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Why not: Deception Manifesto


nosmos

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I would just like to add, nosmos, I really appreciate all your efforts for us deception/infil players! I have been playing this spec from day 1 and love it! it's because of players like you that we got a buff in the first place, so thank you...

 

Hey np :o BTW I'm on Po5 and my SIN name is Parabole if anyones on there.

 

Right now I can have 1040 force power if I want, but that will drop my force crit to around 33 percent. When I compare the differences and slap back in some black hole crit mods, bringing my force power down to around 998 and force crit to around 37 percent - the sustained seems higher....

 

1040 force etc, sure..when maul or discharge or shock hit and crit, they hit big. But it's infrequent, and frankly sub-par for long encounters for the amount of force you burn through for tool-tip damage. My question is, why on earth do we have no flipping Crit talents, Accuracy talents or mainstat!!!!!!!!!

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This is not a discussion about PVP. Deception shines for the first 45 seconds or so of combat, which in pvp is fine. It's PVE - sustained, and lacking basic stat talents that everyone gets but us, that is at issue for myself

 

I guess I can understand if you are missing something PVE wise.

 

I know this is offtopic so just ignore it if you'd rather not go into it. I do not PVE so I'm curious what the issue is with it, do people go by how much damage they caused to mobs in a parse or something?

 

I ask because I imagine PVE to be simply a preset routine that once learned is devoid of challenge, like playing through contra on the NES. For example, once you know what a particular boss is going to do you basically do the exact same thing as last time to beat it no?

 

Not trying to be insulting or anything I just don't see how playing against a non thinking program can offer any challenge beyond the first couple of runs?

 

Sorry, not attempting to jack this thread I've just always wondered what the appeal of continually repeating PVE content is, I've heard it's for gear but that gear is just to keep doing more PVE, I'm just curious as to the repetition and what makes that fun if indeed it even is?

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I guess I can understand if you are missing something PVE wise.

 

I know this is offtopic so just ignore it if you'd rather not go into it. I do not PVE so I'm curious what the issue is with it, do people go by how much damage they caused to mobs in a parse or something?

 

I ask because I imagine PVE to be simply a preset routine that once learned is devoid of challenge, like playing through contra on the NES. For example, once you know what a particular boss is going to do you basically do the exact same thing as last time to beat it no?

 

Not trying to be insulting or anything I just don't see how playing against a non thinking program can offer any challenge beyond the first couple of runs?

 

Sorry, not attempting to jack this thread I've just always wondered what the appeal of continually repeating PVE content is, I've heard it's for gear but that gear is just to keep doing more PVE, I'm just curious as to the repetition and what makes that fun if indeed it even is?

 

 

Operations are very much like the old side platform Megaman games - vs the boss, he has a pattern and you jump or duck there. I find it fun becase you do it in a 3d environment with 15 other people - and it is challenging because people really have to know their class, positioning and the like. PVP, on the other hand is a different style. I play both, and **** face in both lol.

 

But lets be honest, this is an MMO...PVP does not take much skill. The rotations are all around the net for people, gear stats and the like. Want a challange? Go play Rapha in some Quake duel. THAT is a game that takes skill.

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Not that i think that most of those things need a change but i would like to see a fix to Exploitive Strike not proccing on surging charge crit like the Shadow get.

:mad:

Bad oversight which affect both pvp and pve damage rng, a change would make it more constant.

Edited by ElitehunterDS
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Operations are very much like the old side platform Megaman games - vs the boss, he has a pattern and you jump or duck there. I find it fun becase you do it in a 3d environment with 15 other people - and it is challenging because people really have to know their class, positioning and the like. PVP, on the other hand is a different style. I play both, and **** face in both lol.

 

But lets be honest, this is an MMO...PVP does not take much skill. The rotations are all around the net for people, gear stats and the like. Want a challange? Go play Rapha in some Quake duel. THAT is a game that takes skill.

 

I'm referring to the unpredictability of playing against another human versus something that is a set series of steps every time.

 

Again I was not trying to offend, but almost any person can eventually get through most PVE content but those same people can not adapt to the dynamic nature of playing against other people.

