Long story short: In order to WIN a match you have to AVOID pvp completely.

Pvp'ers want to PVP, they don't want to avoid combat and team fights, they want to engage in combat all the time and kill the enemy. The team fights are very fun and that's what the vast majority wants.

Maps are designed in a way that the LESS combat engagement the better if you want to win the match.

 

Voidstar: You have to either wipe the enemy team or AVOID combat going for the other door.

Novare: AVOID combat going from node to node to capture it.

Hypergates: Again you have to completely avoid combat to run orbs and capture the pylons.

Civil War and Yavin: Go to empty nodes to capture it and AFK for 15 minutes, that's NOT a good PLAYER VS PLAYER design.

Odessen: This map is the worst, you literally avoid combat at all cost if you want to win.

Huttball is just a terrible mess, it pops way TOO MUCH and it's broken due to de-sync, slow stacking, roots, ultra mobile classes, ping issues (whoever has lower MS ping wins the ball at mid). So people just don't care about winning anymore, they just stand at mid pvp'ing.

 

Some of you will say "if you want team fight queue up for ranked". Well many people don't like ranked for its insane toxicity.

 

My suggestion:

1 - Re-design the maps (not huttball) to have ONE active node only, this way people HAVE TO engage combat in order to win, people will have to learn GROUP combat to win the game.

To win the game you have to either wipe the enemy team in order to capture the node or you coordinate with your team to distract the enemy while someone cap it.

 

2 - Reduce the warzone timer to 10 minutes because there will be cases where neither team will be wiped out and the node won't be captured, whoever has the most kills wins the game. Believe me 10 minutes 100% engaged in combat is a lot of time.

 

Will Bioware do it or even TEST it in the PTR? Most unlikely, but somehow we still have hope.

Long story short: In order to WIN a match you have to AVOID pvp completely.

Pvp'ers want to PVP, they don't want to avoid combat and team fights, they want to engage in combat all the time and kill the enemy. The team fights are very fun and that's what the vast majority wants.

Maps are designed in a way that the LESS combat engagement the better if you want to win the match.

 

Voidstar: You have to either wipe the enemy team or AVOID combat going for the other door.

Novare: AVOID combat going from node to node to capture it.

Hypergates: Again you have to completely avoid combat to run orbs and capture the pylons.

Civil War and Yavin: Go to empty nodes to capture it and AFK for 15 minutes, that's NOT a good PLAYER VS PLAYER design.

Odessen: This map is the worst, you literally avoid combat at all cost if you want to win.

Huttball is just a terrible mess, it pops way TOO MUCH and it's broken due to de-sync, slow stacking, roots, ultra mobile classes, ping issues (whoever has lower MS ping wins the ball at mid). So people just don't care about winning anymore, they just stand at mid pvp'ing.

 

Some of you will say "if you want team fight queue up for ranked". Well many people don't like ranked for its insane toxicity.

 

My suggestion:

1 - Re-design the maps (not huttball) to have ONE active node only, this way people HAVE TO engage combat in order to win, people will have to learn GROUP combat to win the game.

To win the game you have to either wipe the enemy team in order to capture the node or you coordinate with your team to distract the enemy while someone cap it.

 

2 - Reduce the warzone timer to 10 minutes because there will be cases where neither team will be wiped out and the node won't be captured, whoever has the most kills wins the game. Believe me 10 minutes 100% engaged in combat is a lot of time.

 

Will Bioware do it or even TEST it in the PTR? Most unlikely, but somehow we still have hope.

 

if you want bioware to redesign things for warzone that already have , you wont get it

in next warzone design they may implement things but for now it is what it is

I only agree with this partly...

 

First, and I'm probably the only one left in the entire SWTOR game like this , but I do NOT want to just fight the other guy and nothing else matters. I *LIKE* the maps, for the most part, the way they are. In my opinion they are designed fairly well to make it so that you have to combine fighting with also using a bit of "knowing when not to fight strategy" to do well.

 

I do wish that we had a separate option to queue for just 4s though. Once in a great while I am in the mood to just fight (and not that 4s doesn't take strategy as well, but it's different). I also wish bioware had a straight up deathmatch map. Heck, they wouldn't even have to make any new maps for it, just use the same maps and turn off the nodes. But anyway...

 

Voidstar: You have to either wipe the enemy team or AVOID combat going for the other door.

Or, and you actually list this as part of you solution below!, some of the team fights so as to distract and then one or two people plant. I mean, as soon as you have an "objective" at all, someone has to spend at least 8 seconds not fighting, in order to channel the capture.

 

Novare: AVOID combat going from node to node to capture it.

 

This usually happens, in my opinion, because neither team has anyone that wants to guard. This is not a symptom of the map, it's a symptom of the player mentality. If you have somewhat equal teams, most games, in my experience, end up in a fight at one of the nodes, and just one person ends up doing "nothing" guarding the off node. That's because 1 person CAN actually guard a node and keep it long enough for help to arrive if it gets attacked by the enemy team.

 

I compare this to ESO pvp, where the capture mechanic is just whichever side has the most people there. It's literally impossible for one person to stall and wait for help if the other side shows up with 2 or more. In that game, getting bogged down in any fight is pretty much a loss if either of the other two teams are intent on actually winning.

 

But yes, it does suck for that one person on each side that gets stuck guarding the off node... if anyone bothers.

 

Hypergates: Again you have to completely avoid combat to run orbs and capture the pylons.

 

You know that kills count for points in AHG? In fact, if your team is way better at kills, then orbs will hardly matter. They did up the value of orbs a while ago, making orbs actually useful, but if you can't dominate mid with your fighting, you probably are not going to get many orbs. And if you can dominate mid with your fighting, you hardly need orbs.

 

Where I see orb running most useful is at the start, when the other side sends one or two people "out in the open" to our pylon, and then I see MY ENTIRE TEAM rush to the pylon to help take it. Thus leaving mid completely open, and letting the enemy get all the orbs for free, and given them a big lead at the start. That lead can be overcome if my team is, as said, way better at fighting, but those orbs do add up.

 

Another spot where orbs are more useful is in a really close game, since a single orb is worth more than a single kill late in the game. (Early in the game, kills end up counting multiple times, each round, so I think it's still true that an early kill is ultimately worth more points than an orb.)

 

And of course, since orbs count immediately, you an run orbs to "insta win" when your team is close to 600.

 

But none of those orb running things help much if you are behind by 200 points because your team sucks at fighting. I LoL every time when we are behind 150 to 500 and someone is yelling over chat, "Run ORBS!".

 

Civil War and Yavin: Go to empty nodes to capture it and AFK for 15 minutes, that's NOT a good PLAYER VS PLAYER design.

* see Novare Coast

 

Odessen: This map is the worst, you literally avoid combat at all cost if you want to win.

100% agree with this one. Bioware promoted this, before it was actually released, as a "king of the hill type map". Which made me think - "cool, so we can have big fights over the hill, and whoever eventually claims the top, that will be awesome for them!". When in fact, having a big fight over a hill, and *eventually* claiming it gets you almost nothing, because all the magic points have wasted away while you were fighting. Meanwhile, that one person who just stood there doing nothing on another "hill" - yeah, they got all the points.

 

Oh, maybe they could change this map so that hills accumulate points only while people are in them and in combat - these would be potential points (kinda like how kills count in AHG). And THEN, if your team actually takes the hill, they get all those points?

 

Huttball is just a terrible mess, it pops way TOO MUCH and it's broken due to de-sync, slow stacking, roots, ultra mobile classes, ping issues (whoever has lower MS ping wins the ball at mid). So people just don't care about winning anymore, they just stand at mid pvp'ing.

I understand the issue with the desync on the huttball maps, but the map design here is literally your solution below. There is one single spot to center all the fighting around, and bioware even puts up a big glowing pillar to mark it on your map, and make it easy to see from far away.

 

The fact that many, MANY games people just ignore the ball has a lot more to do with the players than the map (well, except for desync - I'll grant that a lot of the "pft, why bother actually playing huttball" is probably due to the desync). But when the ball carrier can run right through the middle of your deathmatch team, and no one even LOOKS at them... that's not a problem with the map not encouraging fighting.

 

Some of you will say "if you want team fight queue up for ranked". Well many people don't like ranked for its insane toxicity.

Nah, you are only supposed to queue ranked if you care about ELO.

 

My suggestion:

1 - Re-design the maps (not huttball) to have ONE active node only, this way people HAVE TO engage combat in order to win, people will have to learn GROUP combat to win the game.

To win the game you have to either wipe the enemy team in order to capture the node or you coordinate with your team to distract the enemy while someone cap it.

 

I think a lot of the reason why people ignore the objective in PvP is because they just don't care about winning at all. Even if you make it so there is only one objective to fight over, people will still be off in never-never land, hunting down their favorite guy on the other side to fight. Or looking for their solo kill achievement. Or running around in mobs with their buddies ganking the weaker members of the other side, or the enemy caught out in the open (remember that guy looking for solo kills? ). Or AFK'ing in the corner to get the magic pixel for completing X matches, or whatever.

