In rots, yoda had his chance to end the emperor, or future emperor, but he failed ... Obi wan did his part ... Had yoda defeated darth sidious, anakin would have died on mustafar ...

But then we wouldnt have seen the coolest sob to walk the systems ... Vader ... Hail to yoda ...

Yoda couldn't anyway, it wasn't his destiny the force wouldn't let him. In fact only Anakin could kill Palpatine, those that tried to couldn't the force wouldn't let them do it or it wasn't their destiny.

Mace vs Palpatine- Anakin shows up and cuts off Mace's hand.

Yoda vs Palpatine- It wasn't his destiny

Luke attacking the emperor in ROTJ- Vader blocked his strike

So it all boiled down to only Vader being the only one to kill him.

It's sad to think he probably would have won if he hadn't been blown off that platform.

Nope. He couldn't have won. Sidious manipulated him into that position and just prior to being blown off the platform he had his lightsaber knocked out of his hand. Not to mention Sidious wa splaying with him.

Nope. He couldn't have won. Sidious manipulated him into that position and just prior to being blown off the platform he had his lightsaber knocked out of his hand. Not to mention Sidious wa splaying with him.

Canon wise it's:

Movies > EU (wich includes books)

All of your argument is based on EU, wich is debatable if it's really the same thing we actually see at the movies.

I can agree with the Force not letting Yoda win, destiny and stuff.

But Yoda lacking the power to defeat Palpatine? Come on.

I really dont like that scene, it feels like Yoda gave up way too easy. You could see Yoda was stronger than palpatine and would've been able to defeat him eventually. Maybe Lucas should've added some injury to Yoda after his fall but nothing like that is implied.

It could've been done so much better with a little more thought and planning.

Canon wise it's:

 

Movies > EU (wich includes books)

 

All of your argument is based on EU, wich is debatable if it's really the same thing we actually see at the movies.

 

I can agree with the Force not letting Yoda win, destiny and stuff.

 

But Yoda lacking the power to defeat Palpatine? Come on.

He did. Movies > EU when there's a contradiction. Can you prove that the movies contradict the book? Can you prove, without a doubt, that Sidious wasn't toying with him? Or for that matter if he did happen to die he couldn't just switch to a younger more powerful body? In what way does the movies contradict these points? Yoda was much weaker than Palpatine. It's Canon. Even Leland Chee confirmed it and he was hired specifically to ensure that Canon meshes.

As I pointed out to you in another thread. Yoda's lightsaber was knocked from his hand. Sure, you claimed he could just use the force to pull it back up but first he'd have to locate it. It fell an awful long way and he'd have to survive long enough to get to it. You can't even claim he caught Yoda off guard. I mean, when he leapt away from the podium he was looking around for Yoda. Yoda leaps up and raises his saber and Sidious quickly turns and fires force lightning which forces Yoda to drop his saber. Yoda couldn't even block it with his saber.

From there you don't know how much countering Sidious lightning took it out on him. You don't know how much it took it out of Sidious. What we do know is Yoda left. Sidious did not. Sidious was willing to continue fighting. You can claim "The script called for it.." that argument can apply to anything. Why did enemy A kill enemy B? The script called for it. Yes the script called for it. The script called for Yoda to lose to Sidious. It's Canon.

Then you argue this point and go "Well I disregard the EU." Fine. You disregard the Eu. Then don't come in these threads debating this subject. EU is Canon. Sidious being more powerful is Canon. The movies only contradict EU canon when EU canon contradicts the movies. There is no contradiction. Sidious dies and comes back in a younger more powerful body.

You admit it's debatable. If it's debatable there's no clear contradiction. If there's no contradiction. Then it's Canon.

For anyone that's actually interested in the novelization and Leland Chee's thoughts on the matter..

Leland Chee

""Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

And the novelization..

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

And the above is true. Even after Return of the Jedi. Sidious returned. Cutting him down. Destroying him. None of that worked. It took another Jedi's sacrifice and forcing Sidious to become one with the force to end him for good. Cutting him down didn't work. Blowing him up doesn't work. You couldn't beat him in combat.

Lot's of words, some nonsense.

I think you're mistaken with the guy you're talking to (seems like you think you have read some of my answers before), might be a good idea to double check first hehe.

Can you provide us with a link with an official statement to back up what you're saying?

The thing is, books can be wonderful and bla bla bla. But movies are open to any interpretation. You say I cannot prove wrong, but neither can you.

All I know is this: at the movie's fight scene

- Yoda mocks Palpatine

- Yoda overpowers Palpatine force vs force

According to what we see at the movie:

- Palpatine has longer arms

You admit it's debatable. If it's debatable there's no clear contradiction. If there's no contradiction. Then it's Canon.

ROFLCOPTER

Your ignorance just made my day.

Tell that to Colombus and every other human in the world who proved your silly logic is in fact, WRONG.

I think you're mistaken with the guy you're talking to (seems like you think you have read some of my answers before), might be a good idea to double check first hehe.

 

Can you provide us with a link with an official statement to back up what you're saying?

 

The thing is, books can be wonderful and bla bla bla. But movies are open to any interpretation. You say I cannot prove wrong, but neither can you.

