legend

ˈlɛdʒ(ə)nd/

noun

1. a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but not authenticated.

"the legend of King Arthur"

As I'm sure we are all now aware Disney has announced that the new movies will be overriding the post-ROTJ EU and that those stories as well as (as far as we are know) the rest/majority of the EU will be published under the "Legends" banner. But a lot of people are wrongly assuming that this means they are scrapping the EU.

That is the EU is now N-Canon. This is not true. The EU is still part of the continuity, its just not gospel. Just because something is not "canon" doesn't mean its not part of the Star Wars continuity, part of the story.

In reality, very little is changing. "Canon" for Lucasfilm has always been used exclusively in terms of G-Canon and T-Canon, the Lucas-endorsed stories that cannot and will not be changed and everything else has to conform to. Whereas the rest of the EU have always just been stories, endorsed by Lucasfilm, but re-writable at any time.

C-Canon and the rest of the tiers in this sense are merely for the sake of organisation, not real canon, and as Leland Chee has said are now becoming increasingly internal. The fans however have took it upon themselves to assume that G-Canon, T-Canon and C-Canon are all part of the same static continuity, but just different levels.

But this is not exactly the case, and never has been. To quote several sources, predating this announcement:

"Legends" is making the existing EU no more invalid or valid than it already was. The Story Group is making changes yes, but what they are really doing is just reinforcing all of the above. The old hierarchy system is being swept away, and "canon" is being reinforced as just G-Canon works. However what the Story Group are simultaneously trying to do is make the EU more unified and cohesive. To do that they are making new additions to the EU part of canon.

This is where Legends comes in, honestly the way I see it the title is just peripheral. Its just a different way of defining the existing tiers. Its just another label for everything not G-Canon or T-Canon, but it is not N-Canon. This stuff still "happened" in the sense that it is an accurate portrayal of the Star Wars Universe and conforms to the canon.

So what should we expect in the future? On one hand, retcons. Now that novels etc. have been invited into the Canon Club they will likely adopt the same policy as TCW, stay with in the bounds of what already exists and draw upon it, but overwrite where necessary. Because the only thing that is really happening here is that the new EU is now being given this power. This is not such a bad thing, given the minimal changes TCW made to the universe. And just because they have this power, doesn't mean they'll exercise it, they are not trailblazing a new EU. I can't stress that enough.

On the plus side is means that future EU will now be more well-regarded, these new books being published e.g. New Dawn, Tarkin, Lords of the Sith etc. are now part of the Holy Gospel! We should assume that they won't be changed or overwritten in the future and they'll be considered a more accurate portrayal of the Star Wars universe than ever before. And of course, any "Legends" referenced in them will be elevated to a more stable tier.

But lets not get our knickers in a twist and some how assume that TOR never happened, it did. Heck its referenced in TCW, as is Darth Bane and Darth Plagueis. It still happened and probably won't be retconned unless they decide to make a cartoon of it i.e. do a revamp of that era like TCW did, and like Rebels are doing.

So enough of this talk about "salvaging" and "scrapping" and enough of these claims that Disney is evil and has no respect for the EU, and lets put a hold on making the decision that your never going to read an EU book again.

P.S. Wish me luck, I'm posting this in General Discussion as well...

legend

ˈlɛdʒ(ə)nd/

 

noun

 

1. a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but not authenticated.

"the legend of King Arthur"[/color

Remember too that the Star Wars saga all takes place "A long time ago", as the opening text constantly reminds us, so technically ALL Star Wars stories take place in the past. The use of the term "Legends" suggests that, similar to legends and myths in the real world, these stories will be stories where it's up to the individual to accept them as true or not, while all the material in the One Canon would be considered "History" whose veracity is undisputed.

Real world example: Jesus. Historically, a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth who preached, until he was executed by the Romans. But according to Biblical legend, he also rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. The historical Jesus who preached and died is undeniable, but whether or not he rose again and ascended is up to whether or not you accept the Bible as fact.