 

I think there are just a lot of people that only care about their numbers at the end. That attitude has taken over to be the norm. I mean, I was in a midbie 4s match yesterday, and after we took the first round... there was a sin on our side that pulled two of the enemy away and kited them around, allowing the other 3 of us to easily take down the 2 remaining... then us four gathered and took down the last two. And that sin on our side felt he had to apologize for not having high DPS and "only" keeping half the other team split off and distracted. That sin was easily MVP of our side. I'm not sure what he had to apologize for.

 

2 - Reduce the warzone timer to 10 minutes because there will be cases where neither team will be wiped out and the node won't be captured, whoever has the most kills wins the game. Believe me 10 minutes 100% engaged in combat is a lot of time.

 

I don't care much about the timer, but for people who queue off hours, and only get a pop every half hour or whatever, it would probably suck for them if the uncommon matches they do get were now even shorter.

The maps aren’t bad. It’s just that the rewards for winning are terrible.

 

Your solution is to basically turn PvP into a King of the Hill match? Which would promote more mindless number farming.

 

A good portion of your post is wrong.

 

Voidstar games usually have a guard on the other side, so no, you’re not avoiding combat. You’re just going to a side that has less people because capping would be much easier.

 

The above applies to Novare as well as much as ACW/Yavin. You’re giving very very situational situations (that sounds wrong, but whatever). Most of the time there are people guarding, that’s playing the objective rather than letting the enemy cap then having to fight over the same point that could’ve been captured if everyone didn’t leave.

 

You’re changes aren’t stopping DPS farming but is promoting it.

 

Playing the objective != avoiding PvP

Edited March 11, 2020 by UltraFlashStar

Honestly this is a longtime problem with PvP. People used to complain about this when I played warhammer online, which was a PvP focused game.

 

The problem has less to do with map deisgn and more to do with players. Most don't realize if you try for the objective you'll get lots of combat as long as the other team is doing the same. As someone that plays healer I see the same when it comes to providing peels and defense. People don't realize if they focused on protecting me a bit they would find an endless supply of fights. They'd rather go solo and try to be a 1 man army.

 

SWTOR does have a straightforward way to help fix the problem: conquest. They could tie rewards to behaviours that need encouraging. Some examples:

 

Defend an objective X times

Attack an objective X times

Score X amount of protection points

Score X amount of heals

Score X amount of times in huttball

Carry X amount of orbs

Plant the bomb X amount of times

Win X amount of matches

 

The X value should be set to something that would take a day or week to achieve. I'd go further to suggest splitting the conquest objectives into PvP and PvE sections so people can play how they want.

 

With a big enough carrot for some of these objectives players will start to chase them. Since you can PvP while leveling they could be a good way to help leveling characters hit their conquest goals and address the current problem of many objective goals being too focused on end game. By the time people reach 75, objective play will be like second nature.

The problem isn't the maps, the problem is players today don't bother to learn how to play the maps correctly. There's plenty of fighting to be had if people bothered to learn how to play the maps.

 

Some of you will say "if you want team fight queue up for ranked". Well many people don't like ranked for its insane toxicity.

 

 

This is more in general and not directed at the OP personally, but I'm sick and tired of solo ranked being singled out for toxicity when every other game mode (including regs) has just as much toxicity, if not more.

i wholly disagree with the premise that you avoid PvP when playing objectives, how do you think you cap that node or whatever from the player guarding it? That for me is a weak excuse to justify poor play. There is nothing about objectives that avoids PvP, nothing.

 

The map are designed to encourage MORE than just mindless death match. You get PvP plus some tactics. You have to think a little. One could very easily make the argument that playing objectives is harder and requires thought, not just a hulk smash mentality.

 

If played right by all parties it actually encourages it as you know where the fights will be. It creates one vs one opportunities, it gives you a chance to single handedly affect the outcomes.

 

In short, the maps are not the problem, the player base is. This is for many reasons, boredom, lack of new maps, and a number of other things i wont get into to avoid a generational war. This is not unique to SWTOR either.

 

At the end of the day only one number matters, win or lose, everything else is eye candy. Play how you wish, its your dime, but lets stop blaming bioware for our own choices shall we?

I don't think the reason is that the maps are bad as I said in the other post the reason are others

 

1) sit at objective if the enemy ignore it is boring and is worth to do only if winning means something

 

2) trying to cap or do objective take away from DPS and fight per se

dps and fight show on the scoreboard and give you bragging right in the mind of people

(bigger dps number bigger heal number) and winning means nothing so why bother

(for example when I defend objective alone and nobody steal it as I fend off the 2 or 3 that come to try... I end up with a pathetic score and nobody even bothers to give me a medal! they practically won because I guarded and got bored for 7 out of the 10 min! BUT NOBODY CARE - NOT ONE MEDAL)

 

3) overall fighting is the same in all minigame while minigame tactic is different every type of game

why people would bother to learn 6-7 different tactics and rotation when winning mean absolutely nothing and give you no gear or anything at all they go for the fun part just learn to fight (1-2 rotation at best) and jump in the middle.

 

Plus if you do objective you need to listen to people preaching you when you mess up or when you do something different then "their way". Self-proclaimed expert in the field that has to tell you what to do, their way! and get mad if you don't do as they say often leave halfway so there is really no point in listening to them.

 

so to recap

1) some objective can be boring and people that waited 5-15 min to pop want to fight and have fun (not wait other 5-10 min at objective)

2) people like to see concrete result/number at end of match DPS is easy to compare defending/objective won't really show up on scoreboard (you get more medal fighting and ignoring objective most of the time)

3) it's easier to ignore cap and people want to do easier stuff not being told what to do by strangers

LAST BUT NOT LEAST 4) WIN MEAN NOTHING no reward no gear no material N O T H I N G so why bother just have fun! (and for most pvper "have fun = fight" not "wait at an objective or follow orders from a jerk")

 

it would be different if winning gives you material/gear or even cartel coins then people would actually care to win

Edited March 11, 2020 by Pekish

I don't think the reason is because the maps are bad as I said in the other post the reason are others

 

1) sit at objective if the enemy ignore it is boring and is worth to do only if winning means something

 

2) trying to cap or do objective take away from DPS and fight per se and dps and fight show on the scoreboard and give you bragging right in the mind of people (bigger dps number bigger heal number) and winning mean nothing so why bother

 

3) overall fighting is the same in all minigame while minigame tactic is different every type of game so why people would bother to learn 6-7 different tactic and rotation when winning mean absolutely nothing and give you no gear or anything at all just learn to fight (1-2 rotation at best) and jump in the middle

 

so to recap

1) some objective can be boring and people that waited 15 min to pop want to fight and have fun

2) people like to see concrete result/number at end of match DPS is easy to compare defending/objective won't really show up on scoreboard (you get more medal fighting and ignoring cup most of the time)

3) it's easier to ignore cap and people want to do easier stuff

LAST BUT NOT LEAST 4) WIN MEAN NOTHING no reward no gear no material N O T H I N G

 

#1, Yes, guarding can be boring, but the better questions is why are people beating their head against the wall at another objective that long if they arent getting it? Thats just more bad play. If i feel like cant get a node ill shift to another.

 

#2 If you base your performance or grow your ego based on dps numbers or damage output, thats up to you but the reality is that the only number that matters is W vs L. This is not deathmatch, this is not battle royale. I could care less if i have top damage in a loss, it was still a loss. You can have top dps, ill take the win, every single time.

 

#3 Easier, based on what? Ignoring the way the game is designed isnt easier, its dumber.

 

#4 I agree 100% that the rewards should be better, they should be on par with FPs or other PvE content, 100% correct, but if you are playing PvP for the shinies, youre misguided. I have some nice PvP rewards, i never use them. They are much more about look at me and encourage the poor behavior we see in ranked such as win trading and throwing. PvP is about wins or losses, everything else is secondary or ego driven, or should be.

 

This is one of those things that i feel the time for rational discussion has passed, people are going to do what they are going to do, but please stop trying to blame others for your decisions. No one makes you play that way, least of all the game which hasnt changed. We have, as players, we are the problem... fortunately that means we are also the solution, but i dont expect to see one any time soon.

I always play the objective so you presuming that I don't is part of the problem

 

I play objective but I can see why people don't and can analyze it differently than you that just say people are dumb I can come up with a lot of reason why people do that and honestly, they are as reasonable as yours "I play to win" true pvp ROAR play to win those idiots dps braggers <very mature

 

reasons that you seem don't want to accept but that are real for many!

once you get off your horse "people sux" and stop looking down from your ivory tower of "TRUE PVPER" and accept that people do that for a good reason (actually 4 as i mentioned) maybe we can try to change it (starting with the reward!)