 

But saying that being a good player in PVP is as simple as repeating a set PVE pattern is just disingenuous, if this were true most PVPers would be on equal footing and winning a PVP match would be 50/50 and the top performers would also cycle through from top to bottom.

 

*But we all know this is not true, PVP easily separates the bads. Think of it this way, how many people have you met that could never, ever complete some PVE content, now let's compare that number to people who will never ever be good at PVP.

 

If you look at this honestly there is no comparison, PVE is just a routine like brushing your teeth, I know some of you like it and that is fine, but lets not start making up wild stories about what is adaptability and what is pattern.

 

I was just looking for an honest insiders take on the appeal of PVE, was not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

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I guess I can understand if you are missing something PVE wise.

 

I know this is offtopic so just ignore it if you'd rather not go into it. I do not PVE so I'm curious what the issue is with it, do people go by how much damage they caused to mobs in a parse or something?

 

I ask because I imagine PVE to be simply a preset routine that once learned is devoid of challenge, like playing through contra on the NES. For example, once you know what a particular boss is going to do you basically do the exact same thing as last time to beat it no?

 

Not trying to be insulting or anything I just don't see how playing against a non thinking program can offer any challenge beyond the first couple of runs?

 

Sorry, not attempting to jack this thread I've just always wondered what the appeal of continually repeating PVE content is, I've heard it's for gear but that gear is just to keep doing more PVE, I'm just curious as to the repetition and what makes that fun if indeed it even is?

 

 

First you beat it, then you master it, then you farm it, then you clamor for more while trying out crazy ideas in the meantime just to see if you can. That's why PVE people are constantly asking for more content. The best of the best conquer it quickly. The more middle of the road groups take a bit longer to conquer it. It's very satisfying beating a challenge with a group you've developed good team work with. I personally used to not see the appeal of PVP, and to a large extent I still don't. To each their own I suppose =)

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/signed

 

I would love to see +crit added somewhere in deception. The tree depends on it, and it creates an unfair advantage that more crit mods have to be used when other classes can just go power. Do I still do ok on my deception sin? Sure, but I could be doing even better if the playing field was level, and I could push my power higher as other classes that do top dps also do.

 

And Saber Conduit -- what a WASTE of 3 points! Fully agree, in this form this should be a single point talent. For 3 points it needs to proc twice as often (every 5 sec) or return double the force, 20. More often would create better sustained damage and more predictable force management, so would probably be better.

 

Also, deception needs a 30m ability of some sort, even if it does no damage. Like make the interrupt, Jolt, 30m. This may actually permit ranked teams to use deception over darkness hybrid assassins. They still don't because deception can be a liability due to having no ranged interrupt -- it simply makes the tree less viable.

 

Oh and just as a question for a dev if any stumble upon this thread: Why do sorcerers have +3% Accuracy high up in the HEALING tree, and assassins have none anywhere? Is this a remnant of early alpha and has never been rethought? I was in beta and I always remember sorcerers having that 3% accuracy as healers -- totally out of place. Move that 3% accuracy over to where it belongs, the other inquisitor class.

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/signed

 

I would love to see +crit added somewhere in deception. The tree depends on it, and it creates an unfair advantage that more crit mods have to be used when other classes can just go power. Do I still do ok on my deception sin? Sure, but I could be doing even better if the playing field was level, and I could push my power higher as other classes that do top dps also do.

 

And Saber Conduit -- what a WASTE of 3 points! Fully agree, in this form this should be a single point talent. For 3 points it needs to proc twice as often (every 5 sec) or return double the force, 20. More often would create better sustained damage and more predictable force management, so would probably be better.

 

Also, deception needs a 30m ability of some sort, even if it does no damage. Like make the interrupt, Jolt, 30m. This may actually permit ranked teams to use deception over darkness hybrid assassins. They still don't because deception can be a liability due to having no ranged interrupt -- it simply makes the tree less viable.

 

Oh and just as a question for a dev if any stumble upon this thread: Why do sorcerers have +3% Accuracy high up in the HEALING tree, and assassins have none anywhere? Is this a remnant of early alpha and has never been rethought? I was in beta and I always remember sorcerers having that 3% accuracy as healers -- totally out of place. Move that 3% accuracy over to where it belongs, the other inquisitor class.

