Jump to content

[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics


Nightkin

Recommended Posts

So...i will start with a link to the QA in question- http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/22564-jonathan-crow-answers-questions-regarding

 

 

In particular in want to highlight the following; "We pay very close attention to both engagement and balance in PvP. Some things we examine are player kill to death ratios and average rewards gained for every class to make sure that balance is maintained across the board.

 

And ; Balance-wise, kill/death ratios are well-balanced, with all Advanced Classes having kill/death ratios very close to each other.

 

I guess that means that dps sorc/sage and dps merc/trooper is perfectly fine? What about Shieldtech PTs? According to these metrics, "kill/death ratios are well-balanced" across all AC...

 

For real?! I simply cannot comprehend how this could possibly be true when you have some classes who clearly have great difficulties to perform on a adequate level. Hell, even i am getting interested in rolling something like a shadow these days...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 128
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

part of the problem with Merc/Commando right now is that just about everyone has given up playing it. the only people still playing Merc/Commando are the cream of the crop; they have usually been playing the longest, have fully optimized their gear, and have developed the skill needed to compete in unranked (ranke if they have a good team) warzones despite their disadvantages.

 

as such, whatever metrics bioware has for Merc/Commando is from a significantly smaller sample size than say Mara/Sents. while there is a large population of Mara/Sents to dilute the metrics, it is not a true representation of the class's ability when used by a skilled player.

 

lets say that the top 5% of Marauders average >= 400k damage a warzone. the bottom 50% average <200k per wz. because the majority of the sample is <200k, the overall population average will be massively diluted and not truly represent the capabilities of the class.

 

the Mercs that still remain are, for the most part, the best at their class. they are the top 5% of the original Merc population.

 

if bioware wants to develop *real* metrics, they would use equal sample sizes of each AC, rather than look at only overall averages. so if there are only 500 Merc/Commandos to get metrics from, they would not be compared to 5,000 Mara/Sents

Edited by cashogy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some huge issues with the way they compare classes using metrics.

 

1. Skill: The played skill in this game has an enormous range. I've seen plenty of players with full WH gear and couldn't break 100K anything in a 15 minute match. On the other end of that is a number of players who are breaking 1 million + in a 15 minute match. Using metrics in a game with such a large skill gap seems foolish.

 

2. Using K/D ratios in a game where all you have to do is breathe the same air to get credit for a kill... that's a bad idea. Especially for instance a sorc/sage. A good sorc/sage will nearly always have the most kills (bubbles, off healing and especially DOTS). A sorc/sage is involved with almost every kill in one way or another.

 

Just one example of why that's a horrible way to determine balance. I'm sure you get the picture.

 

3. Regular warzones are surely being used for these metrics. If rated was being used merc/commando metrics would read "0".

 

Rated war zones... while obviously less active would make for much better metrics. Using regular war zones is like using high school football to create a safer helmet for the NFL.

 

In rated PvP the skill gap is nearly always much closer in comparison, players are equally geared or near it, and even KDR would be slightly more balanced. You won't have sorcs spamming affliction on people just for the big numbers at the end of the match. People are playing with a purpose.

 

Just my opinions...

Edited by UGLYMRJ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2. Claiming smash juggs are balanced and saying the reason we complain is just because there is a lot of them.

but...that is the reason I complain about them. no one lolsmasher bothers me. I don't care if he averages 700k. two of them in the same area, however, is painful, and 3 is just...ok. can we put a saber restriction on wz's please? :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

part of the problem with Merc/Commando right now is that just about everyone has given up playing it. the only people still playing Merc/Commando are the cream of the crop; they have usually been playing the longest, have fully optimized their gear, and have developed the skill needed to compete in unranked (ranke if they have a good team) warzones despite their disadvantages.

 

as such, whatever metrics bioware has for Merc/Commando is from a significantly smaller sample size than say Mara/Sents. while there is a large population of Mara/Sents to dilute the metrics, it is not a true representation of the class's ability when used by a skilled player.

 

lets say that the top 5% of Marauders average >= 400k damage a warzone. the bottom 50% average <200k per wz. because the majority of the sample is <200k, the overall population average will be massively diluted and not truly represent the capabilities of the class.

 

the Mercs that still remain are, for the most part, the best at their class. they are the top 5% of the original Merc population.

 

if bioware wants to develop *real* metrics, they would use equal sample sizes of each AC, rather than look at only overall averages. so if there are only 500 Merc/Commandos to get metrics from, they would not be compared to 5,000 Mara/Sents

 

Make this #4 on my list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3. Regular warzones are surely being used for these metrics. If rated was being used merc/commando metrics would read "0". .

 

lol - you'd be surprised how many average guilds will bring in a commando - even a grav spammer. lol

 

speaking of which, is it just me, or do the grav spammers in reg wz's dwarf the number of assault specs? I mean...c'mmon. :eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but...that is the reason I complain about them. no one lolsmasher bothers me. I don't care if he averages 700k. two of them in the same area, however, is painful, and 3 is just...ok. can we put a saber restriction on wz's please? :(

 

saber restriction would be cool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

all you "experts" do understand that kill/death ratio isnt the only metric they look at in PVP, right?

 

You understand that just the fact that they used that as an example goes to show how clueless they can be about PvP and the metrics... right?

 

I'm not going to even go into the many problems about creating "balance" in MMO PvP... but it surely can NOT be done with mathematics.

