Those of you who are Carnage specced may have noticed this, especially if you have done many operations. I first noticed it on the world boss on Belsavis, and then confirmed it later against Karagga in Karagga's Palace and on Graj in the Eternity Vault.

 

Ataru Form is not affected by increased hitbox size. A larger enemy typically has a larger 'hitbox' at which range is calculated; for these large enemies, being in melee range is not calculated from their center but from their edges. All melee attacks work this way on these enemies (Want to see? Go fight a Wild Rancor in the Belsavis Bonus Area. Other enemies are also large enough and easy to get to but this is the one I most quickly remember). Even Ranged attacks have a larger range due to a boss's increased hitbox. Essentially, it is expected that every form of attack is affected by the hitbox size.

 

The proc from Ataru Form, however, is not. Against a larger enemy, being in range for your melee attacks does not mean you are in range for Ataru Form. This is extremely easy to test. Stand at the outer edge of a giant enemy and use Massacre. You'll attack him as normal, deal damage, spend rage, etc. But you won't get your Ataru Form proc, even though it is supposed to be guaranteed. In fact, if you continue hitting the mob at this range, you'll find that you never get an Ataru Form proc. Ever.

 

"Big Deal," some of you may say. "Just stand closer." While, at the moment, that is obviously the only recourse against the bug (and since Ataru Form says nothing in the tooltip about it functioning different from every other single attack in the game, I assume it is indeed a bug and not a feature), it isn't sufficient and doesn't mean the bug should not be taken seriously. Against a boss like Karagga, being in range for Ataru Form can mean being required to stand in deadly, deadly fire. And when soloing, large enemies cannot even be within range. As soon as you move closer to them, they move back a step to be at the edge of their hitbox as well. This is easily demonstrated by the Wild Rancor mobs on the Belsavis Bonus Area. It is impossible to hit these enemies with Ataru Form.

 

And being unable to get Ataru procs gimps the Carnage spec immeasurably, a spec that is already (by some metrics) inferior damage-wise to Rage and especially Annihilation.

 

This is an easily reproducible bug that needs to be better known. Watch out if you plan on going Carnage, and Bioware: you need to get on this.

Edited January 24, 2012 by ProjectAwesome

Those of you who are Carnage specced may have noticed this, especially if you have done many operations. I first noticed it on the world boss on Belsavis, and then confirmed it later against Karagga in Karagga's Palace and on Graj in the Eternity Vault.

 

Ataru Form is not affected by increased hitbox size. A larger enemy typically has a larger 'hitbox' at which range is calculated; for these large enemies, being in melee range is not calculated from their center but from their edges. All melee attacks work this way on these enemies (Want to see? Go fight a Wild Rancor in the Belsavis Bonus Area. Other enemies are also large enough and easy to get to but this is the one I most quickly remember). Even Ranged attacks have a larger range due to a boss's increased hitbox. Essentially, it is expected that every form of attack is affected by the hitbox size.

 

The proc from Ataru Form, however, is not. Against a larger enemy, being in range for your melee attacks does not mean you are in range for Ataru Form. This is extremely easy to test. Stand at the outer edge of a giant enemy and use Massacre. You'll attack him as normal, deal damage, spend rage, etc. But you won't get your Ataru Form proc, even though it is supposed to be guaranteed. In fact, if you continue hitting the mob at this range, you'll find that you never get an Ataru Form proc. Ever.

 

"Big Deal," some of you may say. "Just stand closer." While, at the moment, that is obviously the only recourse against the bug (and since Ataru Form says nothing in the tooltip about it functioning different from every other single attack in the game, I assume it is indeed a bug and not a feature), it isn't sufficient and doesn't mean the bug should not be taken seriously. Against a boss like Karagga, being in range for Ataru Form can mean being required to stand in deadly, deadly fire. And when soloing, large enemies cannot even be within range. As soon as you move closer to them, they move back a step to be at the edge of their hitbox as well. This is easily demonstrated by the Wild Rancor mobs on the Belsavis Bonus Area. It is impossible to hit these enemies with Ataru Form.

 

And being unable to get Ataru procs gimps the Carnage spec immeasurably, a spec that is already (by some metrics) inferior damage-wise to Rage and especially Annihilation.

