers ones in an every day car going up against a modified stock car there's no real skill here its just plain straight up out matched. I would go as far as to say that with every class of that type joining unbalances the match by degrees got enough and its a wash from the start. YET the DEV's still refuse to address this!

Edited by Kazz_Devlin
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So true, though I would disagree with calling it skill. I mean if you have two equally skilled drivers ones in an every day car going up against a modified stock car there's no real skill here its just plain straight up out matched. I would go as far as to say that with every class of that type joining unbalances the match by degrees got enough and its a wash from the start. YET the DEV's still refuse to address this!

 

Yes, but it you put a stock car with a crap driver vs a normal car with great driver, there is a good possibility the normal car wins if it’s a technical course.

But put 2 good drives against each other and one is in either car, then yes, totally out matched before you start.

Edited by Totemdancer
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I think we all disagree that the main problem here is not the people who are good with mercs because they used to be good with mercs, but the people who made mercs "modified cars" so much that compared to them nearly anything else is "stock". [Hint: These people are the devs, who are even yet to acknowledge the problem in an eternity and a half now...]
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They have extremely strong defensive cooldowns. What makes them really strong in PVP is not only do they have strong DCDs they also have a decent throughput of DPS while being attacked and their DCDs are up.

 

I suggest reading up on their DCDs so if you face them you know how and why they are lasting so long in PVP.

 

Basically they have shields that can absorb incoming damage, they got shields that can reflect damage back as well as heal them as you attack them, they have occasional immunity to interrupts so there's a lot to manage when you fight them.

 

If you don't want to read up on them, just make a merc or commando and by playing one you will learn their abilities quite well.

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He's absolutely correct, the only ones playing these op classes are sub-par players that need that crutch that I win button!

 

This is hyperbole. Great players can and do still play mercs, the class is simply no longer an easy kill like they were in 4.0 and prior.

 

It's true the class is strong but there are other equally strong classes that are on the same level as merc DPS right now.

 

When a bad player plays a merc, they don't automatically become unstoppable awesome PVPers, they become clueless bad mercs that are easy to kill and that do bad damage just as bad players do on any class.

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Mercs in 5.x are all three types in one: Super DPS, Healer, and Tank. So when you run around with simply 1 of those 3, you are at a disadvantage. Plus mercs have a bag of tricks too.

 

You probably fell into the trap of actually PvPing against a Merc. I'm guessing you guys got him low, and didn't notice the reflect, then he was at full and you all were hurt and he just picked you off like harmless stuffed animals. All the while using his tanking and self heals to stay up.

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Mercs in 5.x are all three types in one: Super DPS, Healer, and Tank. So when you run around with simply 1 of those 3, you are at a disadvantage. Plus mercs have a bag of tricks too.

 

You probably fell into the trap of actually PvPing against a Merc. I'm guessing you guys got him low, and didn't notice the reflect, then he was at full and you all were hurt and he just picked you off like harmless stuffed animals. All the while using his tanking and self heals to stay up.

 

If you 1v1 a good merc, you can get him low to near death.. Assuming he is out mot of his another life abilities, he can still use his hard stun on you.. and rapid scan heal up while you are mezzed. And there you have it.. the merc is up to 50% more hp than you again and if he is lucky.. he will have some more healing available to use by then.

 

I dueled a lot vs mercs on my mara.. with friends who are very good and believe me, the merc is always at an advantage.

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…..the only ones playing these op classes are sub-par players that need that crutch that I win button!

 

Oh really?

 

I played melee and hybrid melee classes for the first 5+ years of this game in a PvP guild that was (past tense) arguably the best on BC during 8v8 Ranked. On my Marauder, Operative, and Guardian, I consider myself to be an above average player. Certainly not the best, but definitely not average or sub-par. On my PT, before I shelved him, I was probably one of the best you'd have the misfortune of coming across in WZs.

