Hello.

Just recently I've been noticing this more and more. Its's players quite literally just sitting in stealth next to you listening to the conversation. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind someone who's curious, perhaps wants to learn a bit about RP without interrupting, but sadly I haven't experienced that.

For the most part it's been players who sit there without a word for around half hour, only to use the information later in their RP - Am I the only one who disagrees with this?

I know full well that we're in a universe that allows people to have some kind of cloaking device in some form, without being too far fetched.

Has anyone else experienced this? There must be other members of the RP community that discredit this kind of approach.

What you're dealing with here is probably someone who doesn't know how to role-play espionage or eavesdropping. If I see a group of players in RP I find interesting, I'll post the fact they're being observed and then do just that.

It's not necessarily bad form to do that without saying so, but it depends on what information they decide to use. It takes some discretion on the player's part to know what their character would readily divine from conversation and what is left unheard.

You can also use that to your advantage. If you know someone is watching try intentionally whispering to whomever your character is speaking. Have your character lean in and whisper something, and then actually whisper that to the player so the observer has no clue what is being said. Sometimes that can make things interesting.

Otherwise, if a player is obviously godmoding a conversation, I'd let them know OOC. If it continues exile them to ignore land.

Hello.

 

Just recently I've been noticing this more and more. Its's players quite literally just sitting in stealth next to you listening to the conversation. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind someone who's curious, perhaps wants to learn a bit about RP without interrupting, but sadly I haven't experienced that.

 

I do this all the time. I OOC eavesdrop through stealth but really only on people I know. If I don't know you and I'm doing it, I'm probably IC.

I did this and the next part of your post that I didn't quote on my rogue in WoW. She typically was a stalker who was too scared to say hello and the only time she would pop out was when she worked up enough courage to.

I never RPed saying 'someone is following you' with similarly typed out emotes. I'd thought of it but never knew exactly what to put down, and most of the time didn't have enough time to say it since a lot of the people I watched were sometimes moving, and the /say /em radius was small. (One of the reasons why I say the /say range here in TOR is just fine) I also typically assume that if I emote something while I'm around that someone is going to immediately RP out noticing me. :/

That was most likely the wrong way of going about things. I don't actively RP out stealth with my new character in TOR though, unless she's trying to scare someone.

My personal opinion is that if you're talking in say, expect you might be heard. I don't expect anyone to ask permission to hear me. And I won't ask permission to see or hear what I darn well did see and hear.

But - I also don't go for using the stealth mechanic when eavesdropping. If you're going to listen in on someone, then try to hide behind an object, and they need to have a fair chance of noticing you. If they always notice you right away and refuse to play - then you at least have some new information. You can either try to work with them to find a compatible middle ground of RP, or take your RP business elsewhere.

The OP's situation of having someone use the stealth mechanic in a way that is unrealistic and a bit one-sided, and then to use that information in RP - I don't know. I really don't like an environment where there needs to be too much ooc negotiation, but maybe it would be worth discussing it with that person. Work out an agreement whether it's asking permission, RPing some kind of emote to give you a heads up, or just not using the stealth mechanic.

My personal opinion is, that you shouldn't need to ask permission for anything, nor should there need to be ooc communication. If someone is stealthing and you see them then it should be as simple as your character being able to see them and then calling them out on it.

Stealth generators exist in SW but that doesn't mean they always have to work perfectly.

I think a lot depends on who you are RPing with and what rules apply.

Personally, I see this as metagaming. Unless an Rper has specifically sent a tell requesting to use this game mechanic, then I wouldn't accept anything they 'overheard' in my RP.

However, others have different rules and if it's okay with them, then fair enough.

I dislike stealth RP for the fact that people constantly abuse it. It's something that's been a problem in just about any game with any kind of stealth.

The thing is that people who stealth and believe that they shouldn't emote that they're nearby (of course a decent roleplayer wouldn't suddenly bust someone for emoting something akin to /e is stealthing nearby) is the fact that they full-out assume that your character has taken no means to protect themselves from this kind of espionage. Especially people working with illegal stuff would most likely realize that espionage is a potential threat, and seek to avoid it - Perhaps through defensive measures.