 

All I know is this: at the movie's fight scene

 

- Yoda mocks Palpatine

- Yoda overpowers Palpatine force vs force

 

According to what we see at the movie:

 

- Palpatine has longer arms

Here's the rules of Canon.

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]

T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Again, prove it. Where does the movie contradict my quotes? I don't have to prove it. It goes like this.

Can you prove the movie contradicts Sidious being more powerful.

If you can't prove it.

Then it does not.

EU states he's more powerful.

If there's no movie contradiction.

Sidious is more powerful.

Ah, now you resort to Ad Hominem. The last desperate resort to prove a point.

Again, prove it. Where does the movie contradict my quotes? I don't have to prove it. It goes like this.

 

Can you prove the movie contradicts Sidious being more powerful.

 

If you can't prove it.

 

Then it does not.

 

EU states he's more powerful.

 

If there's no movie contradiction.

 

Sidious is more powerful.

You're still following the same line of... whatever is going on inside your head (I dare not call that logic).

Sorry, that simply does not work. For anything in this world, just saying.

You're still following the same line of... whatever is going on inside your head (I dare not call that logic).

 

Sorry, that simply does not work. For anything in this world, just saying.

I also don't see you refuting any of my points. "Your logic does not work." isn't refuting anything.

And it's not "whatever is in my head." It's the rules of Canon.

I also don't see you refuting any of my points. "Your logic does not work." isn't refuting anything.

Your whole argument is resumed on "because x book says so".

What do you want me to refute about?

Your whole argument is resumed on "because x book says so".

 

What do you want me to refute about?

No, my argument is that Lucas hired a guy to create rules for his work. According to the rules C Canon is fact so long as it doesn't contradict the movies which are the highest form of Canon. There is NO contradiction in the movies regarding Sidious being more powerful than Yoda. Example, in Dark Empire he returns in a younger more powerful body. Tell me, by the movies, how it proves that cannot and does not occur?

Yes. My argument is that the book says so. Nothing contradicts the material in the book. The book is C - Canon. C Canon is still Canon.

No, my argument is that Lucas hired a guy to create rules for his work. According to the rules C Canon is fact so long as it doesn't contradict the movies which are the highest form of Canon. There is NO contradiction in the movies regarding Sidious being more powerful than Yoda. Example, in Dark Empire he returns in a younger more powerful body. Tell me, by the movies, how it proves that cannot and does not occur?

The key to your missunderstanding is in this paragraph:

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

If you don't get it, have a good day.

You have my permission to mumble as much as you need to.

The key to your missunderstanding is in this paragraph:

 

 

 

If you don't get it, have a good day.

 

You have my permission to mumble as much as you need to.

What contradiction in the movies is there? Sidious does not die during the movies. Lol, you're evading my question and dodging. "I'm going to throw this out here and claim you just don't understand." another tactic people use when they have no argument.

This is the second time we've debated where you haven't backed up any of your points while resorting to Ad hominem and Strawman arguments before running off. You also get extremely heated and seem to take things a little too personally.

What contradiction in the movies is there? Sidious does not die during the movies. Lol, you're evading my question and dodging. "I'm going to throw this out here and claim you just don't understand." another tactic people use when they have no argument.

Sigh... Okay. One last time.

I said EXACTLY THIS:

Then you mumbled lots of words and bla bla, I'm just quoting the main points

And then comes the actual book quotes, wich takes us to:

This is not talking about a lightsaber battle or a force clash.

This is way beyond that, and it's the reason why Yoda left.

The battle was lost for the entire Jedi Order, not just Yoda. They were now enemies of the Republic because they did not see through the corruption of the Senate and the Canciller. They lost because he did not know if Obi Wan would win vs Anakin. He lost because if he had died, so would hope.

He lost because the Sith went way ahead of a battle; they corrupted the very foundation of the allies of the Jedi Order, they corrupted the Justice system and ultimately, they corrupted the Jedi Order itself.

Do you really simplify your OWN quotes on something as dumb as "Palpatine is so pr0 with a lightsaber oMg he pwnz Yoda anytime n00b!".

Oh the humanity and the reading comprehension...

This is the second time we've debated where you haven't backed up any of your points while resorting to Ad hominem and Strawman arguments before running off. You also get extremely heated and seem to take things a little too personally.

And please, enough of that. Every post you made in this thread if half an argument, half of your intents of confrontation with me.

I don't care, and I will not follow that. Just cease.

Sigh... Okay. One last time.

 

I said EXACTLY THIS:

 

 

 

 

 

Then you mumbled lots of words and bla bla, I'm just quoting the main points

 

 

 

 

 

And then comes the actual book quotes, wich takes us to:

 

 

 

 

 

This is not talking about a lightsaber battle or a force clash.

 

This is way beyond that, and it's the reason why Yoda left.

 

The battle was a lost for all the Jedi Order, not just Yoda. They were now enemies of the Republic because they did not see through the corruption of the Senate and the Canciller. They lost because he did not know if Obi Wan would win vs Anakin. He lost because if he had died, so would hope.

