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The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
03.16.2015 , 06:46 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Permaximum View Post
For draft purposes, here's my rough list and the explanation I wrote in an another thread.

1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Sheev Palpatine
4. Darth Vader
5. Obi-Wan Kenobi
6. Count Dooku
7. Luke Skywalker
8. Darth Maul
9. Qui-Gon Jinn
10. Savage Opress
?. Darth Plagueis
?. Darth Bane





Nominees for the Most Powerful Force User in the Galaxy

1. Yoda, Mace Windu, Sheev Palpatine, Darth Vader
What about Talzin? She made a joke of count dooku and completely pushed Windu back with ease. In fact, mace, who is a "Sword" specialist completely backed off from her in a brief engagement in a "duel" in which she doesn't specialize. If Windu > Sidious in your mind wouldn't that make Talzin > All? Given how easily she bested Windu? Without the novels you can't use "vaapad" in his Sidious duel. So where does this place Talzin? He also blocked Sidious lightning but ran from Talzin's attack. In fact, he took shelter against it like one would against a blaster.

Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Your "What's Canon" list doesn't even include everything that is a part of the new canon.

That made me laugh.
Can we make a case for Talzin being number 1 in this thread?

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
03.16.2015 , 06:52 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
completely pushed Windu back with ease. In fact, mace, who is a "Sword" specialist completely backed off from her in a brief engagement in a "duel" in which she doesn't specialize.
You guys say this a lot, were we watching different TCW?
https://youtu.be/y207JIwQXcw?t=45s

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
03.16.2015 , 06:55 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
You guys say this a lot, were we watching different TCW?
https://youtu.be/y207JIwQXcw?t=45s
Apparently. Windu charges Talzin and engages her in combat. This is completely in character of him as he's an offensive style duelist. After a few swings what does he do? Starts backing off and even drops to a lower platform. This even gives her the higher ground advantage.

There's a term for this. Being pushed back. If this was Obi Wan it wouldn't mean anything as he fights completely defensively. Soresu is a canon style. Windu, on the other hand, isn't a defensive fighter. For him to fall back like that would mean he's at a disadvantage. Talzin is the one pressing the attack. Not Windu. Someone can try to make the case she caught him by surprise but this isn't accurate either. Windu engaged her first but was forced back almost immediately after locking blades.

Not once is he able to make her give even an inch.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
03.16.2015 , 06:58 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Apparently. Windu charges Talzin and engages her in combat. This is completely in character of him as he's an offensive style duelist. After a few swings what does he do? Starts backing off and even drops to a lower platform. This even gives her the higher ground advantage.

There's a term for this. Being pushed back. If this was Obi Wan it wouldn't mean anything as he fights completely defensively. Soresu is a canon style. Windu, on the other hand, isn't a defensive fighter. For him to fall back like that would mean he's at a disadvantage. Talzin is the one pressing the attack. Not Windu. Someone can try to make the case she caught him by surprise but this isn't accurate either. Windu engaged her first but was forced back almost immediately after locking blades.
Windu disengaged once, not a big deal. And I actually think he was just distracting her...

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
03.16.2015 , 07:00 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Windu disengaged once, not a big deal. And I actually think he was just distracting her...
Why bother to distract someone you are capable of defeating. If you fight to distract someone it usually means you're trying to buy time. This is a perfectly valid strategy when the opponent you're facing is more powerful than yourself. He disengaged, again, right after he engaged. He gave up ground. Again, this is a big deal for someone who is offensive. Even when he charged her he couldn't draw her back one step. She was pushing forward the entire time.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
03.16.2015 , 07:03 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Why bother to distract someone you are capable of defeating.
Why fight someone that powerful when you can defeat her with other means. He knew this ritual is all she's got.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
03.16.2015 , 07:07 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Why fight someone that powerful when you can defeat her with other means. He knew this ritual is all she's got.
He didn't know she'd vanish after the ritual. Not to mention there's no need to disengage. If she saw Jar Jar and tried going for him he'd have the advantage of attacking her while she's distracted. If he was an even level opponent to her and if she tries to divert her attention between him and someone else that would give him an advantage to win. The problem here is that you're speculating. There's no reliable proof that he was doing it just to buy time and that he could have had the potential to defeat her otherwise if given the chance.

There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was being pushed back, giving ground, and even took shelter from her attack (we have seen Jedi draw their sabers in time to block lightning. Windu took shelter like one would against blaster bolt fire when not having the means to protect themselves from it.) This alone means nothing but it does when we see her engage and Windu falling back. There's also this fact as well..

