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Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
07.26.2017 , 09:59 AM | #461
Quote: Originally Posted by realleaftea View Post
What BioWare did was to adjust classes in accordance to their stated DPS goal. And the goal was to equal out the effective DPS among all classes without changing the average DPS. That's why they buffed the DPS of Pyrotech, Hatred & Madness and left the DPS of Adv. Prototype, Marksmanship, Lightning, Deception, Vengeance, Rage and Annihilation untouched.
Ok let's look at changes real quick:
- Viru lost 1k DPS
- Engi lost 700 DPS
- IO lost 500 DPS
- Arsenal lost 1,2k DPS
- Hatred gained 400 DPS (most sins still use deception on every fight cause buff not big enough)
- Madness gained 300 DPS
- Pyro gained 600 DPS (AP is still the place to go, this might be a buff for a few fights but not an overall buff)

Please explain to me how this is not a overall nerf to DPS in general.

Also, realistically, there is no way the Carnage and Lethality changes aren't nerfs. And both will most likely be substantial. Concealment, pretty sure it will be a small nerf, but I might be wrong. Either way it should be small. Fury will have a decent buff, but not big enough to compensate the carnage nerf in a NiM environment.

Also, yes my post has a personal tone to it, because I talk about what I experiment and see in the game. Yes I am biased and will cry out more when the specs my group plays are affected, because I can see the consequences more. Changes an be very abstract until you actually experiment them. In my group we have a merc DPS, a sniper DPS, a mara DPS and an op DPS. 5.3 hit us hard, and 5.4 will hit us again. But I know this isn't only me it affects, a lot more groups are getting hit because mara, merc and sniper are the three most popular DPS classes right now.
Nemio the Acceptable Player

realleaftea's Avatar


realleaftea
07.26.2017 , 10:08 AM | #462
Quote: Originally Posted by JakRoanin View Post
Belittling people is not exercising free speech, it's just wrong!
Free speech isn't about what's right or wrong. And I'm not saying inappropriate manners are worth striving for, but it's foolish to believe every post will be objective, elaborate and exilarating. And to quote some good advises:

Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
I really liked the outline of the Criticism article and for those who haven't had a chance to read it, here's the bullets:
  • Everyone who dislikes your work is right
  • The criticism that is useful is that which helps you do it better
  • Nothing’s perfect
  • You often have to choose between your ideals and your message
  • You have to dig to get the gold
  • Good feedback is detailed
  • People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous
  • Someone asked for feedback will always find something wrong
  • Good work may not have an audience
  • Any feedback that comes with suggestions for improvement is awesome
  • If you agree with the criticism, say “thank you.” If you disagree, say “fair enough,” and “thank you"
  • You are not your work

realleaftea's Avatar


realleaftea
07.26.2017 , 11:46 AM | #463
Quote: Originally Posted by Eloi_BG View Post
Ok let's look at changes real quick:
- Viru lost 1k DPS
- Engi lost 700 DPS
- IO lost 500 DPS
- Arsenal lost 1,2k DPS
- Hatred gained 400 DPS (most sins still use deception on every fight cause buff not big enough)
- Madness gained 300 DPS
- Pyro gained 600 DPS (AP is still the place to go, this might be a buff for a few fights but not an overall buff)

Please explain to me how this is not a overall nerf to DPS in general.
How did you get these numbers? If I use parsely:

Virulence
1.5m dummy: 9404.63 => 9169.6 = a loss of 235 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9697.87 => 9436.25 = a loss of 262 DPS

Engineering
1.5m dummy: 9515.19 => 9183.66 = a loss of 332 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9576.95 => 9346.64 = a loss of 230 DPS

Innovative Ordnance
1.5m dummy: 9449.39 => 9153.33 = a loss of 296 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9707.62 => 9404.17 = a loss of 303 DPS

Arsenal
1.5m dummy: 9103.3 => 8703.4 = a loss of 400 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9052.59 => 8525.02 = a loss of 527 DPS

And so on. But that aside, when I referrring to 'the average DPS', I wasn't even pointing to the individual dummy results, but to the fact that BioWare didn't nerf the gear or anything else that would result in a lower DPS for all classes. In other words, as long as you consider the average across all class constellations, there isn't a negative impact. If your team consists of Sorcerers and Pyrotechs things get easier, if your team consists of Mandos and non-Marksman snipers, it might get more difficult.

And as I've said, only 4 out of 18 sepcs were nerfed with 5.3, all of them had an above average DPS ranking and 5.4 will only affect the 3 remaining top scoring specs.

So sure, if you're one of those guys who only plays a FOTM class and your operation team only consists of the most broken classes, you will experience a certain DPS loss. But if you're willing and capable to extend your point of view onto every other team that might not consist of FOTM classes, there's absolutely no reason that would justify that an overperforming team complains that BioWare did fix classes with 5.3, tried to make sure that every class has a chance to shine and will continue to balance the remaining classes in 5.4.

Quote:
Also, realistically, there is no way the Carnage and Lethality changes aren't nerfs. And both will most likely be substantial. Concealment, pretty sure it will be a small nerf, but I might be wrong. Either way it should be small. Fury will have a decent buff, but not big enough to compensate the carnage nerf in a NiM environment.
This only has an impact on teams with a Carnage or Lethality player. And once again, BioWare just plans to lower their DPS to the score every other spec of the same category has, in order to give every spec a chance.

Quote:
Also, yes my post has a personal tone to it, because I talk about what I experiment and see in the game. Yes I am biased and will cry out more when the specs my group plays are affected, because I can see the consequences more.

Changes can be very abstract until you actually experience them. In my group we have a merc DPS, a sniper DPS, a mara DPS and an op DPS. 5.3 hit us hard, and 5.4 will hit us again. But I know this isn't only me it affects, a lot more groups are getting hit because mara, merc and sniper are the three most popular DPS classes right now.
No, what you did was to put your selfish interest above the interest of others.

You didn't state that your team consists of the most overperforming classes, you didn't state that "what many are saying everywhere on forums" meant only those teams who also consist purely out of FOTM classes, you didn't state that nerfing Lethality and Carnage would be fair in regard of a class-to-class balance, you didn't state that you want other classes to have it as easy as your team had it before 5.3 and you didn't state that the following class balances will be fine as long as the NIM operations would be easier to master (f.e. by making NIM crystals easier to craft).

What you did was to state that BioWare should stop in midst of the class balance because it would affect you and your team.

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
07.26.2017 , 01:10 PM | #464
Quote: Originally Posted by realleaftea View Post
Snip
For people that are not realleaftee, TLDR at the end

I guess you didn't understand my point, but first I'll answer your post:
First point, I did an average of the top parses of each spec on Live and 5.2.2 on parsely. Also from my personal experience (I play both merc and sniper) those numbers seemed accurate so I didn't dig deeper. I have no idea where your numbers come from on parsely tho, but they do help me see that I shouldn't take your opinion seriously cause all the serious raiders I have talked to since 5.3 seem to agree with those numbers I posted.

Second point, the average means sum divided by cardinality. So looking at my numbers that means that the average DPS numbers went down by 2.1k/18 specs = 117 DPS. So yes the average went down. All that is kinda irrelevant (it would be relevant if groups had like 20 DPS in them and an average meant something, but with 4 it doesn't), but I just wanted to show what you are saying is false.

Third point, I would very much like to meet a team progging nim fights for the first time composed of only PT and sorc DPS.

Fourth point, apart from arsenal, which was a bit too good, none of the classes were broken (we are talking PVE here, so who cares about "three lives"), especially since they fixed reflects. Getting NiM clears was still more challenging than in 4.0 (or so I heard, I didn't do much NiM in 4.0), and in a good place. Yes some people killed all NiM bosses in the first two weeks, but you should read Mac's post about it, and know it's not difficulty that was the issue there.

Fifth point, I love how you say "this only impacts [something]". Mercs, snipers, maras, operatives are just like 72% of the DPS in ops now according to ixparse. Well maybe more like only 65% are affected cause I guess a few mara don't play carnage at all and a few snipers only play MM. Still.

Sixth point: "if you're one of those guys who only plays a FOTM". Lol.

Seventh point, let's go through the part where you say all the stuff I didn't say. I am sorry your capacity to understand someone else's post is not very good, but I'll walk you through it. There is a bunch of stuff I didn't say because they aren't relevant to my point. For example, I didn't say "I killed Arcann in KOTET cause I hate him". I am all for class balance and their methodology (range vs melee, burst vs sustained) makes sense. However, if you took the time to read other posts I referred too (cause I don't like repeating the same details everywhere), you'd realize I had a few suggestions, like reducing the magic 5%, and have a DPS target that is higher that what they are aiming for (5.3 nerfs should have been smaller, and buffs bigger).
But what seemed to be totally out of your grasp, and I'm sorry I didn't spell it out well enough and (wrongly) assumed people would understand is: "Your DPS target is too low and you have to bring classes down too much". Oh wait, I am quoting myself, guess I did spell it out. I am not asking for them to leave classes in the unbalanced state they are now, I am asking them to revert part of the changes and balance them around a higher DPS target. From decent suggestions other people have posted since my post, I have come to realize reducing the HP of some bosses would also be a way to make it work.

TLDR Basically me quoting myself about the fact the DPS target is too low for NiM content and the nerfs are destroying the progression some groups made. If you wanted NiM to be harder don't do it 6+ months into an update. Also me telling realleaftea his comments are irrelevant, he didn't understand at all what I meant and he invented some intentions I didn't have (like saying I didn't want fair class balance).
Nemio the Acceptable Player

notanjelika's Avatar


notanjelika
07.26.2017 , 01:55 PM | #465
Quote: Originally Posted by SilverStarSeaker View Post
If you are having any trouble with the class missions at all then 100% you are the problem and not your class. You should be able to basic attack your way through that.
Yes lol, if you have your companion set to heals there isnt really any excuse for dying even once from a class mission other than being bad. Which isnt a bad thing btw, class content is what you do when you first start the game so it's fine to not be the best player when you do it but don't try and blame it on your class or the 5% less damage it does after a nerf.
I think my problem is panic. JC went smooth, BH not so much. As a BH i kinda lost it, ran around like a chicken, pressed the wrong button, got myself and Mako killed in heroics.. guess is not for me, if i can do a ranged class, doesn't mean i can do the other ranged classes too. Thanks for the advice tho, i'll try again.
Please bring back Jaesa Willsaam

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
07.26.2017 , 05:47 PM | #466
Quote: Originally Posted by JakRoanin View Post
Belittling people is not exercising free speech, it's just wrong!
Legally speaking, Free speech only applies to the government cannot impinge on your right of expression, and even only if that speech does not present the possibility of inciting or leading to physical danger or harm[ That's why you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater if there isn't one because that could lead to injury of person or persons in direct result of their attempting to flee the 'fire". ergo Criminal mischief.

If the government is not an involved party, there is no such thing as free speech. Unless a public forum is under the purview of a governmental agency, i.e. any internet forum not there of, you have no right to free speech, that is why BW can say what we are and are not allowed to say on their forums. They get to deciede what speech is permissible and they are under no obligation to even explain why. If they say we are not allowed to talk about Luke Skywalker, than we have no legal right to talk about Luke Skywalker on their forums.

The right to Free speech has no legal baring among private parties.

dontbeswg's Avatar


dontbeswg
07.26.2017 , 07:34 PM | #467
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post


I've also read some of you are tossing in the towel and are leaving us. That obviously saddens me as the game is better when everyone works together. I have valued your input, have tried to understand your frustration while working with the team to get your concerns addressed. Not everything is as it seems, but I respect your decision and look to earn your business again in the near future.

Hope everyone is taking full advantage of the bonus CXP week. Have a great weekend.

Keith---
I don't blame you keith, Ben really put this game into a whole with the CXP and EA buried it when they decided to not sufficiently staff the game to make content in all areas of the game SPECIFICALLY THE DECISION TO STOP MAKING OPS DURING 4.0!!!

Ultimately Keith I don't know what you do with this game at this point, most of the players that play this game have no clue how to play it, and I don't see people we need in the mmo community coming back to this game. If you have any pull in EA, I would advice them that they need to give you guys the resources to get Ops back into this game at 2-3 an expansion clip. If you don't do that this game will continue to rot.

Good luck, I will happily play this game when it returns to being a AAA mmo.

dontbeswg's Avatar


dontbeswg
07.26.2017 , 07:39 PM | #468
Quote: Originally Posted by realleaftea View Post
How did you get these numbers? If I use parsely:

Virulence
1.5m dummy: 9404.63 => 9169.6 = a loss of 235 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9697.87 => 9436.25 = a loss of 262 DPS

Engineering
1.5m dummy: 9515.19 => 9183.66 = a loss of 332 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9576.95 => 9346.64 = a loss of 230 DPS

Innovative Ordnance
1.5m dummy: 9449.39 => 9153.33 = a loss of 296 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9707.62 => 9404.17 = a loss of 303 DPS

Arsenal
1.5m dummy: 9103.3 => 8703.4 = a loss of 400 DPS
2.5m dummy: 9052.59 => 8525.02 = a loss of 527 DPS

.
when 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%

Of this game can't do hardmode anything not EV or KP, why is the development team nerfing dps? At this point what are we worried about if people start doing NiM content often? Isn't that where this game needs to go? Or do we just need to sit in our stronghold because the players in this game are so bad you can't do anything with them.

dontbeswg's Avatar


dontbeswg
07.26.2017 , 07:42 PM | #469
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
I would be interested to see what kind of drops they've got planned for MM Umbara...
...Right?
No, Nobody *********** cares anymore because this game is dead and it's gear is a coffin.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.26.2017 , 08:16 PM | #470
Quote: Originally Posted by dontbeswg View Post
enjoy your dead game
I enjoy the game very much. If you don't, and this game isn't your style, I'm sure there are others.