Where there is one technique to stealth, there are also techniques to figure out that someone is using stealth nearby and when a roleplayer simply does nothing in emotes to state that they're there, you rob the other characters from being able to react on it if it so happened to be something they were trying to guard themselves against. This actually turns it into something near a poweremote, but also most certainly if you are never noticed oocly either, then how can you tell that this information you gained isn't metagamed information? What proof would there be when no one saw you there? Well, yes, you yourself could take screenshots - but you'll most likely end up in a situation where someone accuses you of metagaming and that really is not a comfortable situation to be in regardless of your own innocence.

Another thing is that people can't always know the situation they stealth into, if they for example spot roleplay that's been going on for a while and then stealth into it. One should at the minimum assume that there are doors to almost every doorway, and that these doors can be opened and closed - such is usually emoted when someone enters a room, but otherwise can't be seen by someone who finds the roleplayers at a later point.

Don't just assume that you can walk into every room around.

And most importantly, if people through whispers tell you that stealthing and listening in - in the situation that you wish to listen in to - is impossible, then respect their words. Some RP aren't meant to be heard by everyone (like explaining details of a plot) and that should be respected if it's obvious they've gone out of their ways to hide - and not just standing in the most populated cantina on the planet.

 

For the most part it's been players who sit there without a word for around half hour, only to use the information later in their RP - Am I the only one who disagrees with this?

Why aren't your characters noticing them? You're not just guessing about these people, so obviously they aren't masters of subterfuge. If they get caught, they get caught. (Alternatively, your character doesn't touch on sensitive information.)

If you aren't catching them, resort to what everyone's character would do in this situation: be cautious. Only discuss vital information in secure places. Use the mail system. Or codes. The setting here is wartime secrecy and power struggles, caution is not inappropriate.

All of this sounds like a possible IC fix. The only way this is an OOC problem is if these stealthers are gleaning information about you based solely on the /who panel, or something like that.

Edit: yeah what Jade said is right. Stealth generators aren't perfect, obviously. If they were, these folks wouldn't need to sneak around. Clearly they are fallible, so don't hesitate to ICly catch or notice them.

I am 100% opposed to announcing my presence if I am eavesdropping through use of stealth in a roleplay scene. I have never had a good experience with it. One of the posters above kind of makes the point for stealthers as to why you shouldn't announce your presence.

Taking steps to avoid being overheard translates to having a conversation on board your ship in orbit, or someplace that no one can get to easily. You can't take precautions (IE: things like Trooper stealth detection droids) without looking guilty or at the very least drawing suspicion to yourself.

Asking for permission to eavesdrop on your conversation is opening the door for metagaming. I don't care if you are the best roleplayer in the world, if you know someone is listening to your conversation that will impact your RP in some way, shape, for form, whether it is revealing more key information or withholding information that you might have otherwise not been inclined to withhold. It is human nature.

You can argue that all you want, but the truth is, if it doesn't matter, why do I need to tell you that I am there in the first place? How am I expected to surprise you if I am telling you I am eavesdropping on a conversation you are having? Where is the immersion? Where are the consequences for having a conversation in a place you thought was secure but it turns out it wasn't?

For the most part it's been players who sit there without a word for around half hour, only to use the information later in their RP - Am I the only one who disagrees with this?

To me, that depends to what extent the person wants to use the information in their RP. I think a certain amount of OOC dialogue is necessary if there's an overarching plot going on where group A uses the information against group B. I don't mean in terms of idle gossip or rumour-mongering, but rather in concrete plot actions.

Why do I need to tell you that I am there in the first place?

If you overhear, for example, that my character is planning to assassinate Darth Bob, and you then go and muck up the works of what might be a plot that's already planned out with Darth Bob -- it might warrant some OOC discussion.

That said, your very presence there isn't offensive; it's what you do with the information that matters. If you know Darth Bob is going to have an assassination attempt put on him and you show up at the time and place and start emoting about your defense of Darth Bob without speaking either to Darth Bob's player or to the assassin's player -- in most circumstances it's a little jarring and often is considered rude. It's not metagaming and it's not godmoding, but you probably won't get a good OOC reception from people if that's the sort of stuff you intend to do with your stealthed eavesdropping.

TL;DR -- If you want to take an active part in plots through the info you've gathered whilst stealthing, you sure as hell ought to be talking to your fellow players OOCly. It's the polite and respectful thing to do.

TL;DR -- If you want to take an active part in plots through the info you've gathered whilst stealthing, you sure as hell ought to be talking to your fellow players OOCly. It's the polite and respectful thing to do.

