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Why was the Outlander so weak before Vaylin and Arcann?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why was the Outlander so weak before Vaylin and Arcann?

Leaveshill's Avatar


Leaveshill
12.17.2015 , 05:50 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
Ok lets take it logically first he is a Darth right? Second a Dark Council member right?
Now lets see what we know about Darth's well each of them have a power base of some extent proved by quite a number Darth's we meet.
Lets take Darth Angral for example he had 4 sith lords under his command and a huge ship and a army is that true?
Now was Darth Angral on the council? No he was not and yet he had quite a powerful power base.
Lets take Darth Baras for example he had about 4 apprentices we know of and a freaking intelligence base surpassed only by Darth Janus also a small army.
Darth Baras was also not a dark council member.
And then comes Darth Thanaton actual council member how many sith where did you all saw during the Kaggath?
How many of them where Darth rank and how many darth and lords where killed by the SI in the struggle that took years who where subordinates to Thanaton?
Now was Darth Vengeance a dark council member and a Darth?
Angral had 4 Sith Lords under him. This is possibly what Vengean has in his compound; four Sith lords. And a lot of Sith that's outside of his compound, that serve him through his other apprentices (like Darth Baras), or are out doing tasks. Angral has a huge powerbase, but it's not big compared to Thanaton's, Baras' or Vengean's.

I'm not saying that Vengean doesn't have a lot of Sith Lords under him; however, I'm stating that Vengean doesn't have most of his Sith inside his personal compound. He's fighting a war; his apprentices, Sith-followers have to be out waging war, doing tasks he has specified them to. Also, of course, a lot of the Sith aren't directly under him; A lot of the sith are under his servants (Like; under Baras; or under other of his Servants that has their own powerbases within his powerbase)

And yes, Thanaton has a huge powerbase; obviously. But he has his own powerbase that he spend decades on getting, as well as the entire powerbase of his former master whom he kills. Keep also in mind that the SI kills more Sith during the Kaggath than the Wrath did during his attack on Vengean's stronghold(or than the Wrath on Corellia, for that matter) due to it being a Kaggath; powerbase vs powerbase, and therefore Thanaton had almost his entire powerbase stationed at Corellia.

Vengean on the other hand, most likely didn't have his entire powerbase stuck in his basement, he had the 3 or 4 sith you kill to get keys. Of course I may be wrong, but I can't see the point in having 10 sith in his basement, just like I can't see Thanaton send a dozen sith to assist as powerful Sith Lord in killing two mere apprentices. And I can't see all the other Sith filling their homes with lots of sith either. A few, yes, but unless there's a specific reason to, then huge portions of the powerbase won't he in the basement. Therefore most of the Sith-kills are simply game-mechanics. It would be madness otherwise. "Hehe I'm just gonna save my apprentice, better ready myself to kill those 13 sith Assassins.."

Vengean and Thanaton probably had pretty equal powerbases, but the fact stands that Vengean had just been weakened from the failed war-effort due to Baras' treachery which probably took down a rather big portion of it, and I seriously doubt that he recalled all of his Sith to sit idle by in his basement. His loyal apprentices, sure, but most of the Sith-NPCs you see aren't really part of his normal defences, they're out doing missions and leading the war-effort. Therefore most nameless NPCS aren't relevant. Sure, the troopers are; but force users are something different and there's very, very few not-named NPCS that you kill that's actually kills. The Jedi strikeforce-commander for SI on Alderaan or the Cyborg Sith-Guards on Corellia are some examples. And the JK kills some nameless Sith as well; but ALMOST all of the nameless Sith or Jedi are simply game-mechanics.

adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.17.2015 , 06:39 AM | #42
Okay you are missing a key thing here Vengean knew that he will be attacked by Barass so its stands to reason that he was prepared and brought most of his power base to his stronghold. He was not sending his sith to war when he had the snake at his doorstep.
It even makes sense you bring all you got to defend yourself.

Chaloss's Avatar


Chaloss
12.17.2015 , 07:58 AM | #43
Ok, maybe my last post was too vague.

I do not know about rest, but I came to this thread to read about Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann. I did not come here to read zillionth version of who is strongest of player options.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.17.2015 , 03:46 PM | #44
Ok guys, do you mind stop the current debate for a moment?

I just played the first 9 chapters with my SI character and I noticed it. During the Chapter8 fight she was mostly having a lightsaber duel with Arcann rather than use all the Force power she was good at, I guess that's why she loses.

adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.18.2015 , 12:15 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Ok guys, do you mind stop the current debate for a moment?

I just played the first 9 chapters with my SI character and I noticed it. During the Chapter8 fight she was mostly having a lightsaber duel with Arcann rather than use all the Force power she was good at, I guess that's why she loses.
Yeah the SI and JC should have used force powers not lightsaber combat not that their weak at it but its not their strength their strength are in their force abilities. SI should have used lighting lighting upon lighting upon lighting upon lighting adding to that more lighting add to it even more lighting then even more lighting.
JC should have used force push with more more force push with debris trow followed by more debris trow followed by more force push followed by even more force push then more and then even more and more force push then using debris then more force push.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.18.2015 , 11:41 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
Yeah the SI and JC should have used force powers not lightsaber combat not that their weak at it but its not their strength their strength are in their force abilities. SI should have used lighting lighting upon lighting upon lighting upon lighting adding to that more lighting add to it even more lighting then even more lighting.
JC should have used force push with more more force push with debris trow followed by more debris trow followed by more force push followed by even more force push then more and then even more and more force push then using debris then more force push.
I disagree. My Shadow is awesome with a lightsaber

That all said, I think it's time they just made the classes a mix of both, as I think most players would prefer a mix of both and not just "Oh I focus on lightsaber" or "Oh, I just focus on force abilities"
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

jauvtus's Avatar


jauvtus
12.18.2015 , 01:04 PM | #47
Who's considered the most powerful Force user of this time? Vitiate/Valkorion. The only one stronger than him is the one who can defeat him. And the vision confirms that it will be the JK who eventually defeats the Emperor for good. So JK is the strongest PC

fovzwk's Avatar


fovzwk
12.19.2015 , 05:30 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by jauvtus View Post
Who's considered the most powerful Force user of this time? Vitiate/Valkorion. The only one stronger than him is the one who can defeat him. And the vision confirms that it will be the JK who eventually defeats the Emperor for good. So JK is the strongest PC
Yeah I'm pretty sure that plot point has been thrown under the bus by now. Whatever class you play as in KoTFE (or whenever the time for Vitiate/Valkorion to be killed off for real/be redeemed comes) will be the one to do it . Or it might even be an NPC like Vaylin or Senya for example. Anyways I'm 99.8% certain that the "only the Jedi knight can defeat the emperor prophecy" will from now on be either never mentioned again in hopes of making players forget it ever existed or it will be handwaved away somehow.
Also just on a side note: defeating the strongest Force user does not automatically mean that you are stronger than said forceuser. Most of the time it just means, that the hero lucked out somehow or the villains god-like powers somehow failed them all of a sudden because the plot demanded it.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.19.2015 , 06:29 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by fovzwk View Post
Yeah I'm pretty sure that plot point has been thrown under the bus by now. Whatever class you play as in KoTFE (or whenever the time for Vitiate/Valkorion to be killed off for real/be redeemed comes) will be the one to do it . Or it might even be an NPC like Vaylin or Senya for example. Anyways I'm 99.8% certain that the "only the Jedi knight can defeat the emperor prophecy" will from now on be either never mentioned again in hopes of making players forget it ever existed or it will be handwaved away somehow.
Also just on a side note: defeating the strongest Force user does not automatically mean that you are stronger than said forceuser. Most of the time it just means, that the hero lucked out somehow or the villains god-like powers somehow failed them all of a sudden because the plot demanded it.
So the idea is to ruin the story as it's been told to us so far?

BTW: I say this as someone who doesn't care for the Knight storyline
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
12.19.2015 , 06:46 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
Even Nox?
What is with this "SI is stronger than everyone else" attitude? Its really annoying to see this every *********** time. Give it a rest already

Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
Yeah the SI and JC should have used force powers not lightsaber combat not that their weak at it but its not their strength their strength are in their force abilities. SI should have used lighting lighting upon lighting upon lighting upon lighting adding to that more lighting add to it even more lighting then even more lighting.
JC should have used force push with more more force push with debris trow followed by more debris trow followed by more force push followed by even more force push then more and then even more and more force push then using debris then more force push.
I agree with this sentiment simply so that the cutscenes would have some uniqueness to them. I admit painting all player characters with the same brush and generally having someone else do the bulk of the work in cutscenes is also really annoying.
"What is a Sith? Over time, the beliefs have changed, but one constant has remained. The imposition of one's will on the force, on the environment surrounding one, on the galaxy itself." - Darth Wyyrlok III