SW example: Palpatine. He dies in Episode VI, which is considered "history" in the SW universe. But according to "Dark Empire", Palpatine returns from death in a clone body and tries to conquer the galaxy. The "historical Palpatine" who perished in the Battle of Endor is an undeniable fact, but whether or not he returned from the dead as a clone is up to whether or not you accept "Dark Empire" as true/canon.

I predict a couple years from now, we'll be seeing new fandom wars between the "Canon-only" crowd and the "pro-Legends" crowd, not all that unlike the real world debates we see between archaeologists and theologians, or between Catholics and "Bible-only" Christians; the "Canonists" with their "It's only true if it's canonized" philosophy and the "Legendist" with their "It's true unless proven false" philosophy.

Of course we've also had legends once commonly accepted by people that lose credibility in the light of new historical or archaeological discovery. Likewise, I expect some Legends stories may lose their canonical value in light of new EU stories or the new trilogy. But by no means should that mean that they ought to just be abandoned and ignored; Bram Stoker's "Dracula" will always be one of my all-time favorite books, and the mere fact that the real Vlad Tepes was never a vampire doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the novel.

Basically the Canon/Legend format isn't all that unlike the old G/C-Canon format. The only difference now is that, for the very first time in the history of the franchise, we'll now have EU material that will be considered undisputedly canon like the upcoming "Heir to the Jedi" and "Lords of the Sith" novels, and the upcoming "Rebels" show.

^^Basically this, its the whole foggy window thing all over again.

You know my concerns about multiple universes and the importance of perspective, but I feel that this is actually a good way of doing it. They still "happened" but not perhaps as they are written.

I can't say I look forward to the discussion, but at the very least it has real world connotations!

The best thing about this though is that future EU won't be legend, but gospel.

EDIT: Excellent way of putting it by the way, bravo.

How many people do you expect to get this? Right now people are being swept up in the tidal wave that is now "Legends." Maybe when things calm down, but we both know what can happen because of this latest announcement.

P.S. What rubs me wrong is how the media, every single time, use this is fodder for their "EU is dead" campaign.

For me, they gave a lot of explanations to appease the post-RotJ EU fans, which I'm not, and for me, it looks like things will continue as it always was.

A lot of this "on screen is the only real canon" is clearly a maneuver to promote their productions on that segment, since it's the most lucrative. They are fans like us, and like us, at least for me, the EU is valid since it doesn't clash with the films story. And so it'll be from now on, they said nothing different from that. I really didn't undertstand and such a big fuss was made about that announcement.

Quite right, but you know what people are like, once they have an idea in their head its difficult to get it out, best spread the word now while they're still pliable. We must save as many as we can!

 

P.S. What rubs me wrong is how the media, every single time, use this is fodder for their "EU is dead" campaign.

Well, we'll see where it goes.

But let's be honest, we both know where this is going regarding certain "arguments."

Well, we'll see where it goes.

 

But let's be honest, we both know where this is going regarding certain "arguments."

i look at it like comparing the old star trek stuff to the abrams star trek.

in a way its almost like an alternate universe where the EU stuff occurred and ep 7-9 will be the original universe's story.

the EU stuff imo is still valid

Beni, or whoever, can you please state the different levels of canon and their level of authority? For example, I know that their is a thing called G-Canon, but I'm not exactly what that means.

Basically can someone explain the canon lingo?

Beni, or whoever, can you please state the different levels of canon and their level of authority? For example, I know that their is a thing called G-Canon, but I'm not exactly what that means.

 

Basically can someone explain the canon lingo?

There is no canon lingo anymore. They got rid of the canon hierarchy a while back.

i look at it like comparing the old star trek stuff to the abrams star trek.

 

in a way its almost like an alternate universe where the EU stuff occurred and ep 7-9 will be the original universe's story.

 

the EU stuff imo is still valid

It still is, of course, but it is now easier to disregard EU elements for some people.

My only question is this: Do you think BW will now feel they have more of a free hand with their storytelling

EDIT: I just read the other EU threads and saw the answer to my question.