 

 

Well said man. If anything what we need first are a couple talents. I would suggest at least Accuracy somewhere (surging charge stance maybe?) and a force crit chance increase. This would help A LOT with BiS'n ourselves. I have all 63's, except for my implants / earpieces. I recently had to take my power mods out and put back the black hole crit mods etc, simply because the crit rating everyone else needs - is subpar for us. We need HIGH crit for deception, but have nothing to help us with this. Why does carnage (a lot like deception) get an auto-crit force scream that hits just as hard as my disharge and maul...and it can be used every what..6 seconds or so? Where is our 'auto-crit' move?

 

On the rage trees, i think it is critical hits with vicious slash etc reduce the cooldown of smash - why not give us something like that with blackout? That would help A LOT for sustained damage.

 

First, please..hook us up with stat talents! Seriously, the other tank classes Jug and powertech, do they only have an endurance stat in their Tank tree? NO, they have crit / mainstat / etc...

 

Do the devs not see a disparity here?

 

EDIT: On the subject of Hazmat implants / earpieces...I notice one earpiece does have accuracy but it was 128 endurance and like 89 willpower...umm ok? The striker implants have ZERO accuracy, which means once i start getting those this week, I will have to start saving again to reverse engineer black hole stuff, spend lots of money transfering mods through legacy...so i can make some accuracy / crit or power enhancments....because the black hole ones we use have +57 on them.

 

Teh heck?

Edited by nosmos
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/signed

 

I would love to see +crit added somewhere in deception. The tree depends on it, and it creates an unfair advantage that more crit mods have to be used when other classes can just go power.

Best result i saw are with only 71 Crit rating, on my earpiece, added with the crit from willpower and fully buffed it end up at 28,28% crit.

 

Wish the dev would see that Exploitive Strikes is currently bugged on sin and doesnt proc on charge crit like a shadow.

 

P.s. PVE point of view but its doing fine in pvp too.

Edited by ElitehunterDS
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Best result i saw are with only 71 Crit rating, on my earpiece, added with the crit from willpower and fully buffed it end up at 28,28% crit.

 

Wish the dev would see that Exploitive Strikes is currently bugged on sin and doesnt proc on charge crit like a shadow.

 

P.s. PVE point of view but its doing fine in pvp too.

 

Dude 71 crit rating is not good for PVE operations. I notice a major difference from 33 percent crit to 37

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Yeah I definitely like adding more crit rating on my sin. Still keeping it above 900 power (force) for PvP, but moving crit up every percentage point I notice an increase in dps.

 

I wouldn't dip below 900 power, but everything else I'm slowly remodding for crit.

 

Now imagine having a +3% crit talent or even more as some classes have... one could easily push power above 950 like other classes do and still have decent crit rating.

Edited by Monterone
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Not from my many test and theorycrafting.

 

Guess i'm a little unsure how a 71 crit rating could pump out consistent enough big crit hits to sustain a good dps on the operation dummy and in operations themselves. Got any logs or anything?

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Reduce the force cost of Voltaic / Clairvoyant by 1/3rd (allowing for better force management for PvE purposes; irrelevant for PvP);

 

Throw in an Accuracy ability somewhere in the tree - 3 points, 1% per point (solves stat management - mostly); or simply add it to another ability (i.e. Recirculation / Security Breach).

 

Change Surging Charge/Shadow Technique bonus from 3% AP per point to 10% - maxing out at 30% AP (ups dps a bit, which it should - currently Madness/Balance outparses Deception/Infil by 100dps or more on any prolonged fight- *and* they can self-heal. Very skewed).

 

Class fixed imo.

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Accuracy in surging charge stance or something would be VERY VERY nice.

 

RIght now, I have all Dread Guard minus the ear piece - with this all equiped, a dread guard internal proc and dread guard on use power relic - i have 1016 force power..but my force crit is around 33.90...and my accuracy is then 105 special.

 

I wanted to see how high i could get my power levels (With the new dread guard relics not WH), and since NONE of the willpower hazmat implants have accuracy (and bh ones did) my accuracy dropped, a lot.