 

otherwise keep thinking you are better nobler more focused than other people if that is what makes you hard to them is dps that make them hard I don't see any difference between yours and their attitude.

Lack of understanding of another way of play that is different than what you think is right is part of the problem

Edited March 11, 2020 by Pekish

The problem is that you can’t make one match of PvP reward the small amount as an Operation completion. Even the PvP daily doesn’t even equal one SM completion.

Odessen: This map is the worst.

you say you hate odessen

My suggestion:

1 - Re-design the maps (not huttball) to have ONE active node only, this way people HAVE TO engage combat in order to win, people will have to learn GROUP combat to win the game.

but then you want to turn every map basically into odessen

Edited March 11, 2020 by Kirpputori

I don't get it. If you want no objectives, except to solely kill people, queue ranked. Edited March 12, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

I don't get it. If you want no objectives except to solely kill people, queue ranked.

 

Thank you.

I don't get it. If you want no objectives except to solely kill people, queue ranked.

 

Agreed

queue wintrading

Agreed

Thank you.

 

.....

Edited March 12, 2020 by jimmorrisson

So... the maps are bad cause they require you to care about objectives rather than deathmatch?

 

Color me impressed. Probably the most ridiculous thread ive seen in this forum so far!

Edited March 12, 2020 by Nemmar

Long story short: In order to WIN a match you have to AVOID pvp completely.

Pvp'ers want to PVP, they don't want to avoid combat and team fights, they want to engage in combat all the time and kill the enemy. The team fights are very fun and that's what the vast majority wants.

Maps are designed in a way that the LESS combat engagement the better if you want to win the match.

 

Voidstar: You have to either wipe the enemy team or AVOID combat going for the other door.

Novare: AVOID combat going from node to node to capture it.

Hypergates: Again you have to completely avoid combat to run orbs and capture the pylons.

Civil War and Yavin: Go to empty nodes to capture it and AFK for 15 minutes, that's NOT a good PLAYER VS PLAYER design.

Odessen: This map is the worst, you literally avoid combat at all cost if you want to win.

Huttball is just a terrible mess, it pops way TOO MUCH and it's broken due to de-sync, slow stacking, roots, ultra mobile classes, ping issues (whoever has lower MS ping wins the ball at mid). So people just don't care about winning anymore, they just stand at mid pvp'ing.

 

Some of you will say "if you want team fight queue up for ranked". Well many people don't like ranked for its insane toxicity.

 

My suggestion:

1 - Re-design the maps (not huttball) to have ONE active node only, this way people HAVE TO engage combat in order to win, people will have to learn GROUP combat to win the game.

To win the game you have to either wipe the enemy team in order to capture the node or you coordinate with your team to distract the enemy while someone cap it.

 

2 - Reduce the warzone timer to 10 minutes because there will be cases where neither team will be wiped out and the node won't be captured, whoever has the most kills wins the game. Believe me 10 minutes 100% engaged in combat is a lot of time.

 

Will Bioware do it or even TEST it in the PTR? Most unlikely, but somehow we still have hope.

 

This is the dumbest map analysis I've ever read and I feel bad you typed it all out.

.....

 

Wintrading is considerably lessened by having a larger number of people in the queue.

 

And for the sake of argument, let's say wintrading was rampant. You still get far better rewards in ranked vs regs -- win or lose.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

This is the dumbest map analysis I've ever read and I feel bad you typed it all out.

 

Yeah, basically this.

The reason the attitude of the people changed is due to their priorities. The real pvpers left long ago and the people that que now for regs are mostly there for conquest probably. The reason is that bioware spread out the rewards everywhere. You get fragments, rxp, gear etc from different sources so people use up all possibilites. The game modes have become just farm places for a higher purpose, players do not care about the modes themselves anymore.

I don't get it. If you want no objectives, except to solely kill people, queue ranked.

 

Great post

This is the dumbest map analysis I've ever read and I feel bad you typed it all out.

 

I wanted to reply to the OP, but I couldn’t find the words for it with insulting them too much.

 

I think this post pretty much sums up what I think about the original post.

The reason the attitude of the people changed is due to their priorities. The real pvpers left long ago and the people that que now for regs are mostly there for conquest probably. The reason is that bioware spread out the rewards everywhere. You get fragments, rxp, gear etc from different sources so people use up all possibilites. The game modes have become just farm places for a higher purpose, players do not care about the modes themselves anymore.

 

That’s overly simplistic reasoning. There are way more factors involved and the ones you’ve listed are mainly symptoms of the underlying problems that have led us to this point.