 

Needless to say, I paid my dues and shelved my PT after 5.9 when Bioware once again ignored the survivability issues with PTs having zero anti-focus DCDs. So I jumped on the FotM bandwagon and created a Merc. I did that because I was sick of playing melee classes for 5+ years, and I was even more sick of my favorite class (PT) being so utterly neglected for the better part of two years. I also wanted to experience ranged DPS, and as Mercenary is so closely related to PT, it was the obvious choice. It's not surprising after playing melee DPS all those years that I absolutely loved playing ranged DPS. Regardless, I don't need an "iwin" button to beat most players in a WZ, and I certainly am not a sub-par player who needs the crutch.

 

As far as my Merc goes, I'd say that I'm competent on him after playing him for about 4 months or so. Not awesome, but not terrible either. Despite how admittedly over-tuned their DCDs are, they are not PvP gods who block Death Star blasts with their chest hair and fart Force Lightning that some players make them out to be. And unless you're facing a premade of 4 Mercs that can rotate Enet on someone until they're dead (though the same could be said of any premade consisting of the same DPS classes, such as a premade of Operatives), they are not impossible to beat. As someone else already pointed out, even against a really good Merc, if five players are having issues killing one Merc, the problem is no longer the Merc.

Edited by Mournblood
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I second this sentiment. There are mercs that are very good at what they do and these are the annoying ones. For every one merc capable of a protracted 5 on 1 there are a out 10 that don't know what their basic attack is.

 

There are good players and bad players that run the gambit of every class and spec is the game. Even someone who is a merc who doesn't have alot of experience, or is new to pvp , and others reasons, can be globalled.

 

You don't judge classes on the worst performers tho, because they gave no indication of the specs optimized astrentgths, and often trivialize or make the players weaknesses seem a part of what they are playing rather than a weakness of the player themself.

 

I would say that there are some classes with muliple lives and I'm not pointing any fingers here ;) that will prop up players whom on a different class would fair worse by the lack of extremely strong DCDs and health pools that will always favor them in a battle of attrition.

 

There are many Mercs that I know first hand who mercs long before they become Immortal, and I behoove none of them for continuing to play the class now that it's been touched by the hands of divinity. They aren't FOTMers, they aren't bads using it to prop themselves up, and they were still there and playing them while they were still all kinds of suck. All 4 of them :rolleyes:

 

They don't bother me in the slightest [the 4 of them], they paid their dues, but at this point they're being overcompensated for their troubles heh. I played Carnage during 4.0 when it was strong as hell, and I stayed Carnage now that it's been eviscerated and it's barely the same spec anymore and it has DPS ceilings that even Sorcs don't envy.

 

You play a spec in the bad times, that ya don't have to feel so bad when it gets propped up again in the future.

 

But yeah, Mercs and Snipers are a plague of near mythical per portions and I hope a flood washes them all away come 6.0. And Skank tanks too :D And pubs, and pub healers who only heal their fellows stinken pubs, Fury could use a smack in the face or two as well while there at it [Thanks for stealing my friggen Ravage dot!!! and my Quasi-Burst spec status that we had for 5 and half years while still having better burst than me you Aszho;....] Ahem, sorry.

 

But yeah,get rid of mercs and snipers. And if you are going to leave plasma probe at 50% still, you might as well just raise it back to 70, same crap. Mercs will be able to fly come 6.0. I'm calling it now.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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@Grim did i miss something while i was gone? Is only healing the players on your team that are your faction a thing now?

 

If so that abysmally short sited and stupid, and I'm one of the people who got screwed by the cross-faction/matchmaking/BS rating system.

 

On topic: yeah thats what i was saying: are mercs overly good right now? Yes, but for every incredible merc there are 15 terribad ones too. Its odd because (engi and marksman) snipers and (fury) maras are also in good spots right now and I can't say I'd say the same thing about them.

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From my experience playing, the only classes that can put pressure on the Merc is the Marauder and Sniper. By pressure, I mean force them to use their life savers. After that, pretty much anybody can take them, and its down to skill at that point.

 

Any spec can put pressure on them and force them to cycle through all their DCDs if played well. Operatives are also still better in a 1 vs 1 situation, at least assuming equal skill. Of course skill is not always equal and not every player is able to get the most of Operative, just as there are many Mercs who don't get the most of their spec.

