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Madness Assassin PVP Question about spec.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Madness Assassin PVP Question about spec.

Vrajl's Avatar


Vrajl
07.21.2014 , 05:54 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by PhatMcMuffins View Post
death field in wakajinn will not hit harder than a recklessnessed discharge. couple that with a proc'd maul and shock.

Voltaic is a strong filler compared to most fillers. It hits harder than thrash does and builds voltage. Voltage at 2 stacks auto triggers surging charge on your next shock. I've hit almost 4k with just the surging charge. Add that to the 5-6k you can get from shock. If you're getting more burst from wakajinn, you're not playing deception properly. The spec is average at best since 2.0. The playstyle is still kinda fun but full madness just enhances that play style of semi-mid-ranged play.

also, comparing death field to voltaic is silly. its apples to oranges. Death field is a burst AoE. Voltaic is a filler and a good one at that, that also builds voltage for shock.

A simple opener for deception is Spike > Recklessness > Discharge > Duplicity Maul > Voltaic x 2 > shock > low slash > duplicity maul. Thats if i remember everything correctly. its been a while since i played deception.

With madness buffs, you can get your death field fix by simply playing the full spec. For performance, its full spec either deception or madness

EDIT: Here is the Wakajinn spec
You could swap oppressing force for sith defiance and insulation for obfuscation but thats preference.

As you see, you lose all the flow of deception. you no longer auto-proc duplicity off low slash and spike. shock will hit for less without the added auto-surging charge from voltage. You do less damage to low health targets, which is important for burst specs because you NEED to kill that target quickly to fulfill your roll
This is the new spec I decided to give a shot. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...GbRrbzZfrzoM.3
Sometimes I put points into obfuscation instead of avoidance. I like it because its made for maximum opening burst. spike>recklessness>Discharge>Death Field and then I have options. Kite for shocks. LS>CD>maul. Electrocute then spam whatever is off cooldown. Whatever I need to kill them. I like it because its set to hit hard, immediately. Its crap for any strung out fight. I cant build voltage. Force management is nonexistent. But I cant build voltage for an opener. This is max opener build. Its fun, but I might switch back to full deception. this spec was just to try out ever since I heard of Wakajin.

PhatMcMuffins's Avatar


PhatMcMuffins
07.21.2014 , 10:05 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Vrajl View Post
This is the new spec I decided to give a shot. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...GbRrbzZfrzoM.3
Sometimes I put points into obfuscation instead of avoidance. I like it because its made for maximum opening burst. spike>recklessness>Discharge>Death Field and then I have options. Kite for shocks. LS>CD>maul. Electrocute then spam whatever is off cooldown. Whatever I need to kill them. I like it because its set to hit hard, immediately. Its crap for any strung out fight. I cant build voltage. Force management is nonexistent. But I cant build voltage for an opener. This is max opener build. Its fun, but I might switch back to full deception. this spec was just to try out ever since I heard of Wakajin.
It still won't hit as hard as full deception. Madness's burst phase is stronger. Plus, this has absolutely no sustained damage. (thrash won't do jack in this build) It lacks fillers and flow. To each his own, but I see no appeal in this spec.
<Occasional Crops>
Qarum - Alan Rails - Dazkkum - Fake Doors - Eight-six

FinalArbiter's Avatar


FinalArbiter
07.22.2014 , 08:10 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Vrajl View Post
This is the new spec I decided to give a shot. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...GbRrbzZfrzoM.3
Sometimes I put points into obfuscation instead of avoidance. I like it because its made for maximum opening burst. spike>recklessness>Discharge>Death Field and then I have options. Kite for shocks. LS>CD>maul. Electrocute then spam whatever is off cooldown. Whatever I need to kill them. I like it because its set to hit hard, immediately. Its crap for any strung out fight. I cant build voltage. Force management is nonexistent. But I cant build voltage for an opener. This is max opener build. Its fun, but I might switch back to full deception. this spec was just to try out ever since I heard of Wakajin.
Few things about that spec you linked.

1. It doesn't make sense to pvp without the Celerity/Avoidance talent. Regardless of whether or not you use CC breaker or interrupts often, you NEED cooldown reduction on Force Speed. Regardless of how strong the class is DPSwise, shadows and assassins are still squishy-as-f*** melee classes that need all the mobility they can get to get out of sh*tty situations.

2. You say force management is nonexistent but you can literally have a 50 percent Force regen boost for up to 24 seconds using shadow's respite/dark embrace properly in conjunction with Force cloak and blackout. In addition you run Torment/Psychokinesis, you should have plenty of Force, enough to pull 100k dps or so before you really start to have to use Saber Strike in place of a Force-costing GCD.