 

He lost because the Sith went way ahead of a battle; they corrupted the very foundation of the allies of the Jedi Order, they corrupted the Justice system and ultimately, they corrupted the Jedi Order itself.

 

Do you really simplify your OWN quotes on something as dumb as "Palpatine is so pr0 with a lightsaber oMg he pwnz Yoda anytime n00b!".

 

Oh the humanity and the reading comprehension...

You fail to understand the implications of that. Sidious at that point in time was the only Sith left. Yes the entire Jedi order lost and it's bigger than just their duel but in the end the only one left was Sidious. Take Yoda's quote at the end "If I fall here.." he believes there's a good chance that he'd fall if he kept fighting. He knew he couldn't beat him. You seem unable to realize or even admit this.

Not to mention I didn't quote just the novelization either. I also brought up Dark Empire. In which the Emperor returned in a far more powerful younger body through the essence transfer technique. In a younger body he was capable of releasing force storms capable of destroying entire Star Fleets. If Yoda struggled with the version of Sidious he fought at the end of Revenge of the Sith there's absolutely no way he'd defeat the Emperor in his later incarnation.

Then I quoted Leland Chee. Leland Chee stated that the Emperor "proved too powerful to defeat." It states that the "Sith bested him." what you don't realize is that I posted more than one source for a reason. For some reason you decide to only refute one of the sources instead of all of them but once again even in the novelization quote.. if Sidious could have been defeated there'd be no more Sith. Yoda knew there was only two. He states it in the phantom menance.

As for the end of your post what are you talking about? I have no desire to be confrontational with you for absolutely no reason. You disagreed with me. You have before. We have debated this before. It ended up the same way then as it has now. Except I have not once insulted you. I have, not once, attacked you for your views. Even when you attack me.

he believes there's a good chance that he'd fall if he kept fighting. He knew he couldn't beat him. You seem unable to realize or even admit this..

I can't find any of this on your precious quotes.

You assume, the same way I do.

I can't find any of this on your precious quotes.

 

You assume, the same way I do.

just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

I bolded where it states that.

Then there's Leland Chee's quote..

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa

But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

 

I bolded where it states that.

Fixed it for you.

Fixed it for you.

Yet he obviously believed there'd be a good chance he'd die if he came to that line of thought. There's also Leland Chee's quote. There's also the Dark Empire comics. Which you continuously ignore as well.

Yet he obviously believed there'd be a good chance he'd die if he came to that line of thought. There's also Leland Chee's quote. There's also the Dark Empire comics. Which you continuously ignore as well.

I'm not ignoring them. I just don't feel the need to individually quote every one of them.

Fact is, everything goes around a possibility.

Was there a good chance that Yoda would have lost? Maybe.

If this could happen or not, is beyond you, me and any other book writer, simply because Yoda left before we could figure it out.

This is not the only example of a Sith vs Jedi fight where the apparently strongest one loses vs the apparently weakest one.

Things are not that simple.

I'm not ignoring them. I just don't feel the need to individually quote every one of them.

 

Fact is, everything goes around a possibility.

 

Was there a good chance that Yoda would have lost? Maybe.

 

If this could happen or not, is beyond you, me and any other book writer, simply because Yoda left before we could figure it out.

You can't use the lack of evidence to formulate evidence. Sidious was capable of destroying planets in Dark Empire. We have never seen Yoda countering or being able to withstand such attacks. He was knocked back from Sidious force lightning alone. You can make the argument in that specific duel he might have been able to win but it doesn't matter.

Even if he had killed sidious. He wouldn't have died permanently. When I claim Sidious is more powerful than Yoda I'm not only talking about what we see in the movies. I'm talking about everything he can do and from what we know about him in the EU if Yoda cut him down he'd merely switch to a younger healthier body.

Also I understand where you're coming from but that's also how the rules of Canon are layed out. Leland Chee claimed that Sidious proved too powerful to defeat. In his quote he stated that Yoda was defeated and directly confronting Sidious is doomed to failure. Considering the movies do not contradict with this statement, given the rules of Canon, we have to take his word for it.

Now if Lucas comes back and adds scenes that contradict those statements? Then yes. That'd overwrite anything Chee states. However, it wouldn't change my opinion on the matter. Sidious reborn is completely over the top and I don't see any possible way of Yoda competing with that.

Also while sometimes the weaker can beat the stronger there's a point where someone is too strong. Imean, Luke currently is at a level where most Jedi masters in previous era won't be able to do anything to him. I mean, he's been known to just point and hold down powerful force users with no effort with them being unable to move.

When I use the word power. I mean power. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Being able to survive after death. Destroy entire starfleets (Luke says it'd be able to destroy a planet) with a wormhole. Teleport Luke from one planet straight to his side mind wipe billions of people at once. Control the minds of billions. Able to siphon the life out of billion to empower himself.. these are some of the over the top things Sidious reborn could do and that's not even half of it.

Does it sound retardedly ridiculous? Yes. It does because it is. If Yoda had that kind of power it'd detract from the movies I'd think and look more like something on DBZ. Even worse.. Dark Empire was Lucas' idea.