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Dual Specializations and You!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Dual Specializations and You!

SySnootles's Avatar


SySnootles
12.14.2011 , 09:10 AM | #1
Dual Talent Specialization (or dual spec) specialization is the ability to switch between two skill specs.

Now that the definition is out of the way, lets get to discussing how dual spec would impact the Sorcerer class if and when Bioware decides to implement the feature in SW: TOR.

What would dual spec imply function wise for the player?

With some or no restrictions beyond the obvious... "Not allowed in Combat", as well as a level based or credit based cost.The ability to change between 2 skill specializations would optimally imply the automatic use of a set of action bars for each spec as well as an equipment profile for each specialization if the player so desires.

Why would it benefit the player in general and the Sorcerer in particular?

Dual talent specialization can be beneficial to players who want to cover multiple roles or participate in different types of content. The Sorcerer being one of the designated "Healer" classes, is frequently assigned the healer role in groups content. Dual spec allows the Sorcerer to set his second talent specialization to take on the damage dealer role and be able to efficiently kill enemies while questing alone, while the PVP minded Sorcerer could tailor one spec for player vs. enemies (PVE) content and the other for player vs. player (PVP) battles.

What would the negative impact be of implementing such a system?

As easily as the system could lead to player benefits it would lead to community problems, such as:

1. Under-geared and unskilled players who are not particular apt to fill any role be it on PVE or PVP content.

2. Encouragement of "need looting" behavior to fill gear slots of both of the players specializations, even if the player is not currently using the spec he is rolling gear for.

3. Devaluation of certain "Hybrid" or "Less specialized" talent trees. Sorcerers in particular would mainly go between lighting and corruption, leaving madness as little more than a support tree.

It would be interesting to get a discussion going here on the Sorcerer forum on how this feature would affect how you played your class and the implications to the game in general.

Jigglypants's Avatar


Jigglypants
12.14.2011 , 09:16 AM | #2
I'm not going to write a long post here, but personally I'm all for dual specs.

Basically there are always a lack of healers and tanks for high level flashpoints which leads to high queue times for pretty much everyone. Alot of people would consider healing/tanking if it wouldn't mean that they had to respec constantly at a high cost if they want a dps spec for PvP (or as main spec for raiding or similar).

Even if it might be breaking immersion a bit for people loving the strong RP element of this game, I think it will be beneficial for everyone in the long run to create more activity.

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
12.14.2011 , 09:16 AM | #3
I come from City of Heroes where dual building is in the game and I didn't mind it over there because each seperate build was still aimed at the same thing (IE: 2 dps builds, 2 tank builds), but I am not in favour of it over here.

The reason being is that I chose my Sorceror because I was to DPS, I have zero interest in healing and I never want to be in a group where the healer leaves and the group all turns to look at me asking me to pick my 2nd build and heal for them. I can see the same thing happening to other classes when the tank leaves etc.

I know companions are nowhere near as good as players are, but they are in the game and can at a push take the place of a dedicated tank or healer and I would prefer that to dual builds.

I would really love to be able to switch between Lightning and Madness builds, but I think the con's outweigh the pro's for me.

Edit: I like your posts by the way OP, you seem to create interesting and well written topics.

Edit 2: I also know a lot of people are planning to have several alts, and it doesn't look like taking very long to get to level 50 compared to any other MMO I have ever seen.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

dreambrother's Avatar


dreambrother
12.14.2011 , 09:16 AM | #4
This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all
without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps

JOutlaw's Avatar


JOutlaw
12.14.2011 , 09:55 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by dreambrother View Post
This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all
without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps

OK, I apologize for this being off-topic, as I think the OP had a very well thought out conversation piece. But Dreambrother, there is a thing called grammar and punctuation. Please look into how to use them properly. If you are ever in doubt, read back what you just wrote and try saying it out loud. If you run out of breath, then you need to enter in some periods.

Sorry for going off topic, but these things are a pet peeve of mine.
Some say Tomato, others say Tomato, but when you write it down, it doesn't make a lick of difference.

Devorasx's Avatar


Devorasx
12.14.2011 , 10:41 AM | #6
I fully endorse this thread.

SySnootles's Avatar


SySnootles
12.14.2011 , 11:37 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Jigglypants View Post
Basically there are always a lack of healers and tanks for high level flashpoints which leads to high queue times for pretty much everyone. Alot of people would consider healing/tanking if it wouldn't mean that they had to respec constantly at a high cost if they want a dps spec for PvP (or as main spec for raiding or similar).
I think the versatility of gameplay and player-base are, as you mention, the biggest "pluses" of allowing dual specs.

Iīm more interested in the "cost" to the community, if any? Will it push it towards a less skilled more greedy player-base? or will it allow for a democratization of the Healer/Tank roles?


Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
I come from City of Heroes where dual building is in the game and I didn't mind it over there because each seperate build was still aimed at the same thing (IE: 2 dps builds, 2 tank builds), but I am not in favour of it over here.

The reason being is that I chose my Sorceror because I was to DPS, I have zero interest in healing and I never want to be in a group where the healer leaves and the group all turns to look at me asking me to pick my 2nd build and heal for them. I can see the same thing happening to other classes when the tank leaves etc.

I know companions are nowhere near as good as players are, but they are in the game and can at a push take the place of a dedicated tank or healer and I would prefer that to dual builds.