3. Claws of Decay is not that good of a talent. If you can get an opponent to sub 30 percent, you already have a great chance of winning that fight, that you don't need to improve upon. A 6 percent damage boost at that HP level is not nearly as good as any other talent which helps you get your opponents into that HP range in the first place. Those points would be better served in Celerity/Avoidance.

Anyways, I didn't start this thread to argue about the best sin spec out there right now. I'm currently using 5/2/39 which is a slight variation of the standard spec in the guide Ilnox showed me, and I don't think it could be improved upon in any way.

Arguing about full Deception vs Wakajinn vs full Madness is kinda pointless. They're all pretty decent specs, good at different things. I understand that full Madness has the highest sustained DPS out there right now (I have read the parse data) but that doesn't mean Deception or Wakajinn are strictly worse, they are just good at different things like opening and applying tons of instantaneous damage (combined burst from two or more burst classes can put a LOT more pressure on someone who is healing from a Heal-Over-Time effect).

If any spec sucks, it's Darkness, and I'm only saying that because I have been told that there have been statistics to prove that tank Powertechs and tank Juggs have a higher winrate than tank Assassins in PVP. That's what needs a buff right now. I'd say anything else is more or less viable with the right gear and playstyle. If you disagree then you should really back it up with statistics, and I don't mean DPS parses because they do not tell the whole story. I mean something significant like win statistics in PVP.

IInox's Avatar


IInox
07.23.2014 , 07:29 AM | #24
(just to clarify, the balance pvp spec is not mine)

Btw well the only one spec is not worth to play is Wakajin actually..(and wakalord said it by himself) cuz with spininngstrike, balance has a but burst too so it's pointless to play wakajin..

Deception is still viable for burst but in Arena imho is better balance atm..too much pression..

DarkSyn's Avatar


DarkSyn
07.23.2014 , 04:51 PM | #25
as long as we are posting builds heres my build atm http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfrZfMfRrMkrfMR.3but after reading this thread i think ill start fooling around a bit more, and please tell me what you think of this build, I do have the 4 piece force master set for the extra shock range.

i was thinking about trying out this build so feedback would be much appreciated
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...Zf0fRrrkrfMR.3
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PhatMcMuffins's Avatar


PhatMcMuffins
07.23.2014 , 05:51 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSyn View Post
as long as we are posting builds heres my build atm http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfrZfMfRrMkrfMR.3but after reading this thread i think ill start fooling around a bit more, and please tell me what you think of this build, I do have the 4 piece force master set for the extra shock range.

i was thinking about trying out this build so feedback would be much appreciated
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...Zf0fRrrkrfMR.3
Extra stealth speed and strength is pretty useless. You use blackout before opening anyway because there is no other use in madness.

Also, you don't use shock unless for a little filler rarely. 2 piece master, 2 piece stalker is better. Longer force slow range is better for keeping enemies in range. Alternate it with creeping terror to prevent kiting.
<Occasional Crops>
Qarum - Alan Rails - Dazkkum - Fake Doors - Eight-six

IInox's Avatar


IInox
07.23.2014 , 05:55 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSyn View Post
as long as we are posting builds heres my build atm http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfrZfMfRrMkrfMR.3but after reading this thread i think ill start fooling around a bit more, and please tell me what you think of this build, I do have the 4 piece force master set for the extra shock range.

i was thinking about trying out this build so feedback would be much appreciated
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...Zf0fRrrkrfMR.3
1. first build: you don't need any boost at force management in pvp especially if you play with torment talent. Plus chain shock is not worth to take because you don't use it so often, *almost* never. As sustained dps spec i'd take the 3% of arm pen to increase overall damage.

2. as I wrote on first point, you won't use shock so increasing its range is not worth, also first set bonus of stalker seems useless but trust me, it's really nice imho. It can make some of your fights.

3. A bit better but is better to take torment instead Shadow's respite (you don't have a reduced CD of vanish also and can't use blackout out of stealth)

FinalArbiter's Avatar


FinalArbiter
07.24.2014 , 01:11 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by PhatMcMuffins View Post
Extra stealth speed and strength is pretty useless. You use blackout before opening anyway because there is no other use in madness.

