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How hard is a new MM Op for a Pug?


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HiHi

 

Since new gear tier is tied mostly to a new Operation, and unless BW relent, it would appear to be only in MM - how easy or hard is it for a PuG group to clear a new operation - assuming current BiS gear and some competency at high-end PvE?

 

I was just curious, since I've never managed to clear a new operation with 4 guild-mates and 3 extras in the old days, even with Voice comms for us guildies.

 

When you could clear an old op by being stupidly over-leveled, then they weren't that challenging - it was more doing stuff in the right order at the right time, using your interrupts in rotation, and being mostly aware of the unfolding fight.

 

Any thoughts? Success chances? Failure rates? How good do you really have to be to clear MM ops? How long does it take to learn the mechanics?

 

TY to anyone who has a sensible reply. :)

Edited by Storm-Cutter
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My thoughts:

 

Considering you're asking this question, my guess is you have 0% chance of even being close to downing MM Tyth. I don't mean that to be mean, I just want to be honest. The only Pugs I can see downing some MM gods bosses are pugs composed of people that already cleared it with their respective team, and from what I heard from the PTS, it will be a minute before you can find any of those pugs around.

 

It's already close to impossible to pug VM Gods (except in high end PVE guilds), and MM is a lot harder. Don't expect to be clearing any bosses anytime soon unless you join a team that is very competent and actively working on it.

 

As for the last few questions. I guess success chance and failure rate was covered.

How good do you really have to be to clear MM ops? How long does it take to learn the mechanics? Depends how you define good. You must understand and master your class and role, have optimal APM (and rotation) at all times, know which cooldown to use when, move where when, adapt when stuff doesn't go as planned, predict damage incoming, know every mechanic, etc. Some people say it isn't too hard, but it is very overwhelming when you start, and it can take a while to get used to all that. Depends if you play with people that already know everything, then you can learn very fast because they can compensate for your errors. A new group progging can take weeks to learn a single boss, depending on how much you raid and how fast you learn.

Edited by Eloi_BG
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My guild was only small, so except for when some of the ops weren't scaled right, we could only manage HM flashpoints. - But my guild members are gone, and I no longer have the hours to spend learning a whole operation - especially if its with PuG groups. I'm a competent PvP-er so I know my class pretty well, and can also improvise when I can't just go through rotation after rotation.

 

So.... I think that MM ops is going to be a long way off for me. - Especially since I can't commit to a regular time and group very often to attempt Operations. It would appear to be several steps up from HM FPs and PvP.

 

TY SM for you insight.

 

Anyone else wanna chip in? Have any advice?

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The trick with most encounters in MM operations is the coordination and mechanics. This is (in my opinion) what trips a group up, no matter how well each player may know their individual class.

 

By way, of example, consider the first phase of the last fight in Explosive Conflict.

 

1. You get three droids with an interruptable channeled attack called Calibrating Shot.

2. Every cast that ISN'T interrupted increases their damage resistance by 10%.

3. At 10 stacks the droids are invulnerable and the entire encounter will fail.

4. The cast is much faster than the cooldown of player interrupts, so three people take turns, in sequence.

5. One of the three droids will only get two players, so this one needs the highest DPS to kill it before it gets too many stacks of Calibrating Shot.

 

I'm sure you can imagine how easy it is for something to go wrong. Doing this with a guild, in voice chat, is challenging enough. Now imagine a pug.

 

And this is just the first phase of a long and complicated encounter!

 

Each phase has mechanics that if done poorly, will result in a wipe for the group. All while moving around the arena, avoiding damage where possible, doing one's priority list / rotation, using defensive cooldowns at the appropriate times, healers knowing who's going to get hit hard soon (so they can be topped off), and who can be triaged for later.

 

In my experience, progressing through NM operations requires persistence on the part of the group, having multiple wipes while they figure out the coordination. When the first boss is figured out, they then work on the next boss. And so on. Depending on the group, the complexity of the mechanics in the operation, and how tight the enrage timers, this could take a VERY long time.

 

With a static group, you can build on previous successes and keep progressing forwards.

 

But when pugging, you have to restart from scratch every time.

Edited by Khevar
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You have no chance. Don't even waste your time.

 

Pugging NiM is like expecting your companion to do well against a raid boss and not just die in 4 seconds from standing in stupid and 2 other mechanics going on at the same time.

 

All you'll get for your troubles is a really big repair bill.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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0% for all Mastermodes if this is truly a Pug. (Forming a group out of 6-8 known mm raiders doesnt count as pug imo)

For Gods Operation it is even impossible to do the current Veteranmode with a Pug. Maybe after the huge nerfs coming in december for vet will do the job.

