On another thread at some point I formulated with contributions from many people the following comparative table for DPS classes based on the following properties.

 

1. mobility: serious damaging while moving
   
2. burst: self-explanatory
   
3. range: anything that can shoot from more than 10m
   
4. invulnerability: not facerolled/insta death in a facetank situation
   
5. escape: mechanisms exist to escape from a single attack or a gang attack most importantly
   
6. utlility: abilities that contribute in increasing the team effectiveness and/or to "easier" accomplishment of the warzone objectives
   

 

 

sents/maras

• mobility: yes
  
• burst: yes
  
• range: no
  
• invulnerability: yes
  
• escape: yes
  
• utlitiy: yes (trans and bloodthirst)
  

Total: 5/6

 

guards/jugs-

• mobility: yes
  
• burst: yes
  
• range: no
  
• invulnerability: yes
  
• escape: yes
  
• utility: yes. guardian leap, taunt, easily switch to guard stance
  

Total: 5/6

 

vans/pts

• mobility: yes
  
• burst: yes
  
• range: limited they have some 30m hits with one being decent and the other although conditional it can hit really hard, hence 0.25 if not 0.5
  
• invulnerability: yes
  
• escape: no
  
• utility: quite decent. enemy pull is good particularly for hutball and if taking into account field respec for hutball (hence ball carriers with guardian leap) or in some cases guarding/defence, for this 0.75 as they are no longer dps considered, and let's face it who does it outside ranked games
  

Total: 4.00/6

 

snipers/slingers

• mobility: very limited in general, basic attack plus 1 more as far as i recall which does a bit more damage but is energy inefficient, 0.25 with reluctance
  
• burst: yes
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerability: yes
  
• escape: no
  
• utility: small-medium, (team shield although in very long cooldown from what I recall, more importantly xs flyby which prevents a node being capped) would give at least 0.25 for xs flyby if not 0.5
  

Total: 3.5/6

 

shadows/sins

• mobility: yes
  
• burst: yes
  
• range: no
  
• invulnerability: yes
  
• escape: yes
  
• utility: yes. their stealth makes them ideal solo defenders/attackers, enemy pull is also very good, force speed can also be used to quickly assist a node (although you only arrive a couple of secs earlier than the rest but still) or in hutball
  

Total: 5/6

 

ops/scounds

• mobility: yes
  
• burst: conditionally yes 0.5 here
  
• range: no
  
• invulnerability: no
  
• escape: yes
  
• utility: yes. their stealth makes them ideal solo defenders/attackers but they lack the rest of the utilities of shadows hence 0.5
  

Total: 3.0/6

 

comms/mercs

• mobility: no
  
• burst: yes
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerability: partial (0.5)
  
• escape: no
  
• utility: none afaik
  

Total: 2.5/6

 

sages/sorcs

• mobility: conditionally and weak, 0.5
  
• burst: no
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerability: no
  
• escape: yes but it's the easiest to counter and you are probably dead by the time you try to force speed away from a gang attack -still dying so quickly works as intended (bubble stun is not counted as it is even more stupid than smash). Hence 0.5.
  
• utility: yes. without considering bubble stun, they still have excellent utiliy. force speed can also be used to quickly assist a node (although you only arrive a couple of secs earlier than the rest but still) or in hutball, pull commonly used in hutball but also to save a friendly from a coordinated attack or pull an additional teammate closer to the node you are running to assist if you are ahead, etc. bubbles can sometimes save a teammate if there is no sage healer in the field, cleanses can cleanse dots from teammates but most importantly break the force mezzes (e.g. lift/whirlwind).
  

Total: 3.0/6

 

And the order is then out of 6:

5.00: tie - sents/maras, guards/jugs and shadows/sins

4.00: vans/ptechs

3.5: slingers/snipers

3.00: tie - sages/sorcs and scounds/ops

2.50: comms/mercs

 

An important point that I observe from this table is that all the classes that have been complaints about have 3/3 for mobility/burst/invulnerability.

 

A further observation is that there are:

5 melee dps classes out of which 4 are, let's use the diplomatic term, preferred and 1 might be considered in ranked if a team lacks a shadow (operatives)

3 ranged dps classes out of which 1 is preferred (snipers), 1 could be considered as an option in ranked (sages) and 1 which is not preferred at all (commandos).

Edited January 27, 2013 by MusicRider

We are now looking to extend this table with spec specific. For this we would like the contributions of the community. If you have significant experience please contribute. We are not aiming to start a flame war although disagreements will naturally occur. Thanks.

So I will make a start for sages/sorcs. I consider three dps specs: a) full balance/madness, b) full telekinetics/lightning, c) hybrid

 

Sages/Sorcerers

 

Full balance/madness

• mobility: conditionally and weak, 0.5
  
• burst: medium, 0.5
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerability: no
  
• escape: yes (force speed) but it's the easiest to counter. 0.5
  
• utility: yes.
  

Total: 3.5/6

 

Full telekinetics/lighning

• mobility: dare say non-existent. Weaken mind/affliction project/shock are/can be weaker as tk/light. Most importantly due to the casting of disturbance/lightning strike and turbolence/thunder blast vs the channelling of tk throw/force lightning and instant force in balance/death field, things are even worse.
  
• burst: medium. 0.5 (can be good fairly decent with mental alacrity/polarity shift)
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerabilty: low/medium. bubble stun extends life expectancy from 3-6 secs depending on the lockout duration of bubble. 0.25
  
• escape: much better than balance. force speed/bubble stun/rooted knockback are good tools. Let's say 0.75.
  
• utility: most comes from base advanced class which is already fairly good. With bubble stun it jumps to above excellent levels. Might not be able to maintain bubble stuns on all your team as dps but force management in tk/light certainly allows to apply it selectively which in some cases is even better. Considering that this ability has made having a bubble stunner in a team a necessity I give the beyond max value of 1.25.
  

Total: 3.75/6

 

Hybrid

• mobility: inherited from balance, 0.5
  
• burst: slightly lower than full specs, 0.25
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerabilty: low/medium, inherited from tk/lightning 0.25
  
• escape: inherited from tk/ligh, 0.75.
  
• utility: inherited from tk/light, 1.25
  

Total: 4/6

 

It might seem that tk/light is better than balance. However due to the general importance of mobility which for sages/sorcs is even more so, tk/light is considered as the weakest build of all for pvp.

 

The most viable is a hybrid built with decent survivability (invulnerability + escape), mobility and utility with a little bit lower burst when crits.

 

For people that try to avoid the bubble stun builds full balance or a hybrid built without it are still fairly viable options.

 

Might extend when I have more time for healing specs although this table was more for dps classes/specs.

Edited January 27, 2013 by MusicRider

vanguard/pt has the exact same defensive abilities that commando/merc posses, yet you gave the former invulnerability but not the latter.

 

You also gave vanguard/pt the same rating for utility that you gave shadow/assassin. The former has a pull. The latter has a pull plus a lot of other nifty tricks.

Vanguard/pt have insane damage which = utility = greater survivability, which is how it plays out in practice.

 

Not to mention assassins have to spec into the pull, while every single vanguard gets one regardless of spec.

 

Also since i saw Music Rider pull something like this to in the sage defensive thread,

 

New Thread,

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=581989

 

Muahahaa, it's not really new.

You also gave vanguard/pt the same rating for utility that you gave shadow/assassin. The former has a pull. The latter has a pull plus a lot of other nifty tricks.

It depends. If you consider an hybrid Shadow, yes. If you consider a full-Balance or full-Infiltration Shadow, then they don't even have pull.

Thanks for your reply.

 

vanguard/pt has the exact same defensive abilities that commando/merc posses, yet you gave the former invulnerability but not the latter.

I am happy to update it obciously as I am not playing a trooper/bounty. But why do you think comms/mercs are considerer easy targets contrary to vans/pts? I am sincerely asking not trying to poke you or anything.

 

You also gave vanguard/pt the same rating for utility that you gave shadow/assassin. The former has a pull. The latter has a pull plus a lot of other nifty tricks.

The value is different. Shadows have utility:1, vans have utility: 0.75. Not sure I understand. You are suggesting vans utility lowered ?

Also since i saw Music Rider pull something like this to in the sage defensive thread,

 

New Thread,

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=581989

 

Muahahaa, it's not really new.

The "new" was a followup of what we have been discussing in that thread and we felt like it deserved its own. Probably these things are not new, but I think the way they are presented is. This is a quantification table which actually yields some interesting results. A long descriptive analysis although valid can be confusing with the key points lost. If you would like to contribute something productive instead of mocking feel free to do so.

Edited January 27, 2013 by MusicRider

Did you even look at the link?

Did you even look at the link?

 

Yes I did mate.

Pretty sure everything in that link is constructive. Also should give you who hasn't played a mercenary/commando a better idea about the class. Not just about mercenaries, but also sorcerer and healers.

 

It's "On the topic" at hand.

 

As for not contributing anything to this thread... hrm. I wonder whof irst stated that assassins don't necessarily get a pull? Or how Vanguards have enough damage (which even under pressure isn't deterred) that it adds to their utility?

 

Is that not considered adding to the thread? Sheesh, at least Empereror Palpatine was charming.

Pretty sure everything in that link is constructive. Also should give you who hasn't played a mercenary/commando a better idea about the class. Not just about mercenaries, but also sorcerer and healers.

 

It's "On the topic" at hand.

 

The link you provided is a buff comm/merc healers. If you have read the first thread the table is foccussed on dps specs. The title is generic enough for others to accommodate such tables for healers and tanks if they wish so. Also I've started without saying anything about nerf smash buff mercs. I am only trying to present some results based on my experience and the other contributors in a numerical fashion. If you fail to understand the clarity that quantification presents over descripitive analysis I am afraid we will never be able to agree.

 

As for not contributing anything to this thread... hrm. I wonder whof irst stated that assassins don't necessarily get a pull? Or how Vanguards have enough damage (which even under pressure isn't deterred) that it adds to their utility?

 

Is that not considered adding to the thread?

 

Yes this is adding to the thread. Such clarifications are constructive and fine, especially when they come from people that actually play the class that is being commented on.

 

A further constructive feedback is if you have the experience as you claim to create a similar numerical table for comms/mercs and added here.

 

Sheesh, at least Empereror Palpatine was charming.

Not sure you are implying here. But mocking, trolling and silly nonsense will be dealt with a /ignore from my side. Constructive criticism and contributions exactly the opposite and because I think you have partly offered something in this thread is the reason that I am replying.

So I will make a start for sages/sorcs. I consider three dps specs: a) full balance/madness, b) full telekinetics/lightning, c) hybrid

 

Sages/Sorcerers

 

Full balance/madness

• mobility: conditionally and weak, 0.5
  
• burst: medium, 0.5
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerability: no
  
• escape: yes (force speed) but it's the easiest to counter. 0.5
  
• utility: yes.
  

Total: 3.5/6

 

Full telekinetics/lighning

• mobility: dare say non-existent. Weaken mind/affliction project/shock are/can be weaker as tk/light. Most importantly due to the casting of disturbance/lightning strike and turbolence/thunder blast vs the channelling of tk throw/force lightning and instant force in balance/death field, things are even worse.
  
• burst: medium. 0.5 (can be good fairly decent with mental alacrity/polarity shift)
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerabilty: low/medium. bubble stun extends life expectancy from 3-6 secs depending on the lockout duration of bubble. 0.25
  
• escape: much better than balance. force speed/bubble stun/rooted knockback are good tools. Let's say 0.75.
  
• utility: most comes from base advanced class which is already fairly good. With bubble stun it jumps to above excellent levels. Might not be able to maintain bubble stuns on all your team as dps but force management in tk/light certainly allows to apply it selectively which in some cases is even better. Considering that this ability has made having a bubble stunner in a team a necessity I give the beyond max value of 1.25.
  

Total: 3.75/6

 

Hybrid

• mobility: inherited from balance, 0.5
  
• burst: slightly lower than full specs, 0.25
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerabilty: low/medium, inherited from tk/lightning 0.25
  
• escape: inherited from tk/ligh, 0.75.
  
• utility: inherited from tk/light, 1.25
  

Total: 4/6

 

It might seem that tk/light is better than balance. However due to the general importance of mobility which for sages/sorcs is even more so, tk/light is considered as the weakest build of all for pvp.

 

The most viable is a hybrid built with decent survivability (invulnerability + escape), mobility and utility with a little bit lower burst when crits.

 

For people that try to avoid the bubble stun builds full balance or a hybrid built without it are still fairly viable options.

 

Might extend when I have more time for healing specs although this table was more for dps classes/specs.

 

sorry had to jump in here ....

balanced as lots of utility sever force is like sniper leg shot works when resolve is full

instant whirlwind 8 sec stun

force stun

force wave

 

burst...once you put on sever force, mind crush and weaken mind, try force in balnced, a proc disturbance and a double project.

 

as for lightning your are basing our burst on a skill that we get access to once every 2 mins for 10 secs? is that a joke?

So I will make a start for sages/sorcs. I consider three dps specs: a) full balance/madness, b) full telekinetics/lightning, c) hybrid

 

Sages/Sorcerers

 

Full balance/madness

• mobility: conditionally and weak, 0.5
  
• burst: medium, 0.5
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerability: no
  
• escape: yes (force speed) but it's the easiest to counter. 0.5
  
• utility: yes.
  

Total: 3.5/6

 

Full telekinetics/lighning

• mobility: dare say non-existent. Weaken mind/affliction project/shock are/can be weaker as tk/light. Most importantly due to the casting of disturbance/lightning strike and turbolence/thunder blast vs the channelling of tk throw/force lightning and instant force in balance/death field, things are even worse.
  
• burst: medium. 0.5 (can be good fairly decent with mental alacrity/polarity shift)
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerabilty: low/medium. bubble stun extends life expectancy from 3-6 secs depending on the lockout duration of bubble. 0.25
  
• escape: much better than balance. force speed/bubble stun/rooted knockback are good tools. Let's say 0.75.
  
• utility: most comes from base advanced class which is already fairly good. With bubble stun it jumps to above excellent levels. Might not be able to maintain bubble stuns on all your team as dps but force management in tk/light certainly allows to apply it selectively which in some cases is even better. Considering that this ability has made having a bubble stunner in a team a necessity I give the beyond max value of 1.25.
  

Total: 3.75/6

 

Hybrid

• mobility: inherited from balance, 0.5
  
• burst: slightly lower than full specs, 0.25
  
• range: yes
  
• invulnerabilty: low/medium, inherited from tk/lightning 0.25
  
• escape: inherited from tk/ligh, 0.75.
  
• utility: inherited from tk/light, 1.25
  

Total: 4/6

 

It might seem that tk/light is better than balance. However due to the general importance of mobility which for sages/sorcs is even more so, tk/light is considered as the weakest build of all for pvp.

 

The most viable is a hybrid built with decent survivability (invulnerability + escape), mobility and utility with a little bit lower burst when crits.

 

For people that try to avoid the bubble stun builds full balance or a hybrid built without it are still fairly viable options.

 

Might extend when I have more time for healing specs although this table was more for dps classes/specs.

 

Tell me, what is this table for, if the least viable sorc spec has better value then madness? I mean, you said that mobility has higher value then anything, but isn't it should be taken into account? Total value is supposed to show real value of the class/spec as far as i understand your intention. If you will fix invulnerability of vanguards to 0.5 (which is actually equal to mercs) then lightning sorc will be better then vanguard due to this evaluation

 

Thank you for attempt to arrange all this stuff, though. I hope this will succeed eventually, but for now it's really far from it in my opinion.

Edited January 27, 2013 by glocklB

burst...once you put on sever force, mind crush and weaken mind, try force in balnced, a proc disturbance and a double project.

 

as for lightning your are basing our burst on a skill that we get access to once every 2 mins for 10 secs? is that a joke?

 

I don't think you can throw a procced Disturbance once you've used Mind Crush since they share the same proc. If you want an instant Disturbance, you'll have to use a Telekinetic Throw, which will cause Mind Crush's DoT to not last for long and make the rotation way less bursty.

 

As for Lightning, like you, I don't think that Polarity Shift has a great effect on Sorcerers' burst. I think that the best burst a Lightning Sorcerer can do is Thunder Blast followed by an instant Chain Lightning and a 1.5s Force Lightning (and then try to proc a double Shock), which doesn't necessary need any kind of alacrity buffs.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Altheran

Thanks for your reply.

I am happy to update it obciously as I am not playing a trooper/bounty. But why do you think comms/mercs are considerer easy targets contrary to vans/pts? I am sincerely asking not trying to poke you or anything.

 

Lack of mobility, defenses, their dps is easily shut down by any one of numerous ways, and it takes a few GCDs to get the damage actually up and running to begin with.

 

VG/PT better mobility, instant casts, takes far few GCDs to get their damage out, and getting the procs for their heavy hitters are far more reliable than the commando/merc versions.

I don't think you can throw a procced Disturbance once you've used Mind Crush since they share the same proc. If you want an instant Disturbance, you'll have to use a Telekinetic Throw, which will cause Mind Crush's DoT to not last for long and make the rotation way less bursty.

 

As for Lightning, like you, I don't think that Polarity Shift has a great effect on Sorcerers' burst. I think that the best burst a Lightning Sorcerer can do is Thunder Blast followed by an instant Chain Lightning and a 1.5s Force Lightning (and then try to proc a double Shock), which doesn't necessary need any kind of alacrity buffs.

 

Set up the proc before hand then hard cast mind crush and burst away

But also u should be able to get both proc if u throw 2 throw I between your rotation

Edited January 27, 2013 by warstory

Thanks all for the contributions. Will update/reply when I have a bit more time.

Set up the proc before hand then hard cast mind crush and burst away

But also u should be able to get both proc if u throw 2 throw I between your rotation

 

i wonder how will you hard cast mind crush if you have a proc active?

sorry had to jump in here ....

Sure. Feel free to do so.

 

balanced as lots of utility sever force is like sniper leg shot works when resolve is full

instant whirlwind 8 sec stun

force stun

force wave

Whirlwind is an 8 mezz and not an 8 sec stun. But, I am not sure I am getting the point here. None said otherwise about the utility of balance or sages in general.

 

burst...once you put on sever force, mind crush and weaken mind, try force in balnced, a proc disturbance and a double project.

Burst would be 6.5k smash, followed by 5k force scream (the only one abiding to normal crit), followed by a 5k vicious throw (pretty common due to 15% buff). This is 16.5K in 2 gcd = 3 secs. According to your rotation by then you will have sever, force, mind crush and weaken mind on the target doing what? Also why would you put mind crush and then force in balance, you even have weaken mind in between, i.e. you are wasting ticks of mind crush that go unproced. Also why would you cast mind crush which is a 2 sec cast, but use the proc for disturbance which is 1.5?

 

as for lightning your are basing our burst on a skill that we get access to once every 2 mins for 10 secs? is that a joke?

No it's not a joke if you play tk/lightning where you have 2s turbulence and 1.5s disturbances to cast, which also become uninterruptible.

Lack of mobility, defenses, their dps is easily shut down by any one of numerous ways, and it takes a few GCDs to get the damage actually up and running to begin with.

 

VG/PT better mobility, instant casts, takes far few GCDs to get their damage out, and getting the procs for their heavy hitters are far more reliable than the commando/merc versions.

 

Now I am confused.

Tell me, what is this table for, if the least viable sorc spec has better value then madness? I mean, you said that mobility has higher value then anything, but isn't it should be taken into account? Total value is supposed to show real value of the class/spec as far as i understand your intention. If you will fix invulnerability of vanguards to 0.5 (which is actually equal to mercs) then lightning sorc will be better then vanguard due to this evaluation

 

Thank you for attempt to arrange all this stuff, though. I hope this will succeed eventually, but for now it's really far from it in my opinion.

 

The values are unweighted results, ie without any modifiers representanting their importance. Given all equal these are the values. In practice though a few of these variables play a much more important role. But before we come up with some weights it would be more helpful if we had similar tables for the other classes specs. Also regarding sages/sorcs if you think that there are different values I would be interested to hear your tables.

Vigilance Guardian

 

Mobility: two Leaps, instant abilities - but our most important ability, the one we're constantly attempting to reset, roots us in place for three seconds. A very kiteable spec as Freezing Force can be cleansed.

 

Burst: Very RNG-dependent or situational. Leap + Master Strike + Overhead Slash combo can do up to 14k damage in less than four GCDs but that depends on crit chance so all the stars have to align; also, it's all white damage and there are tons of cooldowns in the game to ruin this kind of burst entirely (Evasion, Deflection, Stealth, Force Camouflage, Pacify, Force Speed, Saber Ward, Leaping away before the last hit of MS). On targets at about 50% or lower we have good burst thanks to the basically autocrit Blade Storm and Dispatch. Overhead Slash - Blade Storm - Dispatch can do 9-12k damage in three GCDs; however, if the target gets healed, the plan is screwed as you won't be able to use Dispatch; also, OS and Dispatch are both white damage.

 

Range: no

 

Invulnerability: Focused Defense, Saber Ward, Enure helps a lot but not on a par with Undying Rage or Resilience + Deflection.

 

Escape: the two Leaps can both act as escapes and the AoE mez is tremendous if the stunlock ceases for just a second. Not exactly Stealth or Force Camo but okay.

 

Utility: excellent imho, second only to hybrid tank Guardians as Huttball carriers, can act as emergency healer guards, two taunts, Force Push, Guardian Leap, AoE mez

I really don't think you can make a table like this applicable. It's always going to have a bias. For instance, I would have rated sorcs pretty damn low in any class balance table. I hadn't played one properly since January. I've been playing one recently (and no i'm not bubble spec) and i've got to say that I am seriously surprised by how strong the sorc class is. Madness is a really really good tree. If lightning had the same level of mobility then sorcs would have 3 great trees.

Vigilance Guardian

Thanks Siorac. That's excellent.