 

This is an easily reproducible bug that needs to be better known. Watch out if you plan on going Carnage, and Bioware: you need to get on this.

 

Ive seen people post on this, Are you sure its a bug? Have you tried zooming all the way out to see if the Ataru proc is actually showing up towards the top of the mob? It could be you just cant see the number.

Ive seen people post on this, Are you sure its a bug? Have you tried zooming all the way out to see if the Ataru proc is actually showing up towards the top of the mob? It could be you just cant see the number.

When Ataru Form Procs you also get the Blood Frenzy buff if the buff is not on. The complete lack of such a buff for 20 seconds of Massacre-ing an enemy is a pretty strong indicator by itself that Ataru Form is not proccing, since Blood Frenzy is a 100% chance on Ataru Proc and Ataru Proc is a 100% chance on Massacre. Edited January 24, 2012 by ProjectAwesome

Those of you who have experienced this bug, write up a bug report in-game! You can even just copy-paste my original post if you are so inclined.

 

Hell, if you haven't encountered it, do it anyways.

Carnage is garbage for DPS in PvE anyways.

Carnage is garbage for DPS in PvE anyways.

 

And that means the bug shouldn't be fixed why? Even if it is true, which without DPS meters, you can't even really prove?

Carnage is garbage for DPS in PvE anyways.

 

You're so incredibly wrong I cannot possibly begin to explain how bad you are.

 

 

 

Also, this needs to be addressed. maxmeleerangeisbestmeleerange.jpg

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kibaken

Sigh.. I love the Carnage spec but this is just another reason to stay Annihilation. Carnage's DPS was already terrible in comparison.. Yes I know there are no combat logs and no DPS meters but the most effective way to test your DPS right now is to get saved to a Hard/Nightmare instance on Council and killing Marauders while letting the fight enrage/reset afterward. I found that in half rakata/columi w/columi weapons the Carnage Spec was a good 200 DPS below Annihilation while self buffed and stimmed over the course of ~100 tests(I used recorded videos as well as a virtual stopwatch keybound to my ~ key). Carnage did 1400 DPS while Annihilation surpassed 1600. Carnage was 1300 and Annihilation was around 1500 when I was in tionese/columi gear so it's not even scaling that much better than Annihilation. This bug just makes Carnage a terrible spec for everything but Pylons(EV) and Double Bounty Hunters(KP).

the whole marauder class is a joke its 50% jugg and 50% wannabe darth mauls.

yea OP is right,i did report the same thing in few topics in the past week or so,but i actually didnt know the reason behind it till i read this,i noticed my blood frenzy and ataru form strikes not going on for a minute or two during fights in EV,(prio to 1.1) especially annihlation droid,and gharj...and yea this bug is really bad for carnage,,since you wont get blood frenzy nor excutioner procs,which beside the damage lost from ataru form is quite a hit for the spec.

 

and on a side for someone said another reason to stick to annihlation,you know that Bleedout talent there is bugged too?;p but yea in general i hope they fix those bugs soon,am sticking to rage atm,while i love the spec,i am more comfortable in fights with boss moving with the other 2 specs

You're so incredibly wrong I cannot possibly begin to explain how bad you are.

 

 

 

Also, this needs to be addressed. maxmeleerangeisbestmeleerange.jpg

 

 

No he's not. Carnage doesn't compete with Annihilation and just barely competes with other classes. Don't get me wrong I love the spec to death but the numbers just aren't on par. When I rolled a Marauder I was hoping Carnage would be roughly equivalent to Annihilation because I'm a big fan of direct damage as opposed to DoTs. Hopefully Bioware gets around to balancing the spec eventually.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

No he's not. Carnage doesn't compete with Annihilation and just barely competes with other classes. Don't get me wrong I love the spec to death but the numbers just aren't on par. When I rolled a Marauder I was hoping Carnage would be roughly equivalent to Annihilation because I'm a big fan of direct damage as opposed to DoTs. Hopefully Bioware gets around to balancing the spec eventually.

 

I would love to know where you're getting that information. The sithwarrior.com spreadsheets, last I checked, were riddled with bugs.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kibaken

I'm not using the spreadsheets. They're absolute crap right now. In-game testing is far more accurate until we get combat logs to figure out all the variables the spreadsheets are missing. A difference of 200 DPS(~1400 vs ~1600) isn't even close to being within the margin of error. If you're raiding/opsing(?) you're Annihilation spec, otherwise you're a burden to the group.