 

They need to either play the game... of listen to an intelligent player base or G T F O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

part of the problem with Merc/Commando right now is that just about everyone has given up playing it. the only people still playing Merc/Commando are the cream of the crop; they have usually been playing the longest, have fully optimized their gear, and have developed the skill needed to compete in unranked (ranke if they have a good team) warzones despite their disadvantages.

 

as such, whatever metrics bioware has for Merc/Commando is from a significantly smaller sample size than say Mara/Sents. while there is a large population of Mara/Sents to dilute the metrics, it is not a true representation of the class's ability when used by a skilled player.

 

lets say that the top 5% of Marauders average >= 400k damage a warzone. the bottom 50% average <200k per wz. because the majority of the sample is <200k, the overall population average will be massively diluted and not truly represent the capabilities of the class.

 

the Mercs that still remain are, for the most part, the best at their class. they are the top 5% of the original Merc population.

 

if bioware wants to develop *real* metrics, they would use equal sample sizes of each AC, rather than look at only overall averages. so if there are only 500 Merc/Commandos to get metrics from, they would not be compared to 5,000 Mara/Sents

 

It is in this way that FoTM re-rollers actually stop a class from being nerfed...

 

But then BW buffed Focus, and when everyone dumped Watchman and Combat for it, they answered by nerfing Watchman so... I'm pretty sure most of their class changes are just either random, or specifically designed to make people mad. I'm sure they sit around their office trash talking each other and joking about who's going to win the office pool when we get to the 1000th Buff Commando/Nerf Marauder-PT thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But then BW buffed Focus, and when everyone dumped Watchman and Combat for it, they answered by nerfing Watchman so.

 

Both the rage buff and annihilation nerf were PvE related changes... which is just another part of the problem.

 

And why I think the idea of PvE and PvP trees being separated would help this game a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both the rage buff and annihilation nerf were PvE related changes... which is just another part of the problem.

 

And why I think the idea of PvE and PvP trees being separated would help this game a lot.

 

Absolutely. Just like WoW failed to do this, refusing to have seperate effects for PvP and PvE ultimately hurt the game. Any game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You understand that just the fact that they used that as an example goes to show how clueless they can be about PvP and the metrics... right?

 

I'm not going to even go into the many problems about creating "balance" in MMO PvP... but it surely can NOT be done with mathematics.

 

They need to either play the game... of listen to an intelligent player base or G T F O.

 

i understand this thread and threads like it are great examples why devs should never actually say anything to players.

 

they do play the game. listening only to players is the worst thing any dev can do. what they do is listen to player feedback, play the game themselves, look at the real data of what is happening in the game... they base adjustmets changes to the game on all those factors. balance isnt done with only mathematics, but is surely cant be done at all( or even close ) without mathematics.

 

anyway, give me a link to the MMO you created so i can see how good a job you did with balancing the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This actually does not surprise me one bit. Until they have a way to measure player skill, using a kdr I guess seems logical?

 

no. its probably the least representative metric of skill.

 

 

if bioware was smart, they would select a member of the community to represent each AC and their complaints//suggestions. any of you that played SWG would know about player Senators, this is the same idea. it would provide the community with a direct line of communication to the devs, but would also act as a filter for all of the stupid crap that ends up on the forums

Link to comment
Share on other sites

no. its probably the least representative metric of skill.

 

 

if bioware was smart, they would select a member of the community to represent each AC and their complaints//suggestions. any of you that played SWG would know about player Senators, this is the same idea. it would provide the community with a direct line of communication to the devs, but would also act as a filter for all of the stupid crap that ends up on the forums

 

As long as the people they elected weren't complete morons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just dont get why BW refuse to have a dialogue with us directly in regards to pvp. Why dont they make a huge poll concerning each class/spec atleast once per month so people who actively pvp can leave some feedback?

 

I mean, wich MMO has ever had succesful pvp without actually bother talking to their consumers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just dont get why BW refuse to have a dialogue with us directly in regards to pvp. Why dont they make a huge poll concerning each class/spec atleast once per month so people who actively pvp can leave some feedback?

 

I mean, wich MMO has ever had succesful pvp without actually bother talking to their consumers?

 

they did do that. as an example, inf/deception specs got some adjustments partly because they asked for feedback on the class section of the forums.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

who decides who these "intelligent" players are? will BW make some type of PVP/game IQ test that we all can take? are you one of these "intelligent" players that BW should listen to? hope not since you dont think math has any role in game balance. turth is, BW reads player feedback and they can see what is nonsense and what isnt. especially when they compare that feedback to objective data from game metrics. so no need to have some select group of "intelligent" players to be the only ones able to give feedback.

 

devs have made statements about how they all play the game( yes that includes pvp ).

 

except that 9/10 times game metrics are not representative of what is actually going on.

 

metrics usually take into account the whole population. which results in comparing samples with different sizes, which you generally shouldnt do.

 

it also means that the metrics are heavily diluted the greater the population. bioware should be using the top 5% of each class and adjusting sample sizes to make sure all ACs are compared equally.

 

you cannot objectively compare 5,000 Maras to 500 Mercs, and balancing them game on the performance of bad players is a terrible idea

Edited by cashogy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just dont get why BW refuse to have a dialogue with us directly in regards to pvp. Why dont they make a huge poll concerning each class/spec atleast once per month so people who actively pvp can leave some feedback?

 

I mean, wich MMO has ever had succesful pvp without actually bother talking to their consumers?

 

It is because BW has no real fix for the chaos they created, also PVP is NOT a priority for them.

 

 

Closing in on a year of Ilum being broke. The new warzone has yet to be released how long after the OP was? :rolleyes:

Edited by Mancer
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...