I figure if you're discussing something sensitive out in the open then you expect and intend for someone to take and use that information. That's what makes intense dynamic RP in my opinion.

Heck, I've gone with co-conspirators to a place where people could easily eavesdrop and once I noticed people around, deliberately dropped bits for spies to hear and act on or sell. That's the way I expect dynamic RP to work.

I've been the spy, the one spied on, and the one hiring the spies or buying their information, and at no point have I asked or been asked "is it ok if I spy on you?"

Although I have also learned that stealth mechanics breed distrust, and aren't even necessary really. I'm convinced that with enough character setup over time, you can learn more hiding in plain sight than you can using the stealth mechanic.

 

TL;DR -- If you want to take an active part in plots through the info you've gathered whilst stealthing, you sure as hell ought to be talking to your fellow players OOCly. It's the polite and respectful thing to do.

Usually you would have to be 'in the know' on an OOC level just to even get RP with Darth Bob. This is not a jab at you in particular, but it really grinds on me how (some) people expect you to discuss every little detail OOC beforehand. Where's the immersion? Where's the feeling that you're not in some private chatroom but instead a living, breathing world?

It's a bit off topic now but why should you have to ask permission just to talk to someone? I've had this happen before, where friends of my character discuss publicly of something going on then get oocly mad because 'things didn't go as planned' if someone they know shows up.

If people want everything to go as planned, then they may want to stick to fanfiction writing.

To me, that depends to what extent the person wants to use the information in their RP. I think a certain amount of OOC dialogue is necessary if there's an overarching plot going on where group A uses the information against group B. I don't mean in terms of idle gossip or rumour-mongering, but rather in concrete plot actions.

So basically what you're saying is if we stumble upon a gem as opposed to idle gossip we can't use for anything... we have to get permission to use it first.

That doesn't seem wrong to you?

 

That said, your very presence there isn't offensive; it's what you do with the information that matters. If you know Darth Bob is going to have an assassination attempt put on him and you show up at the time and place and start emoting about your defense of Darth Bob without speaking either to Darth Bob's player or to the assassin's player -- in most circumstances it's a little jarring and often is considered rude. It's not metagaming and it's not godmoding, but you probably won't get a good OOC reception from people if that's the sort of stuff you intend to do with your stealthed eavesdropping.

 

TL;DR -- If you want to take an active part in plots through the info you've gathered whilst stealthing, you sure as hell ought to be talking to your fellow players OOCly. It's the polite and respectful thing to do.

See, this is exactly what is wrong with the RP community these days. Nothing is organic anymore, it is all planned to the point of being practically metagaming. You are actively roleplaying in the open world, people are overhearing what your character is saying, but your 'private' storyline is so important that I have to have my character act in a way that isn't faithful to him (IE: Disregard overhearing your character talking about killing someone and not warn them/take advantage of the situation) or just outright retcon an entire conversation I overheard (effectively making it so nothing was accomplished that day/night and my time was wasted) just so you can have a scenario play out the way you wanted it to be played.

That is sandbox RP. If you want to RP in a sandbox you shouldn't do it on a public roleplay server in an MMO with hundreds of other players around you, you should either get an IRC channel or do it on MSN.

Usually you would have to be 'in the know' on an OOC level just to even get RP with Darth Bob. This is not a jab at you in particular, but it really grinds on me how (some) people expect you to discuss every little detail OOC beforehand. Where's the immersion? Where's the feeling that you're not in some private chatroom but instead a living, breathing world?

 

It's a bit off topic now but why should you have to ask permission just to talk to someone? I've had this happen before, where friends of my character discuss publicly of something going on then get oocly mad because 'things didn't go as planned' if someone they know shows up.

 

If people want everything to go as planned, then they may want to stick to fanfiction writing.

Exactly this. People are so invested in their own RP that they forget they are a part of a larger world and get upset when things don't go the way they envisioned things because to them their own RP and storylines is so much more important than everyone elses. RP isn't natural if you have to ask for permission to do everything. There are some things I can certainly see asking consent for. Spilling the beans about your secret meeting is not one of them.

If you don't want to be apart of that world, take all the necessary steps to keep your RP completely private.

It's not so much the stealth mechanic itself, as how the RPer goes about it. In theory, I wouldn't mind someone stealthing, but when this has happened in the past, the conversation was picked up from an unrealistic distance. Once, it was from outside the cantina and along the road! This has made me far more wary.