 

P.S. - Sith Warrior's Marauder threads have maybe 5 good players posting in them. If you read the threads you'll be disgusted by how many stupid people are posting nonsense about what they "feel" is good for DPSing. The lack of any compendium also makes it clear that the SW admins don't care about Marauder theorycraft. Every other class has an admin maintaining a compendium with accurate and thorough information.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

I'm not using the spreadsheets. They're absolute crap right now. In-game testing is far more accurate until we get combat logs to figure out all the variables the spreadsheets are missing. A difference of 200 DPS(~1400 vs ~1600) isn't even close to being within the margin of error. If you're raiding/opsing(?) you're Annihilation spec, otherwise you're a burden to the group.

 

P.S. - Sith Warrior's Marauder threads have maybe 5 good players posting in them. If you read the threads you'll be disgusted by how many stupid people are posting nonsense about what they "feel" is good for DPSing. The lack of any compendium also makes it clear that the SW admins don't care about Marauder theorycraft. Every other class has an admin maintaining a compendium with accurate and thorough information.

 

I'd still like to see said proof of Annihilation being the end-all be-all DPS tree. Or is it just a "feeling?"

 

I consider myself one of those "good" Marauders and, after playing both Annihilation and Carnage I've found them both to be on-par in PvE with Rage feeling slightly weaker.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kibaken

Let me explain why I feel in-game testing on Nightmare Council Marauders is the most accurate way to theorycraft at present.

 

1. Nightmare Council mobs are the exact same as every other boss mob in current ops in terms of how much damage they take from various attacks. I confirmed this by recording myself during a few fights and watching approximately how much damage each attack was doing with the various buffs/procs I had. I then stacked the same buffs and procs and performed the same attack to see if the damage range was the same.

 

2. Spreadsheets/Sims/Mathcrafts do not have all the variables required to be accurate. Things like the "Bleedout" bug are prime examples of this. We simply cannot rely on math to reach a reasonable conclusion when we're missing parts of the equation.

 

3. We have no other options. I laughed at people that relied extensively on in-game testing in WoW theorycraft but at present that's all we have in SWTOR. When it comes down to either testing on Nightmare Council Marauders or simply going off random and entirely stupid gut feeling I would rather choose the former.

 

Edit: I've deleted most of the raw footage I used for testing since it was taking up a ridiculous amount of space on my hard drive. If Bioware doesn't make an announcement about some sort of DPS meter or Combat Log before February I'll be collecting more footage to make a thread supporting my testing method.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

I completely agree that in-game testing is the only reliable tool we have at this time. I had a hunter app a year or so ago who relied on in-game theory-crafting; I'm sure you can imagine how that went; I couldn't believe the guy was serious.

 

I find your method hard to understand, though. My testing involved identical elite mobs and recording how long it took to kill them (I had a bored friend pocket heal me so Cloak of Pain wasn't necessary).

 

Did you simply compare the damage each ability actually did? If you could elaborate I'd appreciate it. After my testing (I ran about 10 of each spec waiting to insure all CDs were available) I found that, on average, Annihilation could down the same mob 3-4 seconds faster. Considering bleeds tick every 1 seconds and Carnage's damage is limited to the 1.5 second GCD I assumed that to be the main cause of the timing disparity.

 

Edit: Also, I have a feeling that DPS disparity may be in large part due to the Bleedout bug. An extra 30% damage to all bleeds will go a long way, especially in a Nightmare mode fight.

 

Given BioWare's socialist everyclassisequal mantra I would find it hard to believe they'd allow one spec to be completely above another.

 

Edit 2:

 

Edit: I've deleted most of the raw footage I used for testing since it was taking up a ridiculous amount of space on my hard drive. If Bioware doesn't make an announcement about some sort of DPS meter or Combat Log before February I'll be collecting more footage to make a thread supporting my testing method.

 

They have already announced a personal combat log; I believe they're including it in the next content update (I think they said March).

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kibaken

I'd still like to see said proof of Annihilation being the end-all be-all DPS tree. Or is it just a "feeling?"

 

My guild didn't get bugged on Nightmare Pylons last week and as a result I didn't get a chance to test with my updated gear. Here is the data from the last time I tested in ~Full Columi gear with Champion MH/Columi OH. From what I remember I was at approx 13% crit(from crit rating), ~29% total crit rating, ~75.5 crit damage, and approx +90 damage from power. Next time I test I'll be taking screenshots of my gear setup.

 

Note: This is self buffed with our own 5% dmg buff and a Rakata Might Stim. I used a +300 power on-use trinket. I also timed myself from the moment that the scrolling combat text for Force Charge's damage showed up on the screen(approx half-way through the charge animation). I stopped timing myself when the mob's health was 0 on my bottom target health bar.

 

Carnage

 

1. 1426

2. 1329

3. 1356

4. 1412

5. 1384

6. 1397

7. 1340

8. 1378

9. 1406

10. 1312

11. 1287

12. 1448

13. 1411

14. 1347

15. 1353

16. 1338

17. 1387

18. 1423

19. 1403

20. 1472

 

Annihilation

 

1. 1538

2. 1489

3. 1593

4. 1511

5. 1545

6. 1561

7. 1471

8. 1539

9. 1523

10. 1503

11. 1567

12. 1608

13. 1587

14. 1573

15. 1497

16. 1584

17. 1536

18. 1619

19. 1598

20. 1519

 

Edit: It may be entirely possible that my specific gear setup favored Annihilation and that a change in stats might cause Carnage to experience significant gains.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong? Just play the spec you like...

I find your method hard to understand, though. My testing involved identical elite mobs and recording how long it took to kill them (I had a bored friend pocket heal me so Cloak of Pain wasn't necessary).

 

What I did was I watched the video for the damage numbers to various abilities. For example I would record how much damage my Annihilate did over the course of 10-20 uses on a boss without any special buffs or procs and then use Annihilate on a NC Marauder 10-20 times. I noticed that the damage was the same and moved on to Rupture and Deadly Saber ticks as well as Force Scream, Massacre, and Ataru Procs. Literally every single skill hit just as hard on a Council Marauder.

 

The nightmare council marauders hit for nothing and you can simply channel hatred to heal yourself back up to full after killing one. The fight auto-resets and respawns any dead mobs after the "enrage" and nothing will attack you unless you attack it first. It's the perfect testing environment.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong? Just play the spec you like...

 

Because politics.

 

On a more serious note, imo, you're right. I for one highly, highly doubt being one spec over the other will mean an overall difference in progression. That being said, unfortunately my guild was slow to level and we haven't gotten that far in hard/nightmare so I could be completely wrong.

 

 

 

What I did was I watched the video for the damage numbers to various abilities. For example I would record how much damage my Annihilate did over the course of 10-20 uses on a boss without any special buffs or procs and then use Annihilate on a NC Marauder 10-20 times. I noticed that the damage was the same and moved on to Rupture and Deadly Saber ticks as well as Force Scream, Massacre, and Ataru Procs. Literally every single skill hit just as hard on a Council Marauder.

 

 

Hm. I still don't fully understand it but I do see where you're coming from. For the numbers you posted above what was the time differential like?

Hm. I still don't fully understand it but I do see where you're coming from. For the numbers you posted above what was the time differential like?

 

It was actually a fairly significant difference. Nightmare Council Marauders have approx 114.5k health(can't remember the exact number off the top of my head but I did use exact values during testing and rounded to the nearest whole DPS). With Carnage I think the average was around 85 seconds per kill and with Annihilation it was around 75 seconds per kill. One thing to keep in mind is that Annihilation will test more poorly the shorter the fight length while Carnage will stay relatively the same. Annihilation's damage is a lot higher once you get the 3-stack Annihilator buff and have the chance to use Berserk a few times.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

Carnage is garbage for DPS in PvE anyways.

 

Can you for the love of god stop QQing and actully for ONCE come with a constructive feedback on a post? Seriously, so much hate, why are you even here? Stop posting if you have nothing of value to add.

 

Every damn post i read you write some re****ed s**t like this.

Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong? Just play the spec you like...

To be fair - this comment is a little naive even if its intentions are good.

 

I cant speak to everyones motivations but I'll try to summarise a little.

 

Raiders (people who Run Operations) tend on avg to be a set of 'serious' gamers.

There is more at play with this subset than 'Just seeing the content & having fun' - see: The spirit of competition for example - Others like to test themselves against the challenges put in front them & push themselves to new heights by improving everytime they try them. Heck even 'Fame or Infamy' effect them. Us.

 

Probably the most important factor for Raiders is Time. Time is Money (Literally In Subscription Based MMO's) and often both Time & Money are in short supply (to the avg household gamer anyways) as both are influenced by external forces outside the team that they cannot control - Friendships, Family, Studying, Work - Others hobbies etc.

 

This puts a certain pressure on people to complete thier weekly gaming sessions in the most efficient way possible - quick & clean.

 

Operations are designed to require a 'TEAM EFFORT' and Class Specs that are underperforming through no fault of the player can generate an uneccessary burden on the group as whole. For some people it feels personal if your toon is underperforming and being a part of a team in this way can leave the individual quite unhappy.

 

Becoming a Raider type, your putting upon yourself a certain level of responsability not just to yourself to become a better player, but taking on a responability to your other Team mates because your playing with THIER Time & Money also and by stepping up to the plate in this manner your basically saying 'I agree to be a part of this team & to abide by the Rules & Guidelines this team has laid out before me'.

Not living up to your end of the bargain can cause deep rifts in even the closest of friends & family because it feels like an abuse of trust. I've seen that 1st hand with people from my Old WoW Guild.

 

To people like us, being a Raider in a Team doing Operations is a equally important as being a player in team that play Football instead of computer games.

Often the catchphrase 'Its just a game, chill out' gets banded about by people who dont understand or care about these basic concepts that Raiders subscribe too and is often the biggest insult a Raider can be given because, lets face it - NOTHING is 'Just a Game' where money is involved.

By all means play what you like & have fun, just be careful who you aim your comments at.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Avengelyne
Grammar.

It was actually a fairly significant difference. Nightmare Council Marauders have approx 114.5k health(can't remember the exact number off the top of my head but I did use exact values during testing and rounded to the nearest whole DPS). With Carnage I think the average was around 85 seconds per kill and with Annihilation it was around 75 seconds per kill. One thing to keep in mind is that Annihilation will test more poorly the shorter the fight length while Carnage will stay relatively the same. Annihilation's damage is a lot higher once you get the 3-stack Annihilator buff and have the chance to use Berserk a few times.

 

I assume you used the same gear for when you yourself tried both specs out. If you tracked the dps using what ive seen other people use: a DPS race with someone else to see who can beat those mobs first thats; not a very accurate way of doing it.

 

Both specs utilize stats very differently. Using the same gear only means one of those specs is getting the advantage, and in the Case of Carnage vs Annhilation this is very true.

 

As a Carnage Marauder, we have at least 3% more accuracy, and in some variations of other specs, 6%. The Top level gear has about 300 accuracy, which puts Carnage mara at 105-106% accuracy while Rage and annhilation can sit at 100-103%. We have extra accuracy we dont need. Meaning we have more stats than we probably need.

 

How I feel About Accuracy

 

 

 

Now that I have said that, it would make sense that Annhilation actually has the stat advantage when it comes to colomni(whatever the spelling) gear. It relys on Crit primarly for those bleed crits, while Carnage relys alot on Power.

 

There is a big difference in gear between Colomni and Rakata:

 

+100 accuracy(with full Colomni we Carnage marauders already have our needed accuracy. We have 150 of a secondary stat we DONT need)

 

100 +crit (Big help for annhilation)

 

Power and Surge stay about the same. So you can see the Gear highly favors Annihilation.

 

If Carnage Marauders had +100 power instead of Accuracy, I bet your numbers would be alot different. The fact that, according to your results, Carnage marauders were only 200 DPS behind you says alot about how much stronger Carnage might be. But I honestly dont know. In just know i Like Carnage because its fun, not because its the best. All 3 specs have there uses and i feel are very equal.

 

So you can see its easy to say Annhilation is a better spec when you have the gear that supports it.

 

TL;DR: Saying you did more DPS in Annhilation is like saying an Arms warrior in Arms Tier Gear is better than a Fury Warrior in Arms Tier Gear.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AcaciaDragon

Carnage relies more on crits. It gets crit damage bonus to every single damage ability. While Scream autocrits, Massacre and Ataru procs don't.

 

Annihilation has a broader use of abilities with normal crit damage.