Well, that's certainly a comprehensive theory about how Legends fits into the Star Wars canon now. I just don't think its an accurate one.

For what I've seen in that announcement and elsewhere, the relationship between the Legends Imprint and the Star Wars Canon is similar to the relationship between the Marvel Comics and the Marvel Movies (or "Marvel Cinematic Universe").

The Marvel Movies "have full access to the rich content" of the Comics to use as inspiration, but nothing from the Comics is considered to be a part of the Cinematic Universe until it actually appears in one of those works.

The Movies have actively imported plenty of elements from the Comics, from little 'shout-outs' like passing Thor of as a "Donald Blake" to full-blown plot arcs like Captain America's origin story. But that doesn't mean any other elements of the Comics are actually part of that Universe. Just because the Movies have Hawkeye as a character doesn't mean he was a member of the Circus of Crime as a kid - that is an element they may chose to import, but they may also ignore.

By the same token, the Star Wars Canon has actively imported plenty of elements of Legends, like having an "Imperial Inquisitor". But that doesn't mean any other elements from Legends are an actual part of the Canon. Just because the Canon has Darth Bane as a character doesn't mean that he ever encountered a holocron from Darth Revan - that is just an element they may chose to import, but they may also ignore.

Well, that's a theory about how Legends fits into the Star Wars canon now. I just don't think its an accurate one.

 

For what I've seen in that announcement and elsewhere, the relationship between the Legends Imprint and the Star Wars Canon is similar to the relationship between the Marvel Comics and the Marvel Movies (or "Marvel Cinematic Universe").

 

The Marvel Movies "have full access to the rich content" of the Comics to use as inspiration, but nothing from the Comics is considered to be a part of the Cinematic Universe until it actually appears in one of those works.

 

The Movies have actively imported plenty of elements from the Comics, from little 'shout-outs' like passing Thor of as a "Donald Blake" to full-blown plot arcs like Captain America's origin story. But that doesn't mean any other elements of the Comics are actually part of that Universe. Just because the Movies have Hawkeye as a character doesn't mean he was a member of the Circus of Crime as a kid - that is an element they may chose to import, but they may also ignore.

 

By the same token, the Star Wars Canon has actively imported plenty of elements of Legends, like having an "Imperial Inquisitor". But that doesn't mean any other elements from Legends are an actual part of the Canon. Just because the Canon has Darth Bane as a character doesn't mean that he ever encountered a holocron from Darth Revan - that is just an element they may chose to import, but they may also ignore.

Its a question of what did happen and what may have happened. So Darth Bane did form the Rule of Two, is doesn't mean he encountered a holocron of Darth Revan but legend has it that he did.

What we shouldn't assume is that these are separate universes, they are not otherwise Disney would not have chosen to label them as "legends". Refer to Sanguiluna's example. You might say that King Arthur is just legend, but you wouldn't say that "oh, King Arthur exists in a parallel universe" now would you? Same rules apply here I feel.

But what is really important that nothing as really changed, Lucasfilm never considered the EU as canon anyway. If you like the EU how it is now, you won't be fussed over how it develops in the future.

Now what I'm curious about is the games set in the time period of the movies. I think I heard that TFU was now not considered a part of the canon, but is that because it is a game or because its interpretation of the rebel alliance's origins is now wrong?

What does it mean concerning other games and characters in this time period, like Dark Forces/Kyle Katarn? Since the inquisitors are canon, does that mean that Jerec is canon? Or is he technically non-canon until they choose to bring him and Kyle into the new stuff?

Now what I'm curious about is the games set in the time period of the movies. I think I heard that TFU was now not considered a part of the canon, but is that because it is a game or because its interpretation of the rebel alliance's origins is now wrong?

 

What does it mean concerning other games and characters in this time period, like Dark Forces/Kyle Katarn? Since the inquisitors are canon, does that mean that Jerec is canon? Or is he technically non-canon until they choose to bring him and Kyle into the new stuff?

