I'm confused as to why these both exist. They both provide the same tactical benefit (180 degree turn), they both have the same cooldown, they both have the same Evasion bonus, they both have the same upgrade tree.

 

Is there a substantial difference between their maneuvers? Does one have a much wider range of motion than the other, making it perhaps more risky to use? Does one result in substantially different translational position at the end of it?

 

I would think that any difference in their maneuvers would result in one being preferred over the other--but honestly I haven't played with them enough to develop a preference for either. Regardless, if there is some consensus as to one being better, then I would think the one that isn't preferred needs a buff, such as a shorter cooldown or different upgrade options.

 

It's especially frustrating on the T1 and T3 Scout, which can have either of them. I would've much rather their engine options included 4 distinctly different options, instead of 2 near-duplicates.

 

It seems like the easiest fix to create some more meaningful distinction would be just to change the final upgrade options of one of the two turns. Instead of both granting engine speed, make one offer engine capacity like Retro Thrusters.

IMO there is a substantial difference between the two :

 

Korg turn is a "loop roll" as described in wookiepedia aka a roll to the side where u end up facing 180 degrees from starting position.

 

Snap turn however immediately turns the craft about face 180 degrees and boosts for a short time

 

Snap Turn is my favorite engine maneuver hands down. Whether it be boosting straight into an object and turning back at the last second, or boosting past an enemy and then immediately ending up on their tail.... its effing great IMO

 

Korg turn is not bad either, but it does take a little getting used to. It was my first EM choice and only de-throned for BR (never swapped it back in after the nerf)

Is there a substantial difference between their maneuvers? Does one have a much wider range of motion than the other, making it perhaps more risky to use? Does one result in substantially different translational position at the end of it?

Yes, Koiogran Turn lifts your ship upwards and over its original position (a 180-degree flip up and over your head). Snap Turn stops you in place when you press it and twists you craft around (in place) 180-degrees. There is no vertical motion up or down and you don't physically turn left or right - you just twist 180-degrees from your original orientation (stopping on a dime). Snap Turn has a much smaller range of motion than the other. I prefer Snap Turn for this reason: It's much less risky since you don't have to worry about anything other than what's directly behind you (similar to Retro Thrusters). With Koiogran Turn, you need to make sure the area above your ship is clear when you hit it. Under a satellite, this means rolling your ship upside down.

 

I haven't played with them enough to develop a preference for either.

I have many hundreds of games played using these two maneuvers, and I can tell you I heavily prefer Snap Turn. There's so much less risk involved and its easier to stay "on the satellite" using it. You can continue to break missiles and prevent an objective from being captured. Sure, this can be done with Koiogran Turn, but it's far less risky using Snap Turn.

 

Regardless, if there is some consensus as to one being better, then I would think the one that isn't preferred needs a buff, such as a shorter cooldown or different upgrade options.

Different upgrade options sound neat, I think I'd much prefer that over more cooldown tweaking.

 

It's especially frustrating on the T1 and T3 Scout, which can have either of them. I would've much rather their engine options included 4 distinctly different options, instead of 2 near-duplicates.

Agreed. Many ships could do with a larger variety of useful engine maneuvers.

Edited June 25, 2014 by TrinityLyre

I haven't used Snap turn myself, but from what I've seen when looking at people using it, its *seems* that Snap Turn "launches" you further behind than Koiogran Turn (more or less like Retro Thrusters) and leaves you in afterburners speed unlike Koiogran that leaves you at about the normal speed.

 

If I'd were to sum this up, I'd say that Snap Turn seems to be a "speed-ed up" Koiogran Turn.

So perhaps Snap Turn is supposed to be superior to K-turn, and thus that is why Snap Turn is only available to Scouts.

 

But that doesn't explain why K-turn is also available on Scouts then. It'd be better if T1 and T3 Scouts had Retro Thrusters or even Rotational Thrusters instead.

Well, in my experience with these, the difference is the distance covered. Snap turn has an extended boost after the 180, there Korg does not. So, if you just want a quick 180, but not to cover much distance, Korg is the way to go. This is preferable in some cases, such as close to obstacles. Also, ive used snap turn and ended up IN FRONT of the person i was trying to get behind. not exactly what i wanted. (I.E, boosted past them head to head, hit snap turn, and ended up flying right past them again.)

You really surprised me with this one Nemarus, for how much you talk about all the different ship builds and components I would have thought you had played enough to try everything.

 

The differences between the two can be seen with only a few games played with each, snap turn shoots you back further and is much easier to use (self destruction wise). Snap also turns you around faster which lets you start shooting quicker. The only advantage to K-turn is that it uses less are to do the maneuver in, so it is useful for breaking missiles while staying on a satelite, however its so easy to kill yourself with it around stuff I don't even like it for this unless you have a charged plating build.

You really surprised me with this one Nemarus, for how much you talk about all the different ship builds and components I would have thought you had played enough to try everything.

 

The differences between the two can be seen with only a few games played with each, snap turn shoots you back further and is much easier to use (self destruction wise). Snap also turns you around faster which lets you start shooting quicker. The only advantage to K-turn is that it uses less are to do the maneuver in, so it is useful for breaking missiles while staying on a satelite, however its so easy to kill yourself with it around stuff I don't even like it for this unless you have a charged plating build.

 

Oh, I tried them early on. But I did not really find the 180 turn to fit with my playstyle, so I put them out of mind. And obviously Barrel Roll was too vital a travel skill in the pre-2.6 days.

 

After 2.6, I became a Power Dive convert. I like that it can be used as a makeshift travel skill (with zero energy cost) and that its short cool down allows me to use other shields besides Distortion Field, which I've never found particularly engaging. Being an old X-wing fan, I love Directional and Shield to Engine Converter, and Power Dive lets me get away with using those.

 

It sounds like Snap Turn is much more highly regarded than K-turn. I think either K-turn should be relegated to Strikes (as an inferior version of Snap Turn) and replaced with something else on Scouts, or it should get some meaningful distinction in its upgrade tree.

Oh, I tried them early on. But I did not really find the 180 turn to fit with my playstyle, so I put them out of mind. And obviously Barrel Roll was too vital a travel skill in the pre-2.6 days.

 

After 2.6, I became a Power Dive convert. I like that it can be used as a makeshift travel skill (with zero energy cost) and that its short cool down allows me to use other shields besides Distortion Field, which I've never found particularly engaging. Being an old X-wing fan, I love Directional and Shield to Engine Converter, and Power Dive lets me get away with using those.

 

It sounds like Snap Turn is much more highly regarded than K-turn. I think either K-turn should be relegated to Strikes (as an inferior version of Snap Turn) and replaced with something else on Scouts, or it should get some meaningful distinction in its upgrade tree.

 

Yes lets make the inferior ship even more inferior sounds great.

 

 

My preference would just bring K-turn CD down, Snap turn is still better to use, but K turn now has a reason to exist. Power dive would still be superior for its ability to be used as a Suedo Travel Power.

as others have described there really is a big difference between the two. the benefit with snap turn is it's so much easier to re-acquirer your target. it doesn't 'shake' the nose of the ship as much as kologrin does. (skybolt)

 

with kologrin you flip upside down and then rotate 180 degrees. this extra step causes the nose of your ship to wobble or shake and makes it harder to control. if you take the increased turning ability it helps but still takes a bit of getting used to.

 

I use both depending on the ship but honestly wouldn't mind seeing kologrin being dropped and snap turn used as a replacement.

 

edit: actually, K-turn works very well on a strike. because the strike is supposed to be so much heavier the shake is far less than in a skybolt. also, the ship types are designed to have different flight characteristics, so having different turn options really does make sense.

Edited June 25, 2014 by magecutter

Yes lets make the inferior ship even more inferior sounds great.

 

 

My preference would just bring K-turn CD down, Snap turn is still better to use, but K turn now has a reason to exist. Power dive would still be superior for its ability to be used as a Suedo Travel Power.

 

I'm saying K-turn needs to be buffed, unless the devs intend for it to be outright inferior to Snap Turn.

 

I personally wouldn't mind if K-turn was moved down to a 10 second cooldown. It would buff the Strikes, and it would give a quick cooldown missile-break to those who don't like the high-risk of using Power Dive.

i find Snap Turn can lend itself to a lot of cool, tactical moves. not least of which can be luring enemies back towards friendly gunships in TDM

(OT: is there such a thing as a 'friendly' gunship? or just gunships that can't shoot you?)

i find Koiogran Turn gets me dead.

 

for two things supposedly "identical", my experience is somewhat skewed.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Nem- Koi Turn being a 10 sec CD could be justified. It's not as strong a travel skill as Power Dive (read: not a travel skill at all) and has a very obvious animation.

 

One thing to counterbalance that, though, is maybe remove Koi Turn from the t1 and t2 scouts. It's a much lower risk move than Power Dive, and I think giving those scouts more missile breaks could be a dangerous proposition. Spending Koi Turn on a whim is much less risk for the same reward, compared to potentially reloading your secondary ammo with Power Dive- You may not always be in a situation where you can safely Power Dive out of a missile lock.

Edited June 26, 2014 by LilSaihah