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ED/FD On Jug/Guard tanks pre-buff: How useful was it?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
ED/FD On Jug/Guard tanks pre-buff: How useful was it?

Maudril's Avatar


Maudril
07.09.2014 , 07:48 PM | #1
Before the ED buff, I used it from time to time, coupled it with a taunt and backhand typically. It wasn't too useful, and I have not noticed much of a difference since the buff from a tank point of view.

How was it as a DCD before the buff? Was it buffed significantly for the tank?

Joel_Eisenlipz's Avatar


Joel_Eisenlipz
07.10.2014 , 12:12 PM | #2
Extremely situational, as the health gain was almost never worth the threat drop for a tank. Now, I use it religiously. It's probably 100 times more useful now--more health gain and no threat drop.
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Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
07.10.2014 , 12:20 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Maudril View Post
Before the ED buff, I used it from time to time, coupled it with a taunt and backhand typically. It wasn't too useful, and I have not noticed much of a difference since the buff from a tank point of view.

How was it as a DCD before the buff? Was it buffed significantly for the tank?
The heal is based off your bonus healing, it's 2.325 * bonus healing = hp/tick, ticks can crit as normal force crit chance, and recieve the same surge multiplier. Additionally they removed the threat drop from it, which is the biggest thing they could have done for tanks. The nerf to 10 seconds duration (from 30s after the buff) weakens it a bit for PvE, but is fine for PvP under focus fire, or multiple dots ticking on you.

As a tank, there is no reason not to use it whenever it's up and you are taking alot of damage, you have to drop below 70% remaining hp to activate it, but there's no drawbacks to using it anymore at all. In PvE it's a good tool for flattening a high damage phase, in PvP it's a good tool for when you get focused, or are taking alot of periodic damage attacks.

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AAAAzrael
07.10.2014 , 12:59 PM | #4
Best use now in PVE is Brontes's orbs - you will heal to full like Sorcerers in the famous song
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Maudril's Avatar


Maudril
07.10.2014 , 05:07 PM | #5
I used it typically as part of taunt fluffing if needed. I only ran 55 hard modes at the time, I never lost threat because of ED. Line it up with a taunt and/or backhand for single targets (Or just before an AOE taunt) and the threat drop aspect was negligible.

I mostly want to know if its straight healing was a buff for tanks. Tanks didn't give a F about the resources it took, as typically a jugtank is swimming in Rage if Enrage and Sundering Strike are used on CD. Couple that with the threat drop being negated with a taunt I am not considering those aspects as a large buff.

I want to know about the healing. Is its healing as a 2min cooldown a significant buff as opposed to its heals as a 45sec cooldown?

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sanctified
07.10.2014 , 05:21 PM | #6
I never touched it before the change. I didn't like the idea of both spending rage and losing threat all in one go. Now, it's such a helpful skill that you'd be crazy not to use it. I do wish it was straight up health regeneration though, instead of being dependent on enemy damage.
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Vaidinah
07.10.2014 , 06:00 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Maudril View Post
Before the ED buff, I used it from time to time, coupled it with a taunt and backhand typically. It wasn't too useful, and I have not noticed much of a difference since the buff from a tank point of view.

How was it as a DCD before the buff? Was it buffed significantly for the tank?
Enraged Defense was a good defensive cooldown in the past, especially so pre-2.0. This is because pre-2.0, the hybrid Jugg tank was the best spec for tanking and in here, ED gave us a 15% reduction in damage on top of the 3% heals on a 45 second cooldown. In comparison, Invincible gives us a roughly 30% reduction in damage (it says 40%, but it's not what you would think) on a 3 minute cooldown (2.5 minutes now). Enraged Defense was technically the 2nd best defensive cooldown Juggs had (after Saber Ward) back then. The aggro and Rage loss was difficult for most players to deal with, but with a lot of practice and thought, it could be worked around. I had explanations on how to utilize it in my guide, but since it has been changed, they were removed. Our other cooldowns used to line up really well with it like the AoE taunt (also 45 seconds), Enrage (45 seconds), and Endure Pain (90 seconds).

After 2.0 and before the change, it was still a pretty good defensive cooldown, but the full tanking tree is just straight up better than the hybrid for almost every fight so it only healed. It used to heal for 3% of our health, but only trigger once a second for 10 seconds. Ideally, a 30% heal every 45 seconds was really, really good, but realistically, that almost never happened. Endure Pain increases your max health so the heal went up as well for a maximum of a 39% heal. You could still get about 5 triggers for a 15-20% heal fairly consistently on most bosses when used correctly, though.