Also, you don't use shock unless for a little filler rarely. 2 piece master, 2 piece stalker is better. Longer force slow range is better for keeping enemies in range. Alternate it with creeping terror to prevent kiting.
The Obfuscation talent doesn't give extra stealth speed. It gives more combat speed. The reason is that it does not stack with sprint (and when you are stealthed you are using sprint). Thus you move faster when you are actually in combat (a bit closer to sprint speed but not quite) and are able to catch up to ranged who are trying to kite you better.

I agree with your point that 4 piece force master is useless though. As a balance shadow, I never use Project (jedi version of shock). Yeah if someone with 2000 HP and all DoTs already on them left is 8m away from you and you really don't have Force Slow/Force Speed up, then sure, Project/Shock is the right thing to use to burst them down before they get another heal...but that pretty much never happens to me. o_O If it does, my ticking DoTs will likely finish them off regardless. Having 15m range on project/shock seems entirely pointless compared to 15m range on Force Slow which is insanely useful.

@ The guy that posted the 0/9/37 build...just know that you are sacrificing a LOT of DPS from not having Charge Mastery talent from the Kinetic tree. The reason is that Charge Mastery has awesome synergy with the Exploitive Strikes Talent. When your charges crit, it counts as a Force crit, and that gives you a 9 percent critical strike chance. On my Balance Shadow I have that 9 percent crit chance buff running nearly 100 percent of the time simply due to my Technique critting around 75 percent of the time (30 percent natural crit chance + 45 from talent) ..More crit chance helps my Double strikes do way more damage (you get a 50 percent surge buff on that ability from talents), and my spinning strike crits a lot more as well.

Double Strike/Thrash is a huge part of your DPS with this spec, don't ignore them and put 5 points in kinetic/darkness tree and you will see a lot higher numbers with that skill. I wouldn't be surprised if you get 300-500 more damage on average every time you use that skill with just those 5 points. It might not seem like a lot but it adds up from using that skill so much.

For the second build, I agree 100 percent with Ilnox, dark embrace is useless. Go Torment for sure. The spec I included in my last post is perfect, I've been playing it for a ton of warzones and it works without a hitch. Every time I die stupidly, its because of a mistake I made or because I was outgeared, never because of the spec.

PhatMcMuffins's Avatar


PhatMcMuffins
07.24.2014 , 05:53 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by FinalArbiter View Post
The Obfuscation talent doesn't give extra stealth speed. It gives more combat speed. The reason is that it does not stack with sprint (and when you are stealthed you are using sprint). Thus you move faster when you are actually in combat (a bit closer to sprint speed but not quite) and are able to catch up to ranged who are trying to kite you better.

I agree with your point that 4 piece force master is useless though. As a balance shadow, I never use Project (jedi version of shock). Yeah if someone with 2000 HP and all DoTs already on them left is 8m away from you and you really don't have Force Slow/Force Speed up, then sure, Project/Shock is the right thing to use to burst them down before they get another heal...but that pretty much never happens to me. o_O If it does, my ticking DoTs will likely finish them off regardless. Having 15m range on project/shock seems entirely pointless compared to 15m range on Force Slow which is insanely useful.

@ The guy that posted the 0/9/37 build...just know that you are sacrificing a LOT of DPS from not having Charge Mastery talent from the Kinetic tree. The reason is that Charge Mastery has awesome synergy with the Exploitive Strikes Talent. When your charges crit, it counts as a Force crit, and that gives you a 9 percent critical strike chance. On my Balance Shadow I have that 9 percent crit chance buff running nearly 100 percent of the time simply due to my Technique critting around 75 percent of the time (30 percent natural crit chance + 45 from talent) ..More crit chance helps my Double strikes do way more damage (you get a 50 percent surge buff on that ability from talents), and my spinning strike crits a lot more as well.

Double Strike/Thrash is a huge part of your DPS with this spec, don't ignore them and put 5 points in kinetic/darkness tree and you will see a lot higher numbers with that skill. I wouldn't be surprised if you get 300-500 more damage on average every time you use that skill with just those 5 points. It might not seem like a lot but it adds up from using that skill so much.

For the second build, I agree 100 percent with Ilnox, dark embrace is useless. Go Torment for sure. The spec I included in my last post is perfect, I've been playing it for a ton of warzones and it works without a hitch. Every time I die stupidly, its because of a mistake I made or because I was outgeared, never because of the spec.
It is most definitely stealth speed. I raced a sin with points in it while i didn't.
<Occasional Crops>
Qarum - Alan Rails - Dazkkum - Fake Doors - Eight-six

IInox's Avatar


IInox
07.25.2014 , 05:31 AM | #30
it gives both of them..