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The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
03.16.2015 , 07:43 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
I might be speculating (which we all do in threads like these btw), but you guys give too much weight to a 10 secod duel.
Windu hid from the lightning because that was the best thing he could do. Why do flashy things like catching it with hand or lightsaber when he can do a simple side step and avoid the whole damn thing?
Disengage =/= pushback. He could've had dozens of reasons to fall back, he was even dodging Talzin's strikes. If she was so much better she would've been faster too and hack Windu in pieces.

That duel was just too damn short to say it either way, you just see things in it you want to see and vice versa with others.
He hurried to the side. It wasn't some simple side step. Also wouldn't drawing your lightsaber to protect yourself be more beneficial than hoping to effectively evade it if simply blocking it was an option? Also the bold part isn't really true. It's easier to avoid strikes while backing off and making that your focus than it is to avoid an attack after making an attack of your own, which your opponent just evaded, and is now countering you. There could be many reasons why he disengaged but those reasons are all guess work. The facts remain as follows..

Windu is an offensive style duelist. If he wanted to draw her away he could have drew his lightsaber and waited for her to approach. He could have goaded her into attacking him. He didn't do this. He instead charged her. Then she pushed on him, he pushed on her, and then she pushed back. He broke the saber lock and didn't use this time to disengage.

Watch closely. From here he, after it's broken, charges and swings at her again. She parries the attack and then nearly hits him. He dodges the blow and she uses this opportunity to keep attacking. Windu begins to lose ground and as she's getting closer to connecting leaps to a lower floor. He was clearly being pushed back. He tried charging her twice. Once with the saber lock and the second time with a blow. Both times she blocked him. Both times he couldn't push her to even move one foot back.

Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
03.16.2015 , 07:56 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Why bother to distract someone you are capable of defeating. If you fight to distract someone it usually means you're trying to buy time. This is a perfectly valid strategy when the opponent you're facing is more powerful than yourself. He disengaged, again, right after he engaged. He gave up ground. Again, this is a big deal for someone who is offensive. Even when he charged her he couldn't draw her back one step. She was pushing forward the entire time.
There are a host of reasons...

Even as a warrior born killing is not on the top of his list of things too do in that instance. He is fighting her in the context of other events. Talzin definitely seems to be the type of person where once she has her mind on something you will have to kill her to stop her and she will go had long into fighting you.

So he is dropping back in order for her to be focused on him, while other people get their jobs done, stretching the fight out long enough. To just go balls to the wall against her there would have kept her there, preventing the prisoner from being freed in time and the ritual would have succeeded.

He WANTS her to come towards him because he WANTS her away from the platform with the Occular device. It's called strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y207JIwQXcw

Then you also have what Zoltan says. This is the first time they have fought. As such... when you have a completely different goal you re not going to risk a stand up fight where a delay will risk the mission. The MISSION is what is important, not winning the duel, so you use caution so the mission succeeds.
...We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form...
...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
03.16.2015 , 09:05 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghisallo View Post
There are a host of reasons...

Even as a warrior born killing is not on the top of his list of things too do in that instance. He is fighting her in the context of other events. Talzin definitely seems to be the type of person where once she has her mind on something you will have to kill her to stop her and she will go had long into fighting you.

So he is dropping back in order for her to be focused on him, while other people get their jobs done, stretching the fight out long enough. To just go balls to the wall against her there would have kept her there, preventing the prisoner from being freed in time and the ritual would have succeeded.

He WANTS her to come towards him because he WANTS her away from the platform with the Occular device. It's called strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y207JIwQXcw

Then you also have what Zoltan says. This is the first time they have fought. As such... when you have a completely different goal you re not going to risk a stand up fight where a delay will risk the mission. The MISSION is what is important, not winning the duel, so you use caution so the mission succeeds.
That's speculation. There's many possible speculations one could make. You could also argue that Talzin wasn't taking Windu seriously. How so? Talzin never fought him before. She had no reason to take him seriously. She also didn't bother engaging him in a manner that she specializes in. That would actually be based on fact. Truth is we have seen Windu try to end fights as quickly as possible. She was going to engage regardless. She made that clear by phasing in a blade. After Windu broke the first saber lock he could have backed off there. He didn't. He tried to attack her again which once more didn't even make her move back a step.