In its current form, you can get a static 2k heal triggered roughly 7 times when used correctly (all 10 in ideal situations) for about a 14k heal (33% of our health) on a 2 minute cooldown. Due to the bizarre and totally unnecessary "below 70%" requirement to use it now, it's less useful than it should be as well.

So overall, the change to ED made it significantly weaker as a defensive cooldown, especially compared to pre-2.0 ED in hybrid Jugg tank spec where the difference is more stark. However, it is much, much easier to use now with no loss to aggro or Rage so for most players' purposes, it's better for them because it saw little use by the vast majority of players. For the people who actually used it well before the changes, it's a big nerf and a dumbing down of what used to be an interesting and fun skill to master.
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Maudril's Avatar


Maudril
07.11.2014 , 08:52 AM | #8
That is what I thought as well. I used it well before the buff, and felt the buff underwhelming for the tanks. Overall, a good thing, as the jug tanks did not need a buff to their DCD's. If it is a slight nerf in effect, that gives people less reason to ***** about Jugtank's DCD's.
However, I do miss the remarks I got about being a Jugtank that actually could use ED well

A question though, a lot of that seems to apply to PVP. The difference in PVP though is of course you are near guaranteed to use all your stacks, or to get hit for the entire 10 secounds unless the team is good enough to be able to ignore you while your DCD's are up. Was it a buff for PVP, or is the whining there about the ED buff for jugtanks follow the same psychology that makes freshly buffed specs "Flavor of the Month"? It seems to me to be the latter.

Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
07.11.2014 , 09:03 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Maudril View Post
That is what I thought as well. I used it well before the buff, and felt the buff underwhelming for the tanks. Overall, a good thing, as the jug tanks did not need a buff to their DCD's. If it is a slight nerf in effect, that gives people less reason to ***** about Jugtank's DCD's.
However, I do miss the remarks I got about being a Jugtank that actually could use ED well

A question though, a lot of that seems to apply to PVP. The difference in PVP though is of course you are near guaranteed to use all your stacks, or to get hit for the entire 10 secounds unless the team is good enough to be able to ignore you while your DCD's are up. Was it a buff for PVP, or is the whining there about the ED buff for jugtanks follow the same psychology that makes freshly buffed specs "Flavor of the Month"? It seems to me to be the latter.
Yes, it was basically a buff for PvP since the vast majority of people only used ED in PvP because of not wanting to chance the threat drop. It's still not bad for PvE though, while the heal itself isn't as great for a tank as a straight up %hp (which scales better with tank gear), it actually generates threat for you now, in addition to your normal rotation.

The whine isn't because of jugtanks, it's because of jug DPS, the current edition of ED scales better with DPS stats than tank stats, so it's a very effective DCD for a DPS in the right conditions. The whine was because it lasted for 30 seconds, meaning you could pop it and get healed for all 10 charges regardless of the circumstances. With the reduction in duration, you have to be a bit more judicious in its use to get all 10 charges done in 10 seconds.

Maudril's Avatar


Maudril
07.11.2014 , 10:46 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Draqsko View Post
Yes, it was basically a buff for PvP since the vast majority of people only used ED in PvP because of not wanting to chance the threat drop. It's still not bad for PvE though, while the heal itself isn't as great for a tank as a straight up %hp (which scales better with tank gear), it actually generates threat for you now, in addition to your normal rotation.

The whine isn't because of jugtanks, it's because of jug DPS, the current edition of ED scales better with DPS stats than tank stats, so it's a very effective DCD for a DPS in the right conditions. The whine was because it lasted for 30 seconds, meaning you could pop it and get healed for all 10 charges regardless of the circumstances. With the reduction in duration, you have to be a bit more judicious in its use to get all 10 charges done in 10 seconds.
Threat is not a mechanic in PVP, threat drops as far as I know are useless in and of themselves. Chaff Flare is useful for Arsenal Mercs because of damage abosrb, and Pyro PT's because of the defense chance. But Cloud Mind for sorcs? Useless, enemies are not AI's that can be told to ignore a target.

The current edition scaling with DPS stats is intentional. The Devs were comfortable with the Tank's DCD's, but not with the DPS Cooldowns. Jug DPS was the first focus in an arena because even if they didn't die (they had no way to survive focus), they would be rage starved because of ED. They meant for Jug DPS to have an emergency DCD, which I thought was a rather lazy solution. Lazy solution that lead to a balance issue, mussing up DPS play in lower-end PVE, and making it really hard to capitalize on in PVE raids (How often is a DPS really taking 10 hits in 10s? I don't really raid yet, but in 55HM's its rare with a decent tank). That was less of an issue when it was 45s.