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pug tanking trends


Powerinfusion's Avatar


Powerinfusion
05.13.2015 , 08:38 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
So really... I think I'm done with this whole topic.
A-yup. The bottom line is you think it's wrong to guard healers and I think it's wrong to guard dps. One more post from me and I'm done.

Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
Thrasher NiM you can't pull the mobs down or leap to them, so the tank that starts the fight gets punted up. You need the AOE taunt to make sure your healers/DPS aren't getting raped that are also up there.
Granted, this is true on HM as well, I did forget about the intentional punt. However, our second tank taunted after the first tank's aoe taunt, and then took the punt and still had his aoe taunt available when he went up there.

Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
Draxxus it didn't matter. Nim Draxus you DO NOT want to AOE taunt those adds. Period. Those Subteroths would destroy a tank of more than 3 blew up on him.
Not if you have a Guard/Jugg (saber reflect)... we positioned a slinger in a spot where I could immediately leap to him just before SR wore off.

Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
Bestia, Nim there where 3 monsters and they got a taunt immunity if they where to close together. One tank tanked two mosters at a time and the other tank tanked 1, also the kill target. if you blew your AOE taunt you would be raped since no one could get the 3rd monster off you and they hit like mack trucks on a 90 degree downgrade with no brakes (in short very very hard).
Did not experience this encounter.

Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
As a final note.... healers already generate 50% less threat than everyone else due to passives.
10%. Check it. I knew 50% was wrong but not *that* wrong. So guard gives healers 35% aggro reduction rather than 10%. A "slight" difference that on a fight like Bulo, or any involving adds running around that need to be off your healers, can be a huge difference-maker.

My last word: I'm still nowhere near convinced, save NiM Bestia as you stated. My advice to anyone else reading is to guard the healers, unless you aren't confident in your ability to hold aggro on the initial pull. However, if you run a single-aoe-single taunt rotation within the first 20 seconds of the pull you will *NEVER* lose aggro if you are following your proper priorities - including mixing in single taunts if they won't be needed elsewhere.

But, believe who you want. This is my last post in this thread.

EDIT. I really am trying to learn from this above and beyond all else, but even given everything my stance has not changed on who to guard.
Quote: Originally Posted by Daivee View Post
Healing produce only 50% threat by default. So if you heal for 10k you generate 5k threat. Passives in healing discipline reduce the threat generated by heals even further. I don't remember the amount of threat reduce from the passive. But I asume you looked the 10% up so I will use that number. Once it was 15% but it was tuned down during a patch (2.x or 3.0).
Just tested, threat produced by heals is 45% of effective healing, i.e. the 10% is multiplicative 0.5x0.9=0.45. *I was wrong.* It sure as he** is frustrating when there are mechanics within the game that aren't described anywhere in tooltips or descriptions. I guess you just have to do your own testing or be "in the know".

Quote: Originally Posted by Narudan View Post
As an example: The tank has 100% threat and stands in melee range. A sniper has 120% threat but is standing 10m away - he does not pull aggro. As soon as this sniper steps into melee range, he will pull aggro off the tank
All right then, I understand but it's just weird the way this is phrased. If a ranged needs 30% more threat than the tank, that would mean the tank only has to generate 1/1.3=77% accumulated threat of that ranged to maintain aggro. As to melee, to pull they would need 10% more threat, which means the tank has to generate 1/1.1=91% accumulated threat vs. that melee - so obviously, *if* a dps is to be guarded it should *always* be a melee. I get it.

Daivee's Avatar


Daivee
05.13.2015 , 09:38 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Powerinfusion View Post
...
10%. Check it. I knew 50% was wrong but not *that* wrong. So guard gives healers 35% aggro reduction rather than 10%. A "slight" difference that on a fight like Bulo, or any involving adds running around that need to be off your healers, can be a huge difference-maker...
Healing produce only 50% threat by default. So if you heal for 10k you generate 5k threat. Passives in healing discipline reduce the threat generated by heals even further. I don't remember the amount of threat reduce from the passive. But I asume you looked the 10% up so I will use that number. Once it was 15% but it was tuned down during a patch (2.x or 3.0).

If a healer has a HPS of 5k he generates 2,5k*0.9 TPS (50% by default; further reduction due to passives) = 2,25k TPS.

The threat generated by healing is distributed among all mobs present at the moment of threat generation.

If we take our 2,25k TPS from healing into a one mob fight then the healer will generate 2,25k TPS on this single mob. If we have 5 adds spawning (so 6 mobs out at this time) the generated threat will be distributed equally among all the mobs. The healer will generate 2,25k/6 TPS = 375 TPS per mob.