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0% for all Mastermodes if this is truly a Pug. (Forming a group out of 6-8 known mm raiders doesnt count as pug imo)

For Gods Operation it is even impossible to do the current Veteranmode with a Pug. Maybe after the huge nerfs coming in december for vet will do the job.

 

^ This. Most likely when gods HM is nerfed you’ll be able to go in there with pugs, but God’s nim esp in its current state may not even be right back fully tested by December let alone pug able till January in experienced group.

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My thoughts:

 

Considering you're asking this question, my guess is you have 0% chance of even being close to downing MM Tyth. I don't mean that to be mean, I just want to be honest. The only Pugs I can see downing some MM gods bosses are pugs composed of people that already cleared it with their respective team, and from what I heard from the PTS, it will be a minute before you can find any of those pugs around.

 

It's already close to impossible to pug VM Gods (except in high end PVE guilds), and MM is a lot harder. Don't expect to be clearing any bosses anytime soon unless you join a team that is very competent and actively working on it.

 

So, to be exact, this has become guild-only content.

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So, to be exact, this has become guild-only content.

 

Yes, master-mode has always been guild-only content (well guild-only meaning experienced group only, the "people in a group all being in same guild" thing hasn't been true for a good while now). However with 5.10, VM gods will become a lot more pug friendly, so there's that. PVE enthusiasts that are very strong have new content, PVE enthusiasts that aren't as good also get new(ish) content.

Edited by Eloi_BG
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So, to be exact, this has become guild-only content.

"Has become"?

 

This isn't some new change. And you've been playing this game for years, Alrik.

 

Why are you acting so surprised that NM operations would be difficult for a random group of strangers?

Edited by Khevar
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i didn't played gods mm, but hm.

i would agree, that the chance is near zero.

 

but i need to contradict, that this is for all mm operations,

or was.

 

back in 4.0 times we had some open pugs each day,

lfm with just hm experience to clear mm operations. but

even today there are some left, seldom but they are still

running and clearing the mm content.

 

but of course, the most players running mm content are in

static groups and the majority of member searches are for

filling up such a static group.

 

i hope that the rewards would help to revive the end content.

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An open PUG for MM operations really does bring back the nightmare name.

 

I see PUGs for MM content all the time but they're closed PUGs on comms. Known players who are current or ex NiM guild members checking up on others like them to get a group together. An outsider in these groups is someone on trial or a buyer.

 

Anyone volunteering to condense MM training into a few hours for genuine fleet PUG roles is a masochist.

 

You really want decent organisation and guaranteed competence for MM operations or you might as well flush all previous "progress" every time you remake the group.

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As the game keeps building, you can only expect the new master modes to get harder and harder. I've noticed that even harder flashpoints get more and more complicated than a simple tank and spank plus 1-2 other mechanics. The mechanics keep rising and rising, often with a whole new phase to study until only the most committed players with some mild ADD can clear them. If pre-3.0 ops in "MM" were hard for you, you'd better not even bother trying to pug MM Gods if you're referring to that.

 

I blame the difficulty scaling of the game, instead of having damage balanced to a somewhat constant level w/ each expansion/mode so fights aren't a faceroll-but they aren't murder for healers, and just adding mechanics to harder modes (As I wish it was) They up the mechanics as well as increase damage dealt by existing mechanics as much as 200% occassionally. They should be picking one or the other, or at least offering tutorial modes so players know all the possible mechanics of the fights firsthand, not having to study on Dulfy or something.

 

Even Veteran Modeing old ops as far back as KP can be a failure because pugging assumes people can just sleep through it, and don't need to vet their players in any meaningful capacity. Every fight comes down to all players making it easiest on the healers to keep the group alive. For a fight like Dread Guards back in TFB, that means tanks agreeing on swapping no later than x debuff stacks, and the rest of the group not standing in a hardmode amount of stupid pools, other bosses on that op are pug killers but Guards is probably the test of a minimum amount of awareness, aka "not sleeping through it". And Enrage issues need no mentioning.

 

If anyone offers to take you on MM ops these days, pug or otherwise, you'd better believe they will ride you HARD about your min/maxing, parse numbers, and augment choices, they will expect you to see the whole op through, that means be prepared to battle the hardest boss without a single mechanic forgotten. If one or two people are fatigued or sub-par, that's usually enough to unravel a group in its tracks.

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To me, this is like ... an slow "squeeze out" of PUGs of content. Which becomes more and more guild-exclusive content without labelling it so.

 

if you believe progresionraiding should be done by pugs.... i dont even have words for how ridiculous that is...

so if the hardest content can be done by pickup groups it would be so easy, that i guess 90% of current nightmare raiders would be gone due to boredom..

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