I would really love to be able to switch between Lightning and Madness builds, but I think the con's outweigh the pro's for me.

Edit: I like your posts by the way OP, you seem to create interesting and well written topics.

Edit 2: I also know a lot of people are planning to have several alts, and it doesn't look like taking very long to get to level 50 compared to any other MMO I have ever seen.
I think COH/COV had a style of gameplay and customization that allowed for a perfect implementation of multiple character builds. Iīm sure the game had itīs fair share of "min-maxing" but maybe it was not as pronounced as in mmoīs like SW:TOR or WoW?

The biggest fear i have seen in the discussions concerning a dual spec system is, arguably, the loss of class identity and function.

Sorcererīs currently can either be Healers or DPS but not both... add dual spec to the mix and you have an unconventional "hybrid" class, where you can fill each role situationaly (but not at the same time or during the same fight).

I played a Druid for a long time when WoW launched in Europe, itīs still one of my favorite mmo classes. The jack of all trades but master of none was a good sign to year around my neck and it felt unique enough to make me want to optimize the class mechanics to their fullest.

When dual spec was introduced into the mix, i felt like the class lost itīs "uniqueness", i could now spec for each role to maximum effect with no compromises. No longer were druids unique, they were simply there to be asked or told to be Tankīs or Healerīs.

Anyways, and back on the topic, i think dual spec should be taken into account as a viable gameplay mechanic when the game is more "mature" and everyone has had the chance to play around with their respective classes to their fullest extent.

PS Edit: Thanks, i have a lot of time on my hands at work, as a graphic designer for a small company, i can pretty much schedule my work as i see fit. So that leaves me a lot of time to check the forums and try to argue myself into a corner (donīt tell my wife tho, she would probably force me to proof read for her all day, damned writers)

Quote: Originally Posted by dreambrother View Post
This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all
without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps
If your a good player, playing as a DPS sorcerer shouldn't stop you from finding groups.

From my experience, the only difficulty is the initial contact with a PUG, if your truly an awesome dps sorcerer, word will get around and people will actually whisper you to join them in a flashpoint run... this from someone who saw his brother become one of the most kick *** shadow priests on his server.

StarCadence's Avatar


StarCadence
12.14.2011 , 11:46 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by SySnootles View Post
[U]1. Under-geared and unskilled players who are not particular apt to fill any role be it on PVE or PVP content.
This is my main gripe about it. Upwards of 80% of wipes I've experienced are due to someone flipping to a spec they don't know well (and not geared for) instead of waiting 5 minutes to grab someone to fill the role.

And yes, with a good guild and lots of non-guildy friends, I rarely had to ever wait more than 5 minutes to fill a spot. And most of that was that person's travel time.

Not to mention it leads to rudeness. Being told to switch spec to something I'm not good at or don't have an interest in ... well, you aren't paying for my sub, so nerf off. Anyone being rude enough to demand someone dual spec usually gets kicked in the groups I'm in.

Maybe it's just an rp thing, I don't know. But just like I wouldn't use a lawyer to cut grass, I wouldn't ask the DPS Lightning Sorc to switch to healing when he doesn't know the healing rotations that would keep his force bar (and us) up.
Major 'Bugbite' Cairn - Combat Medic

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
12.14.2011 , 11:55 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by SySnootles View Post
I think COH/COV had a style of gameplay and customization that allowed for a perfect implementation of multiple character builds. Iīm sure the game had itīs fair share of "min-maxing" but maybe it was not as pronounced as in mmoīs like SW:TOR or WoW?
When CoH/CoV was about 5 years old they released a change that the characters you used to unlock at level 50 became unlocked at level 20 because the majority of the playerbase had not actually hit 50 (The level cap), so yeah you could say it wasn't min/maxed in the way other games are

It did however have the capability to be truly overpowered if you were a min/maxer (Like myself) and many people were soloing 8 person team content.

But it also encouraged people to have lots of alternate characters, so if I wanted to heal I would hop on my healer, I had dual builds on many toons but they were solo dps, or team dps choices, which made dual builds work well.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Krytycal's Avatar


Krytycal
12.14.2011 , 12:33 PM | #10
There are simply no reasons not to implement dual specs. The only people that are against it are minority of healers and unique butterflies who for some reason want to remain as a valued commodity and don't want to increase their numbers by people who aren't main healers being able to switch to full heals. They don't want their monopoly on healing/tanking/whatever taken away. They want to feel speshul.

The arguments are of course silly. I've healed and DPSed in plenty MMOs. Heck, the spec I'm rolling with is a healer/dps hybrid so I won't even gain much from dual spec. The people who think healing is more difficult than DPSing are delusional, or have never been good DPSers. Both styles of gameplay pretty much require the same core skills: spatial awareness, knowing your enemy and your team, knowledge of the game mechanics, dexterity with the mouse and keyboard, etc.

Honestly, the classes in this game aren't that complicated, least of all sorcs. Give a good player a sorc, either healer or DPS, and he'll get the hang of it fast. Bad players will be bad no matter what class they play. I'd personally rather have someone that I know is good at DPSing switch to healing than some random healer I don't know.

Playing MMOs is like driving. Sure, the cars (classes) might change a bit (weight, transmission, etc) but a good driver will still be a good driver regardless of car. A bad driver can drive the same car for any number of years and still be a ****** driver.