These are the facts with zero speculation.

1) Windu is an offensive fighter who has proven in the past that he aims to end fights as quickly as possible.

2) Windu prefers to press the advantage. He's very offensive oriented. So are his students and contemporaries.

3) Windu tried to press the advantage not once but twice.

4) Windu was the first and only one to end up falling back.

5) Windu is a saber specialist who has defeated Sidious

6) Talzin does not specialize in using a sword. It is not her strongest skill-set.

7) Windu took shelter from her attack

There is no reason we should believe that Windu is a match for Talzin. In none of the above facts does Windu display an advantage. You can come up with speculation for this or that but in the end the fact is Windu did not have any edge over Talzin. You can't reasonably make the argument that Windu is more powerful than her or could have taken her in a straight fight. There's no evidence that can lead one to this conclusion logically.

Alimarius's Avatar


Alimarius
03.16.2015 , 09:19 AM | #24
Doesn't anyone remember that Talzin was stomped by Sidious on Dathomir of all places, which is the center of her power? Because that would definitely prove that Palpatine>Windu, as well as Sidious throwing the fight with Mace. In fact, Sidious himself stated that Talzin possesses none of Dooku's skill, someone who is supposed to be on par with Windu in swordsmanship.

As for wether the novelizations of the movies are canon or not, I think this will end the discussion:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...4446194-rg.png

So, in canon, and disregarding the notion that Sidious threw the fight, Mace still won because he was amped, and because he exploited a fear that wasn't Palpatine's to begin with.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
03.16.2015 , 09:27 AM | #25
Firstly, Sidious did not "stomp" her.

She was weakened from the ritual that returned her to life, and it took both him and Dooku working together to actually overpower her.

What's more, the supposed skill that she lacked was witnessed by Sidious while she possessed someone elses body, and was using a curved hilt that she had never before fought with, hardly an indication of her actual ability.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
CelÚna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

Alimarius's Avatar


Alimarius
03.16.2015 , 09:45 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Firstly, Sidious did not "stomp" her.

She was weakened from the ritual that returned her to life, and it took both him and Dooku working together to actually overpower her.

What's more, the supposed skill that she lacked was witnessed by Sidious while she possessed someone elses body, and was using a curved hilt that she had never before fought with, hardly an indication of her actual ability.
I was talking about the lightsaber portion of the fight only. Furthermore, there is no indication that wielding a curved hilt saber (which wouldn't be a problem for any seasoned Force sensitive, especially considering that Barris Offee had no issue with Ventress' lightsabers) or possesing Dooku's body hindered her skil to any extent, not to mention that she was on Dathomir which is the center of her power.

Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
03.16.2015 , 09:47 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
That's speculation. There's many possible speculations one could make. You could also argue that Talzin wasn't taking Windu seriously. How so? Talzin never fought him before. She had no reason to take him seriously. She also didn't bother engaging him in a manner that she specializes in. That would actually be based on fact. Truth is we have seen Windu try to end fights as quickly as possible. She was going to engage regardless. She made that clear by phasing in a blade. After Windu broke the first saber lock he could have backed off there. He didn't. He tried to attack her again which once more didn't even make her move back a step.

These are the facts with zero speculation.

1) Windu is an offensive fighter who has proven in the past that he aims to end fights as quickly as possible.

2) Windu prefers to press the advantage. He's very offensive oriented. So are his students and contemporaries.

3) Windu tried to press the advantage not once but twice.

4) Windu was the first and only one to end up falling back.

5) Windu is a saber specialist who has defeated Sidious

6) Talzin does not specialize in using a sword. It is not her strongest skill-set.

7) Windu took shelter from her attack

There is no reason we should believe that Windu is a match for Talzin. In none of the above facts does Windu display an advantage. You can come up with speculation for this or that but in the end the fact is Windu did not have any edge over Talzin. You can't reasonably make the argument that Windu is more powerful than her or could have taken her in a straight fight. There's no evidence that can lead one to this conclusion logically.
You are COMPLETELY ignoring the point that an offensive fighter does NOT mean a stupid or a foolish fighter that charges head long into combat with no thought to the greater goal. Against Sidious Mace could go all out at him. The mission there was to either beat him into submission and arrest, or kill. the fight against Talzin had completely different goals.

