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Nerf Annihilation Marauder

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles
Nerf Annihilation Marauder

Lodinn's Avatar


Lodinn
05.06.2016 , 11:51 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by LudhaninRolgge View Post
I don't think the rotation is hard just fragile i.e. if you get tiny bit out of sync and things stop lining up perfectly the dps drop is very large (snip)
Exactly. I think every a tiny bit experienced anni mara can confirm that anni is quite strong, have not that bad target switching for a melee dot-based spec and some aoe even, but dummy numbers are just few hundreds higher than anything you could do on a boss with _minimal_ movement and scarcely any mechanics.

I do, however, support the point that bloodthirst+predation should cost some bit of dps for maras since otherwise it becomes a 'must have' rather than 'skill must be on par with other classes/specs'. AP has burst, however, and it really matters on Bront/Styrak, so...

Quote: Originally Posted by LudhaninRolgge View Post
Added visual dps/hps spread to http://ixparse.com/rating/ - sents/maras may be dummy heroes, but in real fights all classes seem to be on par

http://ixparse.com/rating/
Great job! At long last some actual data in this thread to base assumptions on.
Aaand, like I said, poor sins/operatives/sorcs. Those are the real outliers (and given dps checks it's more like they need a buff rather than other classes - a nerf). PvPers would cry tho, but then again look at juggs. And sorchealers are the pain now from what I understand, madness maybe, but lightning - not that much. Amirite?

Quote: Originally Posted by LudhaninRolgge View Post
Class with amazing raid utility should do less damage since there are already a lot of reason to bring them in a raid.
Aye, like I stated above. PTs still largely prevail due to offtank capabilities as well and such. GJ on Revan damage types BW. That's the point that ruined old tanking & tank stats, but that's completely off the topic.

It's hard to balance classes for all bosses at the time, however - especially given release date and available toolkits for different classes at the moment. Predation, say, is amazing boost for the whole raid dps/survivability on some bosses while on some other it's next to useless. So tradeoff between utility<->survivability<->dps output is not always clear but IMHO developers should've made their minds clear about it, like, we rate raid buff as 2% own dps output, a kit of strong DCDs as 0.5-1%, other raid utility as ... etc etc.
But then again, don't think they can take it into consideration as they seemingly fail to balance dps on its own. Not sure why, little balance tweaks every minor patch (once a month, say) should be easy to implement.
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WheresMyWhisky's Avatar


WheresMyWhisky
05.06.2016 , 08:19 PM | #22
Just to be clear not my work that very awesome guy who wrote starparses work
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
05.26.2016 , 01:07 AM | #23
you can't balance or declare OP a spec depending on dummy parsing.

Live ops, safe perhaps SM modes of 4,0 which are a bit RollFaceOnKeyboard mode will sometimes strongly punish melees, by added damage, target switch, etc.

They will also sometimes punish ramp up spec a lot more than burst spec by sudden tight dps check (ex the HM calphayus add that cast mass corruption)

So it means, that in order to have sustained melee spec remain desirable, they do need higher dummy potential, as they will also be the one with the lowest effective application % in live ops.

They gave annihilation a good set of tools to stay on moving boss, quickly switch target even at range, altough obviously not at will like a Rdps, and good cooldowns to survive the extra damage that comes with melee range.

Thats something all mdps class, especially sustained should have.

the annihilation/carnage pve balance is currently in about as perfect a place as it can be. Both will do similarly in ops, with annihilation coming slightly on top, but carnage making burst dps phase much better.

Underlurker, imo, doesnt give carnage that many advantage. While its true there are a lot of interruption (rocks), they aren't long enough for annihilator stacks to fall off, and a single target switch to the add isn't that rotation breaking. You can also use some bleed spread if you land correctly near your add to make up the small dps loss you suffer compared to a spec like carnage.

Then its rock phase, so you come back to the fight with all your cooldowns availaible, and should keep dpsing at 4m on the cross to be under the archway.

All specs have their own perks and weaknesses, and while we can grossly say the highest to lowest dummy to ops losses are roughly:

Sustained Mdps -> burst mdps ->sustained range ->Burst range as a rule of thumb, it doesnt always come back exactly true for some specs, and they have to be balanced accordingly.

So dummy parse on parsely for bragging rights, not worth much imo. Most are done with macro, some using bugs to increase dps (Lightning and TK top parse come to mind) and none are done with a boss hitting at you and forcing you to move/switch according to diverse mechanic.

If we all have spec parsing the 224 gear 6612 dps average exactly on dummy, what you'll have are ops team with a bunch of rdps burst spec with little target switch restriction like Marksman/Sharpshooter, lightning/TK or Arsenal/Gunnery.

The later is probably a bit too strong currently. My ops team RDPS are both Arsenal merc, and sometimes I'm the sole Mdps on, with 3 arsenal mercs. Sometimes I get top dps. Sometimes they do. Depend on the fight and what happened, how it happened, when it happened. And I do think I'm a very good anni mara, even if I am far from being a master, I can get back into the optimal rotation very fast., and with minimal dps loss.