Narudan's Avatar


Narudan
05.13.2015 , 10:55 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Powerinfusion View Post
"Melee and ranged generate the same threat equally but it takes more threat for ranged to pull aggro." Zero sense. None. Nada. Zilch. Threat is threat is threat. The mob has no idea who the "tank" is and who everyone else is. What, do you think the boss looks at your soresu form and says "oh - that must be the tank - but since that other ranged dps back there is only 29% higher in accumulated threat than my self-appointed tank, I won't bother with him." ???
As an example: The tank has 100% threat and stands in melee range. A sniper has 120% threat but is standing 10m away - he does not pull aggro. As soon as this sniper steps into melee range, he will pull aggro off the tank

XisscVekno's Avatar


XisscVekno
05.14.2015 , 07:48 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Powerinfusion View Post
Just tested, threat produced by heals is 45% of effective healing, i.e. the 10% is multiplicative 0.5x0.9=0.45. *I was wrong.* It sure as he** is frustrating when there are mechanics within the game that aren't described anywhere in tooltips or descriptions. I guess you just have to do your own testing or be "in the know".
Well it doesn't help that BW deleted a lot of tank information that covered this. The Role section of the class forums used to consist of over 100 pages of information.... now it has like 3-5. So yeah. LOTS of information was lost.
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Daivee's Avatar


Daivee
05.14.2015 , 08:00 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
Well it doesn't help that BW deleted a lot of tank information that covered this. The Role section of the class forums used to consist of over 100 pages of information.... now it has like 3-5. So yeah. LOTS of information was lost.
Yea. I think it would be really helpful to have a "guide to threat in SWtoR" here in the class section. Any volunteers?

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
05.14.2015 , 08:07 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by XisscVekno View Post
Oh don't get me wrong, I've done some wacky crap on my Jugg to get through a boss fight. Even interceding the other tank just to boost his DR to help the healers out.

But I'm just saying from my personal experiences, my guard swaps are between the DPS. I only have about 1-2 maybe 3 fights that I guard the healers to try and reduce their threat to the over whelming amount of adds the boss may have. But I never value guard (outside of pvp) for the DR portion.
That is pretty wacky, most of the new Ops you could not pull that **** off in (Especially Sword Squadron) They really should make Guard have a 30m Range in PvE only, the main thing is that you take 50% of the damage of your guarded target, IF you are within range, but most of the time, unless it's a Melee DPS, or a fight in a small arena (E.g Commanders, Malaphar, Torque, Blaster and Boss, etc.) you can't use guard to it's full potential for a Healer or DPS.

tacito's Avatar


tacito
05.14.2015 , 11:16 AM | #57
I honestly don't understand the hate for the damage reduction part of guard. Is it incredibly impactful? Well, certainly not. But it does exactly what it says on the box - decreases damage taken by 5%.

Yes, it's not additive damage reduction, hence doesn't decrease damage by MORE than the stated percentage (the powertech energy shield, for instance, increases damage reduction by 25% which resulted in about 40% less damage last time I did the math, not sure if still valid). But if a dps or healer takes 1000 damage from a periodic ability before guard is applied, they take 950 after. 5% reduction.

Again, it's not a huge factor, but it does exactly what it says. And while a 5% boost of ANYTHING is hardly noticeable, I don't see why tanks shouldn't make use of it on whoever is most prone to taking damage

akisgood's Avatar


akisgood
05.15.2015 , 03:04 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
That is pretty wacky, most of the new Ops you could not pull that **** off in (Especially Sword Squadron) They really should make Guard have a 30m Range in PvE only, the main thing is that you take 50% of the damage of your guarded target, IF you are within range, but most of the time, unless it's a Melee DPS, or a fight in a small arena (E.g Commanders, Malaphar, Torque, Blaster and Boss, etc.) you can't use guard to it's full potential for a Healer or DPS.
Just to be clear, intercepting 50% of the guarded target's damage taken only happens in PvP.

Quote: Originally Posted by tacito View Post
Again, it's not a huge factor, but it does exactly what it says. And while a 5% boost of ANYTHING is hardly noticeable, I don't see why tanks shouldn't make use of it on whoever is most prone to taking damage
Couldn't agree more. As a dps it really irks me when there isn't a guard out for the DR. For *some* tanks I'm pretty sure it's an ego thing...
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Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
05.18.2015 , 02:19 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by akisgood View Post
Just to be clear, intercepting 50% of the guarded target's damage taken only happens in PvP.
This. The part of guard in PvE is 25% less threat and 5% less damage. And those two effects don't have a range.
The 15m range only apply to the 50% redirection of damage caused by players to the guarded target.

Quote:
Couldn't agree more. As a dps it really irks me when there isn't a guard out for the DR. For *some* tanks I'm pretty sure it's an ego thing...
Yes and no. Most of the time I slap my guard on a dps and don't bother with it anymore. There are fights like ruugar or revan where it's used for DR.
But on the other hand, most of the time it doesn't make a difference who you guard, or if you guard at all. Not for threat and not for damage taken

HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
05.19.2015 , 06:54 AM | #60
Interesting discussion.

Come to think of it - I have a crazy idea about guarding in PVE.

How about if the tank - wait for it - actually guard swaps..? I know, I know, it's sounds like a hazzle and requires raid awareness and clicking...but just think about it. Maybe guard that bursty DPS that doesn't know he has a aggro drop at the start of the fight, and then maybe swap guards during the fight depending on the situation? Like ie. a healer / DPS is getting overwhelmed by adds on Sparky HM - you swap guards to that person (and intercede). I know - it sounds totally crazy, but maybe give it a shot?