TFU is not canon even before all this because of Star Wars Rebels coming out, they are gonna be explaining the origins of the Rebel Alliance., among also the quotes from the makers of the show, the symbol crest of the Rebels crew, etc.

As for the latter...we will just have to wait and see.

What we shouldn't assume is that these are separate universes, they are not otherwise Disney would not have chosen to label them as "legends". Refer to Sanguiluna's example. You might say that King Arthur is just legend, but you wouldn't say that "oh, King Arthur exists in a parallel universe" now would you? Same rules apply here I feel.

Sorry, but I think you are reading way too much into the fact that they used the word "Legends" as the Imprint title. Pretty sure it's just meant to be an evocative, punchy phrase - the same way the word "Unleashed" or "Infinities" has turned up in multiple Star Wars items. I haven't heard anything to indicate that the word "Legends" is anything more than a catchy term that the marketing department liked the sound of, same as Marvel liked the term "Ultimate" for its Alternate Universe comics.

But what is really important that nothing as really changed, Lucasfilm never considered the EU as canon anyway. If you like the EU how it is now, you won't be fussed over how it develops in the future.

Lucasfilm never considered the EU canon, but Lucasbooks and LucasArts' gaming branch did. When Crucible came out last year, it treated 99% of the books and comics that came before as being binding canon. When New Dawn comes out this year, it will not be treating those same slate of books and comics as canon. That is the change.

And since 90% of my Star Wars consumption is the books, comics, and videogames - I'm gonna go ahead and say that's a pretty significant change.

Sorry, but I think you are reading way too much into the fact that they used the word "Legends" as the Imprint title. Pretty sure it's just meant to be an evocative, punchy phrase - the same way the word "Unleashed" or "Infinities" has turned up in multiple Star Wars items. I haven't heard anything to indicate that the word "Legends" is anything more than a catchy term that the marketing department liked the sound of, same as Marvel liked the term "Ultimate" for its Alternate Universe comics.

Lucasfilm never considered the EU canon, but Lucasbooks and LucasArts' gaming branch did. When Crucible came out last year, it treated 99% of the books and comics that came before as being binding canon. When New Dawn comes out this year, it will not be treating those same slate of books and comics as canon. That is the change.

 

And since 90% of my Star Wars consumption is the books, comics, and videogames - I'm gonna go ahead and say that's a pretty significant change.

The only reason future EU books will not conform to existing EU works is because they are now part of the canon. They can flex their creative muscles and branch out with new stories like TCW did and like Rebels will. Just like before. The only reason they are doing this is to make canon more cohesive, not to divide it up into universes.

Of course this means will be seeing more and more retcons than ever before. But in regards to how the existing EU is treated and regarded nothing much has changed. They are no more or less highly valued than before.

On the plus side is means that future EU will now be more well-regarded, these new books being published e.g. New Dawn, Tarkin, Lords of the Sith etc. are now part of the Holy Gospel! We should assume that they won't be changed or overwritten in the future and they'll be considered a more accurate portrayal of the Star Wars universe than ever before. And of course, any "Legends" referenced in them will be elevated to a more stable tier.

No, no, no....Just no, OP....

There is absolutely nothing that could stop Disney from possibly selling Star Wars again down the line, which could make more changes. There's also absolutely nothing stopping Disney from making even more books years from now that overwrite the 'canon' of the books they're planning now.

The books are what they are...books. Nobody should be duped into believing that these books are 'now part of the Holy Gospel!' as you say. That is a ridiculous statement, that will just set more people up for disappointment another 20-30 years from now when the powers that be start wanting additional money from the Star Wars name/brand.

No, no, no....Just no, OP....

 

There is absolutely nothing that could stop Disney from possibly selling Star Wars again down the line, which could make more changes. There's also absolutely nothing stopping Disney from making even more books years from now that overwrite the 'canon' of the books they're planning now.

 

The books are what they are...books. Nobody should be duped into believing that these books are 'now part of the Holy Gospel!' as you say. That is a ridiculous statement, that will just set more people up for disappointment another 20-30 years from now when the powers that be start wanting additional money from the Star Wars name/brand.

Quite right, but you know what people are like, once they have an idea in their head its difficult to get it out, best spread the word now while they're still pliable. We must save as many as we can!

 

P.S. What rubs me wrong is how the media, every single time, use this is fodder for their "EU is dead" campaign.

"Have we had any contact from the Che?"

"Received a coded retreat message we have"

"It tells us to read this article. It says the war is over, to return to the forums and spread the word"

"Then we must log on! If any believers still remain, they will surely fall into the trap and be swayed!"

"Have we had any contact from the Che?"

"Received a coded retreat message we have"

"It tells us to read this article. It says the war is over, to return to the forums and spread the word"

"Then we must log on! If any believers still remain, they will surely fall into the trap and be swayed!"

I think I'll throw how I'm going to view the canon from now on.

I absolutely love the post-RoTJ stuff and have always considered it gospel as far as canon goes (I mean come on, Legacy of The Force was ridiculously good). Same goes for the Old Republic era (Exar Kun, Revan, TOR etc)

Currently I'm having a "last hurrah" with the post-Jedi works; the games, the books, the comics, due to the fact that I prefer a single cohesive vision of the universe. This might not work for everyone but it's my way, and it works for me.

As far as the pre-RoTJ works go I'm going to wing it, consider everything canon until the new trilogy or new EU works conflict with those stories.

In the end I don't think it matters so much what other people consider canon, it's up to each individual fan to choose.

Hell there might be those who choose to ignore the new trilogy altogether and keep the Thrawn Trilogy, the Vong War, Caedus' downfall and the Legacy era as "their" canon.

For those complaining about the new trilogy mucking up the post-Jedi EU works I say unto thee:

Farfeik! What is wrong with you? For years we've all been clamouring for a sequel trilogy and now we've not only been granted that but we also have Hamil, Ford and fisher returning. This is beyond my wildest expectations.

To me the post-Jedi EU is played out, there's nowhere for it to go in its current state. The fact that after Fate of The Jedi there's nothing until 100+ years later compounds this fact. It's nice to have it all wiped clean and a new set of stories emerge. Will we ever see the likes of the Vong War and Legacy of The Force again? I hope so, but more than this I hope that the new stuff surpasses the old.

Sure I have a soft spot for the Caedus arc, but some sacrifices are necessary.

(Plus Adam Driver looks a helluva lot like a certain Sith lord to me, so there's a glimmer of hope.)

TL;DR: Don't get your panties in a bunch over this, enjoy what you want to. I'm sure the movies will be amazing.

In the old system, the canon was basically this:

MUST BE accepted as canon:

The Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

Clone Wars

Revenge of the Sith

A New Hope

The Empire Strikes Back

Return of the Jedi

CAN BE accepted as canon:

Everything else, provided they don't conflict with the above

Now, under the new system, this is the new canon:

MUST BE ACCEPTED AS CANON:

The Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

Clone Wars

Revenge of the Sith

Lords of the Sith

A New Dawn

Rebels

Tarkin

A New Hope

Heir to the Jedi

The Empire Strikes Back

Return of the Jedi

{any future non-Legend EU material}

CAN BE accepted as canon:

Everything else, provided they don't conflict with the above.

In the end I don't think it matters so much what other people consider canon, it's up to each individual fan to choose.

Hell there might be those who choose to ignore the new trilogy altogether and keep the Thrawn Trilogy, the Vong War, Caedus' downfall and the Legacy era as "their" canon.

That's the point. The fans are the ones who decides what's canon and what's not. Of course,as you said in your text, there has to be an unity, things can't be a mess, with each people considering it's own vision as truth. I find to radical to disconsider the movies for the EU lore, especially post-RotJ, which I'm not a fan, but I wouldn't do it even if they made movie that retconed the Old Republic EU.

But in the small things, we can keep our visions. For example, I haven't met a single person who uses Moraband instead of Korriban.