 

It's pretty ridiculous actually, considering the other classes (my other toons) can easily maintain 100/110 with 38 crit and 1100+ power

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I was more or less comparing carnage to deception since the spec play in a similar style - otherwise, im comparing STAT talents that every class gets that we do not

 

Where are you coming up with this idea that every class has all the good talents and assassins do not. Sins certainly are not the only class without a +accuracy talent. One of the few classes and specs that can have no accuracy on their gear is carnage/combat because of how much you get from the tree.

 

Yes deception has to have a crazy amount of crit to be effective having a 30% and then 50% crit damage increase to 3 huge abilities is pretty damn nice as well. I would give up the 3% in the carnage tree for 30% crit damage on master strike anyday.

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Where are you coming up with this idea that every class has all the good talents and assassins do not. Sins certainly are not the only class without a +accuracy talent. One of the few classes and specs that can have no accuracy on their gear is carnage/combat because of how much you get from the tree.

 

Yes deception has to have a crazy amount of crit to be effective having a 30% and then 50% crit damage increase to 3 huge abilities is pretty damn nice as well. I would give up the 3% in the carnage tree for 30% crit damage on master strike anyday.

 

Jokes? Not sure why you refer to JUST accuracy in that statement - I am saying Accuracy / Crit / mainstat - at least 2 of each which EVERY CLASS HAS but assassins. The other two classes with a tank? Endurance ( in the tank tree) mainstat and crit. Assassins? Endurance in the tank tree

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I guess I can understand if you are missing something PVE wise.

 

I know this is offtopic so just ignore it if you'd rather not go into it. I do not PVE so I'm curious what the issue is with it, do people go by how much damage they caused to mobs in a parse or something?

 

I ask because I imagine PVE to be simply a preset routine that once learned is devoid of challenge, like playing through contra on the NES. For example, once you know what a particular boss is going to do you basically do the exact same thing as last time to beat it no?

 

Not trying to be insulting or anything I just don't see how playing against a non thinking program can offer any challenge beyond the first couple of runs?

 

Sorry, not attempting to jack this thread I've just always wondered what the appeal of continually repeating PVE content is, I've heard it's for gear but that gear is just to keep doing more PVE, I'm just curious as to the repetition and what makes that fun if indeed it even is?

 

lol :)

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Jokes? Not sure why you refer to JUST accuracy in that statement - I am saying Accuracy / Crit / mainstat - at least 2 of each which EVERY CLASS HAS but assassins. The other two classes with a tank? Endurance ( in the tank tree) mainstat and crit. Assassins? Endurance in the tank tree

 

Then they should give marauder a 6% increase to strength in their talent trees because they do not have that

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Then they should give marauder a 6% increase to strength in their talent trees because they do not have that

 

lol, your missing the point man. WE HAVE NONE but endurance in the tank tree. Powertechs get main stat, endurance and increased crit on all fire effects blah blah...jugs get accuracy, crit, mainstat? Maras get accuracy, crit, snipers get Mainstat / Crit / Accuracy etc etc

 

EDIT: Also, i have a geared marauder i use, i know how to play it - the issue is that deception is not up to PAR with classes LIKE marauders. Move along to the next thread please

Edited by nosmos
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Assassins are not meant to be on par with marauders. If you have one you should already know that they are completely different. Yes assassins need to spend more time gearing up, part of the class you want to play.

 

I can understand wanting buffs for a class you like to play, but not every dps class has all of the same things some have better stuff than the rest, just the way it rolls. They put deception in a pretty good spot right now it has its place where it is needed. It shines at times and other times it just gets blown away.

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Assassins are not meant to be on par with marauders. If you have one you should already know that they are completely different. Yes assassins need to spend more time gearing up, part of the class you want to play.

 

I can understand wanting buffs for a class you like to play, but not every dps class has all of the same things some have better stuff than the rest, just the way it rolls. They put deception in a pretty good spot right now it has its place where it is needed. It shines at times and other times it just gets blown away.

 

The dps classes are meant to be within 5 percent. Yes, I can pull good numbers on certain fights as deception. But I am also complete dread guard minus an earpiece. The issue is simple, give us some accuracy in surging charge stance, or bring over the willpower mainstat talent thats on the sorc tree. Something

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