Other guilds and communities have different approaches and no way is right or wrong, as long as it's not breaking the three sins of RP.

That is sandbox RP. If you want to RP in a sandbox you shouldn't do it on a public roleplay server in an MMO with hundreds of other players around you, you should either get an IRC channel or do it on MSN.

I'm not sure if I would call it sandbox but it is something that I would expect to see on msn. MSN is a place where there is no visible world. You can create whatever you want with it but is also more private. The main draw, of using mmo style RP, I would think, is the possibility of more immersive, slightly less story based RP that circles around existing in a world that, depending on your server, feels more like a world with lots of different factors.

Hello.

 

Just recently I've been noticing this more and more. Its's players quite literally just sitting in stealth next to you listening to the conversation. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind someone who's curious, perhaps wants to learn a bit about RP without interrupting, but sadly I haven't experienced that.

 

For the most part it's been players who sit there without a word for around half hour, only to use the information later in their RP - Am I the only one who disagrees with this?

 

I know full well that we're in a universe that allows people to have some kind of cloaking device in some form, without being too far fetched.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? There must be other members of the RP community that discredit this kind of approach.

If you are being eavesdropped on, move your conversation to a more private setting like your ship. Any conversation overheard is fair game for espionage in my book. MMO's are alot like LARP games, its a shame most people dont recognize the similarities.

Real time, real consequences, real role-play are words to play by.

The game gets awfully boring if you don't let things slip out now and then.

It's sort of like playing a character that never makes mistakes. We're not going for absolute realism here; we're going for what makes a good story and involves others.

Letting people overhear things facilitates RP. And most of the time, they won't do anything about it -anyway-.

I'm fully aware that I could simply move some discussions to a ship, flashpoint, ops chat, use mail or combinations of them to pull off that 'private' conversation. It's the principal.

What many people don't consider is the actual setting.

If I'm stood in the middle of an Imperial building - that has machinery inside, perhaps other people talking, droids walking around.. Then someone pressed up against the wall outside (taking advantage of the large /say range) isn't going to be able to hear a thing.

That's the first thing.

For me. Roleplay is all about the people around you, not you - yourself. I have no problem at all for someone to pull me up over something they'd heard ICly. I do however see it as a little .. insulting perhaps, to be be in an "empty" room with someone hid in stealth either just outside, or just inside.

That to me doesn't seem like good roleplay. Like someone earlier said, you're essentially power emoting. Forcing that situation on the characters there by saying "I am here, and I'm going to use this information."

At least how I feel.

I'm not sure if I would call it sandbox but it is something that I would expect to see on msn. MSN is a place where there is no visible world. You can create whatever you want with it but is also more private. The main draw, of using mmo style RP, I would think, is the possibility of more immersive, slightly less story based RP that circles around existing in a world that, depending on your server, feels more like a world with lots of different factors.

I feel like a sandbox works perfectly. We have a big old park (SWTOR) and the person I quoted took over the sandbox. He/she is deciding who can play in the sandbox (Giving permission to have actually been able to hear what was over heard), ensuring that their storyline goes off without a hitch (Telling you what you were allowed to have overheard), and deciding whether or not you can act on it (By way of being able to warn Darth Bob, or having to sit on the information/pretend you didn't heard it so that his/her storyline can go off without any complications). That's a sandbox and it is boring.

RP shouldn't be about winning, or OOCly manipulating/covering all angles to make sure you achieve whatever goal you want to achieve. RP should be about interacting with other players, reacting to their characters and what they bring to the world, and playing your character how it would be played in the world you are choosing to RP in. In this case, that world is the Star Wars universe where, I'm not sure if you've noticed or not, things don't always go according to plan.

That's why I like to provide the MSN alternative, because it can be your own little world that you built and shaped where people with stealthing devices go deaf while the stealth field is active.

In the Old Republic, people can spy when they are stealthed.

For me. Roleplay is all about the people around you, not you - yourself. I have no problem at all for someone to pull me up over something they'd heard ICly. I do however see it as a little .. insulting perhaps, to be be in an "empty" room with someone hid in stealth either just outside, or just inside.

 

That to me doesn't seem like good roleplay. Like someone earlier said, you're essentially power emoting. Forcing that situation on the characters there by saying "I am here, and I'm going to use this information."