Windu specializes himself as a swordsman. He's known for his capabilities in dueling. Talzin is noted as a Shaman with her specialty in rituals. She was able to push Windu back in an arena he's specialized in. Something no one else has managed to do. Not even Sidious had been able to push Windu like that.

The first time we see Talzin participate in saber-play or even see it mentioned is when she is showing she has the advantage against someone of Windu's caliber. I think given the rules of the original poster's thread that this allows Talzin a candidate as the strongest force user in the new Canon.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
03.16.2015 , 07:32 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
The problem here is that you're speculating. There's no reliable proof that he was doing it just to buy time and that he could have had the potential to defeat her otherwise if given the chance.

There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was being pushed back, giving ground, and even took shelter from her attack (we have seen Jedi draw their sabers in time to block lightning. Windu took shelter like one would against blaster bolt fire when not having the means to protect themselves from it.) This alone means nothing but it does when we see her engage and Windu falling back. There's also this fact as well..

Windu specializes himself as a swordsman. He's known for his capabilities in dueling. Talzin is noted as a Shaman with her specialty in rituals. She was able to push Windu back in an arena he's specialized in. Something no one else has managed to do. Not even Sidious had been able to push Windu like that.
I might be speculating (which we all do in threads like these btw), but you guys give too much weight to a 10 secod duel.
Windu hid from the lightning because that was the best thing he could do. Why do flashy things like catching it with hand or lightsaber when he can do a simple side step and avoid the whole damn thing?
Disengage =/= pushback. He could've had dozens of reasons to fall back, he was even dodging Talzin's strikes. If she was so much better she would've been faster too and hack Windu in pieces.

That duel was just too damn short to say it either way, you just see things in it you want to see and vice versa with others.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
03.16.2015 , 07:34 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
What about Talzin? She made a joke of count dooku and completely pushed Windu back with ease. In fact, mace, who is a "Sword" specialist completely backed off from her in a brief engagement in a "duel" in which she doesn't specialize. If Windu > Sidious in your mind wouldn't that make Talzin > All? Given how easily she bested Windu? Without the novels you can't use "vaapad" in his Sidious duel. So where does this place Talzin? He also blocked Sidious lightning but ran from Talzin's attack. In fact, he took shelter against it like one would against a blaster.



Can we make a case for Talzin being number 1 in this thread?
"Son of Dathomir" is a canon instalment, so yes, it would be rather easy to make an argument for Talzin as number 1 in this thread.
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Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
03.16.2015 , 07:43 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Permaximum View Post
If it's not canon, then it's simply fan fiction nothing else. EU has never been canon in fact. It was just EU fanboys tried to get a few words from Lucas to believe it in their minds.

As for Luke as number 1... The speed of advancement is a good point but we can't know if he could keep up with the pace. Besides, we know that he got an accelarated training with basics. Still, in the last movie he was nowhere near the most powerful force user.

Also, that thing about Luke trying to prevent Sidious' lightning from killing him has not been in any canon material.

Prime Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Vader, Kenobi and Dooku are all more powerful than Luke Skywalker.

Luke barely become a jedi knight in the end of the sixth movie and he's never shown anything but lightsaber skills despite there has been a need for greater skills several times in the episode V and VI in his fights with Vader and his confrontation with Palpatine. In an all out power showdown, all the others I mentioned has shown far more greater feats.
Here is the problem with that Lucas said it was canon. Now yes he did so because he knew the people you refer to as fanbois would not buy them, so in terms of wanting "MO MONEY, MO MONEY" he wanted a canon, but it doesn't change the fact that he said it was canon.

Now is his canon one that fits the dictionary definition of the term? No it is not. If it was you would not have needed the Canon rules or the Holocron as managed by Leland Chee. So I suppose from a point of semantics you are correct. HOWEVER Lucasarts did state that as far as they were concerned, unless stated otherwise or contradicted by other sources, that the events in the EU should be considered Canon.

Now this of course creates a MAJOR issue with the fact that people have a subjective view of what = contradiction. Rather than using the actual definition... a person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present... they go a step further...inconsistency is not enough... for them a contradiction must always be a version of "you said black and that says white." To make matters worse they apply the definition selectively. BUT this is not the readers fault... it's the fault of Lucasarts for creating a system of lore that is, by it's nature, prone to subjectivity and then slapping a term on it that is not applicable, all in the rather mercenary cause of maximizing revenue.
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...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides