Assassin tanks should be allowed to keep Force Speed with 60% DR. I understand nerfing it for the DPS since their cooldowns were stronger than some other classes. But it's currently one of the most important cooldowns for an Assassin tank, and I don't think it's currently causing any major imbalance, especially since Assassins have much lower passive defense. (if anything, Force Shroud is the most OP ability that Assassin tanks have)

Hi, here is my personal recipe for pancakes:

- 1 cup all-purpose flour

- 2 tablespoons white sugar

- 2 teaspoons baking power

- 1 teaspoon salt

- 1 egg, beated

- 1 cup milk

- 2 tablespoons vegetable oil

I have asked this question numerous times. What i heard is that the set bonus is actually broken and needs to be fixed. I opened a thread on it and have recieved literally no feedback. Maybe one day we will get an update

Tbh, I just went with DPS set bonus in the end, at least I could pull some dmg if nothing else, while guarding players (PVP) with Wither Tactical.

Also, I fail to see why Deception now has 16% DR in 276 gear? When did that got nerfed?

Not to mention Phantasm nerf from 60% absorb dmg to 25% DR...

It just doesnt make any sense.

Assassin tanks should be allowed to keep Force Speed with 60% DR. I understand nerfing it for the DPS since their cooldowns were stronger than some other classes. But it's currently one of the most important cooldowns for an Assassin tank, and I don't think it's currently causing any major imbalance, especially since Assassins have much lower passive defense. (if anything, Force Shroud is the most OP ability that Assassin tanks have)

Except Assassin tanks don't have the lowest passive defense. In BiS gear, a Sin will have 33.5% DR from Armor, while a Juggernaut and PT will have ~40.03. All three tank specs have passive E/K DR, bringing their totals with armor to 41.5% Sin v 46.03% Jugg v 49.03% PT; a maximum of ~7.53% difference. A Sin has the highest I/E DR (14% Sin v 11% Jugg v 9% PT), especially when factoring in their 4% rotational DR, putting them at least 7% ahead. Sin has the highest Defense chance, 16% v 8% v 9%, even when factoring in the 5% Juggs get rotationally bringing them to 13%. Sins have the highest passive resistance, 2% vs 0% for the other two, although they do lose out 3% when factoring in rotation, as Juggs get a 5% boost. Overall, the tanks are largely balanced when factoring in passive and rotational DR, with Sins slightly edging out the rest in many circumstances (especially considering that they have a slightly increased health pool due to an endurance-boosting passive).

In terms of active defenses, sins also win out even with the Force Speed nerf. In total, they have an average DR boost of 3.125%, equal to PTs and higher than Juggs (2.2%). Although we should note that juggs have an average F/T absorb of 2.5%. They (barely) have the lowest average defense boost, at 5% vs 5.81% for Juggs and 6.775% for PTs (when factoring in Oil Slick). In terms of resistance, Juggs have Mad Dash (~1.5s every 45s) giving an average of 0.033%, PTs merely have a 35% resistance increase granting an average of 4.375% (merely, as it is RNG, while Juggs and Sins have guaranteed cheese), while Sins have Force Shroud, and a Force Shroud on Force Cloak bringing them to an average increase of 50% under optimal conditions. Their stealth also acts as a cheese even when Shroud won't. In terms of self-heals, sins are firmly average (expected ~1.875% hps), with Juggs having exceptional heals from ED, and PTs having virtually none (~1.1% hps if Kolto activates on CD and heals for max possible, and close and personal triggers on CD). Sins can also reset a medpac. Again, largely balanced, although we note that the differences between the classes shows a bit more here (Juggs out-perfoming with HPS, Sins with lots of damage avoidance, and PTs with..... something?). However, if you were to factor in a 60% Absorb (average of 10%) then this would quickly become far more unbalanced.

Finally, what the above analysis misses is not just the average potential, but the actual potential. With the 60% FS absorb, Sins could have a powerful defensive up for nearly every large attack from a boss, which no other tank could do, while still being otherwise equal in terms of passive mitigation, and having the highest capacity for completely avoiding damage.

Except Assassin tanks don't have the lowest passive defense. In BiS gear, a Sin will have 33.5% DR from Armor, while a Juggernaut and PT will have ~40.03. All three tank specs have passive E/K DR, bringing their totals with armor to 41.5% Sin v 46.03% Jugg v 49.03% PT; a maximum of ~7.53%. A Sin has the highest I/E DR (14% Sin v 11% Jugg v 9% PT), especially when factoring in their 4% rotational DR, putting them at least 7% ahead. Sin has the highest Defense chance, 16% v 8% v 9%, even when factoring in the 5% Juggs get rotationally bringing them to 13%. Sins have the highest passive resistance, 2% vs 0% for the other two, although they do lose out 3% when factoring in rotation, as Juggs get a 5% boost. Overall, the tanks are largely balanced when factoring in passive and rotational DR, with Sins slightly edging out the rest in many circumstances (especially considering that they have a slightly increased health pool due to an endurance-boosting passive).

 

In terms of active defenses, sins also win out even with the Force Speed nerf. In total, they have an average DR boost of 3.125%, equal to PTs and higher than Juggs (2.2%). Although we should note that juggs have an average F/T absorb of 2.5%. They (barely) have the lowest average defense boost, at 5% vs 5.81% for Juggs and 6.775% for PTs (when factoring in Oil Slick). In terms of resistance, Juggs have Mad Dash (~1.5s every 45s) giving an average of 0.033%, PTs merely have a 35% resistance increase granting an average of 4.375% (merely, as it is RNG, while Juggs and Sins have guaranteed cheese), while Sins have Force Shroud, and a Force Shroud on Force Cloak bringing them to an average increase of 50% under optimal conditions. Their stealth also acts as a cheese even when Shroud won't. In terms of self-heals, sins are firmly average (expected ~1.875% hps), with Juggs having exceptional heals from ED, and PTs having virtually none (~1.1% hps if Kolto activates on CD and heals for max possible, and close and personal triggers on CD). Sins can also reset a medpac. Again, largely balanced, although we note that the differences between the classes shows a bit more here (Juggs out-perfoming with HPS, Sins with lots of damage avoidance, and PTs with..... something?). However, if you were to factor in a 60% Absorb (average of 10%) then this would quickly become far more unbalanced.

 

Finally, what the above analysis misses is not just the average potential, but the actual potential. With the 60% FS absorb, Sins could have a powerful defensive up for nearly every large attack from a boss, which no other tank could do, while still being otherwise equal in terms of passive mitigation, and having the highest capacity for completely avoiding damage.

Thank you for this post. Hopefully at least some people can understand what is said here. By the way, you didn't mention Shield Chance and I believe that sins have the highest passive Shield Chance through their rotation, as well. I believe that Absorb on average is a bit worse than PT's but also better than jugg's. Damage Reduction is pretty much their only "weakness"...

Complete removal of this DCD might be a little bit too harsh, but then, leaving it as at least somewhat decent DCD would still keep it at a way too strong of a level.

Sins were the best tanks for most fights even before this utility was added. People seem to forget that or they just haven't been playing back then because it has truly been way too long since this utility has been added and never changed.

I myself am really tired of seeing 2 sin tanks in almost every HM/Nim operation. Occasional jugg that appears is usually just the guy who respecs to DPS on every possible occasion. Only drastic changes like this one could change this situation, and I welcome them.

You will still see at least one sin tank in almost every ops. May be it won't be a main tank anymore, but Force Shroud is still a thing and you just have to have a sin tank for many mechanics.

I myself am really tired of seeing 2 sin tanks in almost every HM/Nim operation. Occasional jugg that appears is usually just the guy who respecs to DPS on every possible occasion. Only drastic changes like this one could change this situation, and I welcome them.

Yeah, drastic changes like giving the other tanks similar abilities to allow them to deal with spikes. Nah, too much work. Just delete the offender. Instead we get... Power Yield.

Lol.

By the way, you didn't mention Shield Chance and I believe that sins have the highest passive Shield Chance through their rotation, as well. I believe that Absorb on average is a bit worse than PT's but also better than jugg's.

Yeah, I wasn't in-game/on the PTS so I couldn't grab all the shield/absorb numbers, and didn't have them written down anywhere. I also couldn't note all of the set boni and tacticals. I think you are largely correct that a Sin who keeps Dark Ward up should have the highest shield chance, with a fairly good absorb, though lower than a PTs most the time. They do have a bit of Absorb on demand from Recklessness if needed in a pinch, though.

I’ll preface this by saying I’m an entirely PVE sin tank, all nim ops prior to 3.0 and since returning in 5.10 aside from nim gods, so what I’m talking about will be from that point of view. I have tested the entirety of sm dxun, Hm Red (first dxun boss) and a number of master mode flashpoints

Sin tanks have been the go to tank for PVE for a long time with PT and jugg being roughly equal, PT maybe slightly ahead

The latest changes from the 3.0 patch drastically nerfed darkness assassins compared to how they were in phase 2 and even a little weaker than they are on live with the changes to the tank set bonus (spike with 10% dr instead of 20%) the best all round utility tactical ( 2% dr for each target hit with whither changed to 2% absorb per target) and the removal of 60% damage absorbed on force speed utility.

With the buffs to PT’s in the form of set bonuses, tactical and power yield they will likely be the go to tank unless there are mechanics that require shroud or reflect, ie a tank cheese to a degree.

What I’d like to see happen with 6.0 going live to bring sins up a bit is a reverse of one of the changes/nerfs mentioned above or preferably a middle ground on 2 of the 3, for example the tactical granting shield and absorb, the spike dr set bonus being 20% with a longer Cooldown (30 seconds?) attached to the set itself or tanks getting the 25% absorbed damage on force speed utility as deception or hatred has.

I also believe the immortal juggernauts need a significant buff in the form of a set bonus or a tactical to keep them truly competitive, but as I don’t really play jugg tank aside from when sins/pt is locked I don’t know what to suggest.

The latest changes from the 3.0 patch drastically nerfed darkness assassins compared to how they were in phase 2 and even a little weaker than they are on live with the changes to the tank set bonus (spike with 10% dr instead of 20%) the best all round utility tactical ( 2% dr for each target hit with whither changed to 2% absorb per target) and the removal of 60% damage absorbed on force speed utility.

They changed the new stuff too? So basically they collected feedback in phase 2 where force speed still was there and people said sin tank is too powerful in comparison (which it was), so they changed the new items so be almost useless and then took away force speed. Seems well thought out.

Please just give us a far weaker version of force speed back and give something similar to the other tanks. You should be able to do something about incoming damage and not just standing there and hoping your shield absorb does the work for you. I don't think playing as a lucky lazy tank will be fun.

They changed the new stuff too? So basically they collected feedback in phase 2 where force speed still was there and people said sin tank is too powerful in comparison (which it was), so they changed the new items so be almost useless and then took away force speed. Seems well thought out.

 

Please just give us a far weaker version of force speed back and give something similar to the other tanks. You should be able to do something about incoming damage and not just standing there and hoping your shield absorb does the work for you. I don't think playing as a lucky lazy tank will be fun.

They did, force speed was reduced to zero last I heard