 

To be clear I'm not saying Merc DCDs don't need to be nerfed. They do (though paired with damage being raised back to pre-nerf levels). But neither Arsenal or I/O is invincible and and can be killed by any DPS or tank spec in the game if played well. Of course it's easier on some specs than others.

 

@Grim did i miss something while i was gone? Is only healing the players on your team that are your faction a thing now?

 

If so that abysmally short sited and stupid, and I'm one of the people who got screwed by the cross-faction/matchmaking/BS rating system.

 

On topic: yeah thats what i was saying: are mercs overly good right now? Yes, but for every incredible merc there are 15 terribad ones too. Its odd because (engi and marksman) snipers and (fury) maras are also in good spots right now and I can't say I'd say the same thing about them.

 

A healer is one of my main PVP toons and that isn't something I either do or have considered. I can't say I've really noticed it on my DPS toons either. I'll have to try and pay closer attention to who is getting the heals when I'm not from now on. ;)

 

I do know there are healers who only seem to heal the people they've grouped with, or tanks that throw guard on their premade buddy ( the latter are usually healer-tank pairs) and never swap even when they should, but that has always been a thing.

 

You're also right about Mercs. For every Merc that is an absolute headache for opposing players there are at least 10 mediocre or bad ones who are easily dealt with if you know how Merc DCDs work.

Edited by Aeneas_Falco
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From my experience playing, the only classes that can put pressure on the Merc is the Marauder and Sniper. By pressure, I mean force them to use their life savers. After that, pretty much anybody can take them, and its down to skill at that point.

 

I’ve pressured plenty on Mercs on my rage Jugg and even my Shadow.

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To be clear I'm not saying Merc DCDs don't need to be nerfed. They do (though paired with damage being raised back to pre-nerf levels). But neither Arsenal or I/O is invincible and and can be killed by any DPS or tank spec in the game if played well. Of course it's easier on some specs than others.

 

The reason I haven't voiced my support for Merc nerfs isn't because I have one now, it's because that's essentially what happened to PTs, when they were cast down into the bottom of a deep, dark hole where they've remained for nearly two years since. And frankly, playing one has made me more effective against them when I'm on either my Mara, Operative, or Guardian. Personal bias aside, I don't see them as the huge problem other players do, and I'd rather not see them suffer the same ignoble fate that befell PTs.

 

If we take a step back from this discussion to put this in perspective, I would point out that there are much bigger problems confronting PvP in this game currently than Merc class balance concerns. It's not going to matter whether you think Mercs need to be nerfed if no one is playing PvP anymore in this game.

Edited by Mournblood
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Healers are currently quite strong, and they stack well, since there is no DR on x-healing.

 

Chances are if you've got a Mercenary giving you the runaround against 5 team-mates, there's another healer somewhere close, keeping them topped up as well.

 

So many WZ I see a huge melee around a door or node, while support healers freecast from the sidelines.

 

You should be able to 5v1 mercenary though. that says more about your team than the merc.

 

....And I'm not defending mercenary/mando - I hate them with a passion, even though I used to play mando heals some years ago. - When they were puny and quite squishy.

 

-----------

 

Remember too, that there are pretty icons showing what they're casting, their buffs and de-buffs, CDs, Damage types, defences and DoTs /HoTs. Apparently there are only 25-30 of them in a protracted fight that you have to read, interpret and counter in the right order and with the right attack. Just as you focus on one, it dances away someplace else in the stack. You're also supposed to spot their animations in the melee too, like spotting the ball in a rugby scrum. / sarcasm.

Edited by Storm-Cutter
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It is silly sometimes when you get like 4-5 Mercs/Mandos in a ranked match. Mainly if you play as sentinel. The basic strategy is to net me right at start, you cant move, cant leap, cant do anything, you are a sitting duck. Yes, you can use breaker but then you will be stunlocked and killed.

 

You can only activate defensives, after the net expires they use another net, you are slowed from Blazing bolts also. Basically you just sit there, not doing any damage and using up all defensives. Then you die. Thats ranked when against mercs.....

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