LudhaninRolgge's Avatar


LudhaninRolgge
05.26.2016 , 04:47 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
you can't balance or declare OP a spec depending on dummy parsing.

Live ops, safe perhaps SM modes of 4,0 which are a bit RollFaceOnKeyboard mode will sometimes strongly punish melees, by added damage, target switch, etc.
Which op do you balance them around ? Which boss ?

Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
So it means, that in order to have sustained melee spec remain desirable, they do need higher dummy potential, as they will also be the one with the lowest effective application % in live ops.
Thus you understand that a class having 350 more potential DPS on a dummy compared to the second similar class is far too much ?

Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
So dummy parse on parsely for bragging rights, not worth much imo. Most are done with macro, some using bugs to increase dps (Lightning and TK top parse come to mind) and none are done with a boss hitting at you and forcing you to move/switch according to diverse mechanic.
This is not bragging right though.

Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
The later is probably a bit too strong currently. My ops team RDPS are both Arsenal merc, and sometimes I'm the sole Mdps on, with 3 arsenal mercs. Sometimes I get top dps. Sometimes they do. Depend on the fight and what happened, how it happened, when it happened. And I do think I'm a very good anni mara, even if I am far from being a master, I can get back into the optimal rotation very fast., and with minimal dps loss.
Even if you're taking 2 overperforming spec as exemple, it shows how good balance should be done. Yes you're melee, but since you have more damage than the ranged in your group you can compete. The problem is that currently, marauders in general have too much tool in their arsenal on top of very good damage (except Fury, but that's a whole other story). Why would you take another melee than Anni or Carnage ?
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Tsetso's Avatar


Tsetso
05.26.2016 , 07:10 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by LudhaninRolgge View Post
Why would you take another melee than Anni or Carnage ?
For aoe vengeance imo has better dotspread than anni while still having some nice burst. AP has comparable burst to carnage with the additional cheese of HO and Sonic Rebounder(granted, no raid buff). Both have taunt as well. Operatives are meh but lethality can be played mostly outside melee range with a nice ST sustained dmg and a possible stealth rez. Assassins are probably the worst from melee classes but still manage(somehow).

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
05.26.2016 , 09:54 AM | #26
It is beyond irritating to see people using dummy parses as straight evidence for ANYTHING.

What's that class bottom 3rd for touching up dummies. Oh its AP PT.

GUESS NO ONE BRINGS THAT TO NIM RAIDS.

Engineering Snipers can touch up those dummies well and they're ranged, must be top picks. RIGHT?
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
05.26.2016 , 10:09 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
It is beyond irritating to see people using dummy parses as straight evidence for ANYTHING.

What's that class bottom 3rd for touching up dummies. Oh its AP PT.

GUESS NO ONE BRINGS THAT TO NIM RAIDS.

Engineering Snipers can touch up those dummies well and they're ranged, must be top picks. RIGHT?
People are using dummy parses as supportive arguments due to lack of experience from top tier raiding, that additionally explains some of the weird arguments made in this discussion. Overall tho, Marauders DPS output in PvE content should be rebalanced a bit, it's a tad bit to high at the moment compared to other classes and demands very little skill to execute.

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Diviciacus's Avatar


Diviciacus
05.26.2016 , 10:22 AM | #28
My favorite part of people crying about class X being overpowered is how close the DPS specs in TOR really are. The entire DPS spread in fully BIS 224 gear is around 11% (from Bant's numbers). That's amazing! +6%/-5% is an absurdly tight DPS spread for an MMO. That's barely even statistically significant! Any difference less than 5% doesn't even matter. It's not significant.

And the best part? Almost every class has at least one DPS spec above the median - Guardian/Juggernaut's top spec (Vigilance/Vengeance) is -0.48% below the median (a statistically insignificant number), so only Shadow/Assassin get shafted a little. And I mean a little: Infiltration/Deception are -1.13%, and Serenity/Hatred are 0.86%. WHO CARES?!

Look at World of Warcraft right now: There are classes which cap out at doing 30-40% less damage than the top specs. WoW has always been like this, and it's an embarrassment.
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LadyDarkkitten's Avatar


LadyDarkkitten
05.26.2016 , 03:53 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by BETLIFE View Post
Nerf Annihilation Marauder , to achieve class balance
and class balance(and bug fix) should be done frequently
Didn't anyone else notice the OP never posted again after this opener? Make an unsubstantiated controversial claim that will get folks riled up then sit back and /popcorn.

10/10 troll and the rest of you need to learn2internetz. srs.
Quote: Originally Posted by NathanielStarr
Here is my argument. The PvP is so good and balanced the game has to go free to play if it hopes to survive. More than 2/3rds of the player base left because PvP is too good. It's so good and balanced that no one wants to play it.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
05.26.2016 , 04:14 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyDarkkitten View Post
Didn't anyone else notice the OP never posted again after this opener? Make an unsubstantiated controversial claim that will get folks riled up then sit back and /popcorn.

10/10 troll and the rest of you need to learn2internetz. srs.
Yet here you are trying to score points while ironically declaring yourself in a trap.

And missing the point that a good argument is entertainment itself, not like there's anything else to do on these forums.
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