 

At least how I feel.

Insulting how? You're insulted that someone thought your character might have something to say that could be exploited for personal gain, so they stuck around and listened?

And I can just as easily argue that having to announce my presence so you can watch what you are saying, or know that I am there, is not good roleplay.

This thread shows the huge gulf between simulationist RPers and narrativist RPers.

Simulationists are the 'if I heard it, I heard it, and I can use it'

Narrativists are 'I am the GM for my character. If you want to spy, talk to me OOC first and we'll include it in the story'.

Trying to RP with people of the other style just leads to drama, in my experience. The simulationists think the narrativists are trying to avoid consequences by godmoding, and the narrativists think the simulationists are trying to dictate the story by godmoding (broad generalisation, but it gives you the idea)

I'm a narrativist RPer myself, and this doesn't mean I always want to win. Nor does it mean I always want my char to succeed. But it does mean I want some input in how they fail. This doesn't mean a full script, just a general idea of what's going on and who's involved.

This thread shows the huge gulf between simulationist RPers and narrativist RPers.

 

Simulationists are the 'if I heard it, I heard it, and I can use it'

 

Narrativists are 'I am the GM for my character. If you want to spy, talk to me OOC first and we'll include it in the story'.

 

Trying to RP with people of the other style just leads to drama, in my experience. The simulationists think the narrativists are trying to avoid consequences by godmoding, and the narrativists think the simulationists are trying to dictate the story by godmoding (broad generalisation, but it gives you the idea)

 

I'm a narrativist RPer myself, and this doesn't mean I always want to win. Nor does it mean I always want my char to succeed. But it does mean I want some input in how they fail. This doesn't mean a full script, just a general idea of what's going on and who's involved.

Whatever style of RP you call it, I agree that drama often arises when different styles clash.

Coming to the forums for advice is often a double-edged sword as people give different advice, relevent to their own preferred style and can further confuse a new RPer. I'm guilty of that myself.

Or the thread just ends in a heated discussion as differing opinions refuse to even agree to disagree

This discussion comes up on every MMO I have ever played. Usually about once per year.

As another responder argued earlier, all of this confusion and drama can be avoided by simply being a little flexible, and having an OOC discussion with the parties involved.

BE POLITE - don't rules lawyer, even if you think you're in the right - and people will thank you for it. RP is not a game where you should be out to "win".

And drama is usually simply worth avoiding.

That is the biggest problem with spontaneous RP these days, it isn't spontaneous anymore. RP has to be discussed oocly first or planned out to the point where it is 'all right for both parties involved.'

If you want to give input on how your character is going to fail, you are dictating how the RP is going to occur on an OOC level which in effect is God moding. You as a player are deciding what the consequences for your character's actions are going to be, and in some extreme cases whether or not there will be consequences because 'oh, no, your character didn't hear that.'

One type of RPer says "Damn, I probably shouldn't have been expressing my anti-imperial opinions in this cantina because now some shmuck who was listening in on me went and got his Imp friends" while another says "Oh, no, what's going on? Wait, let me message this guy and get the details. Pause everyone till I find out what's going on and we can work this out!" Which one is more true to roleplay in an MMO with thousands of other players? RP should be resolved ICly.

You can call that narrative RP, bubble RP, I'm the author of my story RP, dress it up in a pretty dress and throw a bow on top of it, but the fact of the matter is you aren't just controlling your character's RP at that point, you are shaping the actions of the people around you by telling them how they can have their character's act. You aren't just narrating your own RP at that point.

With that said, sure, do what Dutchess said and be flexible. Talk to people OOCly, let them know what you are planning so they can prepare for it. There is nothing like prepping your story ICly for something you only know OOCly. Who likes surprises? No one.

My boyfriend would agree with you, Yuuj. He always does things ICly first, and runs with what most people throw him most of the time.

However, he's not the sort to be bothered OOCly by most stuff, so even if someone uses something "against" him, he'll find a way to make it work. It may affect how much trust is afforded that individual down the road - but usually, awkward situations are salvageable.

I'm always hyper-concerned I might offend someone, so I tend to send out those little tells beforehand.

And yea, some people really hate surprises. To each their own, though. IMNSHO, the whole point of MMO rp (since it lacks a GM to create drama) is to learn to catch the curveballs thrown at you by other players.