I was a soldier once...I trained and did directly attack the enemy, the only goal being to take them out one way or the other. I have been a cop for 18 years. yes there have been times where it is balls to the wall, take the guy down and arrest him. HOWEVER I have had to place myself between a victim and their armed assailant and retreat... NOT because I did not want to take out the bad guy (who was in a window, behind cover with a gun) but because my primary mission there was to get the victim to safety.

So with Mace we have similar scenarios...

1. Sidious, balls to the wall, disable/take him out.
2. Talzin, the mission is NOT to take her out, it's to draw her away from the ritual, to bait her if necessary to achieve the goal, so that Jar Jar (god help me he saved the day) can free the sacrifice.

Tactics and Strategy only take a back seat to blood thirstiness when you are an idiot or an uncontrollable psychopath. Mace is not an idiot. You are viewing him like he is a Norse Berserker and not one of the most thoughtful Jedi of his day (being Grand Master and all of that).
...We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form...
...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.16.2015 , 10:22 AM | #28
Guys does it really matter? Any sensible person who believes the novelisations and Legends canon valid and relevant knows that Talzin is more powerful, if not significantly more powerful than Windu. So the fact is Talzin is more likely than not going to be faster and stronger than Windu, and could therefore - regardless of whether she did or did not in their duel, probably have put Windu on the back foot. I think that is something we can all agree upon, no?

So, unless some attempts to make an argument that the fact that Windu didn't attempt to deflect Talzin's lightning but did Sidious, proves that Windu > Talzin (outside of the bubble that is this thread) I don't think there is really an issue.

Nor do I see the point in wasting time proving to the OP the many ways his "canon only" rule is inadequate, and will only lead to dumb@ss placements. I think that's pretty obvious, so let's not squabble when we're on the same page.

Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
03.16.2015 , 10:38 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Guys does it really matter? Any sensible person who believes the novelisations and Legends canon valid and relevant knows that Talzin is more powerful, if not significantly more powerful than Windu. So the fact is Talzin is more likely than not going to be faster and stronger than Windu, and could therefore - regardless of whether she did or did not in their duel, probably have put Windu on the back foot. I think that is something we can all agree upon, no?

So, unless some attempts to make an argument that the fact that Windu didn't attempt to deflect Talzin's lightning but did Sidious, proves that Windu > Talzin (outside of the bubble that is this thread) I don't think there is really an issue.

Nor do I see the point in wasting time proving to the OP the many ways his "canon only" rule is inadequate, and will only lead to dumb@ss placements. I think that's pretty obvious, so let's not squabble when we're on the same page.
In the last paragraph you say something telling BUT I don't think you actually realize it. In using Canon we get quantifiable results. So yes a character we came to love from old sources can well be substantially changed. This only results in dumb***** placements however if we can not let go of our preconceptions. Yes these preconceptions were for the most part created by others BUT that influence has been removed.

What you see as a dumb***** placement is based on a world that, in terms of Canon, no longer exists. I sympathize... I LOVE Thrawn... I loved the stories of the Dawn of the Jedi. I read the stories of Ulic Qel Droma and SCREAMED bloody murder when he fell and killed his brother then cheered when he redeemed himself and became one with the force. However I need to put all of that aside now and it is frustrating. At the same time it is exciting because I don't know what to expect.
...We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form...
...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
03.16.2015 , 10:57 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Guys does it really matter? Any sensible person who believes the novelisations and Legends canon valid and relevant knows that Talzin is more powerful, if not significantly more powerful than Windu. So the fact is Talzin is more likely than not going to be faster and stronger than Windu, and could therefore - regardless of whether she did or did not in their duel, probably have put Windu on the back foot. I think that is something we can all agree upon, no?

So, unless some attempts to make an argument that the fact that Windu didn't attempt to deflect Talzin's lightning but did Sidious, proves that Windu > Talzin (outside of the bubble that is this thread) I don't think there is really an issue.

Nor do I see the point in wasting time proving to the OP the many ways his "canon only" rule is inadequate, and will only lead to dumb@ss placements. I think that's pretty obvious, so let's not squabble when we're on the same page.
The only reason I'm posting in here is because I've thought of some arguments that will forge the funniest power ranking list in the history of Star Wars.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
CelÚna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage