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5.0 Tanking Numbers


xiiMPuLSe's Avatar


xiiMPuLSe
01.03.2017 , 03:14 AM | #1
So with the mysterious disappearance of Keyboard Ninja and the rise of other theory crafters and number punchers in 4.0. Has anyone found the ideal numbers to hit for def/shield/absorb of the sin/jugg/pt tanks? I feel had I min/maxed the ideal numbers that were tossed around in 4.0 it would have been a little easier to follow the "trend" but coming off of a 2 year break I am kinda lost. Any help or links or docs are appreciated. Cheers!

Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
01.03.2017 , 03:33 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by xiiMPuLSe View Post
So with the mysterious disappearance of Keyboard Ninja and the rise of other theory crafters and number punchers in 4.0. Has anyone found the ideal numbers to hit for def/shield/absorb of the sin/jugg/pt tanks? I feel had I min/maxed the ideal numbers that were tossed around in 4.0 it would have been a little easier to follow the "trend" but coming off of a 2 year break I am kinda lost. Any help or links or docs are appreciated. Cheers!
Well, tanks aren't that hard in min/maxing. Ignore def, you get more than enough of it by default, and split shield/absorb roughly 50/50 and you're fine. Of course you can go all nuts with it to the last point, but why would you? It's not that 10 or 20 dtps more or less makes a difference.

But if you must, check out Bants numbers here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

Shrodinher's Avatar


Shrodinher
01.05.2017 , 07:48 AM | #3
Now imagine how richer community would be should KBN use something people actually use, and not Mathematica

Anyway, every single tanking methodic used by different theorycrafters in past was flawed in it's own way (some -- in many ways at the same time), KBN's was probably best at what it was. Issue with it was that it solved problem nobody ever should care about. If your goal is minimizing DTPS period you are crippling yourself, plain and simple.

Absorb is a fluff stat, it affects magnitude of shielding which is irrelevant like all the damn time. Unless you're a jugg (who are not tanks in 5.0) you have enough absorb out of the box and from 700-1000 points you'll dump into it just because dr are nonexistent and it's a bannable offense not to get tons of %% for relatively few points. Majority of your stat pool should always go into shield, 2-2.5k seems reasonable. If you shield attack, all is good and nobody gonna notice if it was 40 or 50 %. If you don't, it's bad but w/e; but when you get a streak of 2+ unlucky shield rolls it's a spike (on any class) and you won't die (because rip 5.0 tuning) but you will really piss your healers off because they have to babysit you instead of doing something more important, like tunnel dpsing boss (because rip 5.0 tuning).

tl;dr: don't cry over faulty tank theorycrafting, it was fun in itself, to study discuss etc. but not actually use results of it. From that PoV nothing changed really, you just get a chance to make your own (faulty) model for people to praise/critique/ignore/w/e.

nb: one thing actually worth spending time on is research for best slots to put dps pieces/mods in (power mods, dps relics, dps set for assassins etc).
Moisty "Mostly" Harmless <No One Important Died>, <B a d a s s i t u d e> @ TRE.
Also known as best bunny eu
4.0 Gate Crasher, from Beyond, Dread Master, Warstalker.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
01.05.2017 , 12:55 PM | #4
Oh WTH, I'll reply…

I haven't entirely disappeared. Just… mostly. Playing Guild Wars 2 and enjoying it a lot. Raided casually in 4.0 and (re)cleared everything but Brontes. Being even more casual now, waiting for the devs to confirm that they're not making real content anymore.

To the broader question on tank theory crafting in general, it's pretty boring since 4.0 due to the fact that defense is forced and the only "choice" is between shield and absorb. That choice has very little impact, numerically, and is broadly dictated by class mechanics anyway. Here's your rule of thumb:
  1. Make the numbers bigger (this always trumps any sort of min-maxing)
  2. Drop your defense as low as you can (in favor of shield/absorb)
  3. Start from balanced shield/absorb levels (equal amounts of both)
  4. If shadow/assassin, trade shield for absorb by about 10-20%
  5. If vanguard/powertech, trade absorb for shield by about 10-20%
  6. If guardian/juggernaut, reroll and go to step 1 (optional min-maxing step: if vanguard/pt, do the same)

The most meaningful question here is really how much endurance do we want. Health pools seem pretty darn generous in 5.0, and I haven't really seen anything that was so spiky that TTK was relevant. With that said, healers are so over-tuned that it literally doesn't matter. HPS basically falls from the heavens now, which means that optimizing to reduce HPS (which is what mitigation stacking does) is kinda pointless. Deeper health pools increase healer margins and reaction times at the cost of higher ongoing output requirements, but since HPS is easymode, the output requirements are a meaningless cost.

Additionally, this game basically doesn't have tanking in a form which can meaningfully impact the success of a group. The most successful groups have always been those with godlike healers, very very good DPS, and terrible tanks. Watch some old world first clears with a critical eye if you don't believe me. Very rarely you'll see apex groups that have legitimately good tanking (Zorz did in a few groups), but it's more of a coincidence than anything else. The healers carry most of the burden, followed by the DPS. The inverse is also true: if you have godlike tanks and mediocre healers, your group will never progress successfully. So basically, tank execution has a relatively minimal impact on group success, and tank gearing has even less.

Stat the way you feel like statting. Bant's numbers are optimal. The difference between optimal and "off the wall crazy" is almost non-existent from a numerical standpoint, and literally non-existent from a group success standpoint.

Quote: Originally Posted by Shrodinher View Post
Now imagine how richer community would be should KBN use something people actually use, and not Mathematica
Actually if you had been around back in the day, you would know that I used to use a more conventional spreadsheet. However, there isn't a spreadsheet tool in existence (even excel) which can do the kind of multivariate optimization necessary to pin down shadow/assassin statting (pre-4.0), due to the interactions with Kinetic Bulwark. There are very few spreadsheets which can do simpler things like Guardian/Juggernaut (which still required at a minimum trivariate optimization). Mathematica was the best tool for the job, and you'll notice how basically all of the serious theory crafting in SWTOR's history has been done with a tool like it (Bant used Python, iirc; dipstik used matlab).

Quote: Originally Posted by Shrodinher View Post
Anyway, every single tanking methodic used by different theorycrafters in past was flawed in it's own way (some -- in many ways at the same time), KBN's was probably best at what it was. Issue with it was that it solved problem nobody ever should care about. If your goal is minimizing DTPS period you are crippling yourself, plain and simple.
Now that healers are overpowered in terms of HPS output, I agree with you. DtPS is meaningless in the 4.0 and 5.0 metas. Which is part of why it's boring. But previously, DtPS optimization was extremely important, simply because healer throughput margins were much lower.

I definitely don't agree with you that stacking shield is optimal in any objective sense of the word, but it's not going to make a huge difference either way. If your healers like it better, go for it! Most of what they "like" about it will be psychosomatic, but comfort is real and shouldn't be ignored.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

LordTurin's Avatar


LordTurin
01.05.2017 , 03:46 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by xiiMPuLSe View Post
So with the mysterious disappearance of Keyboard Ninja and the rise of other theory crafters and number punchers in 4.0. Has anyone found the ideal numbers to hit for def/shield/absorb of the sin/jugg/pt tanks? I feel had I min/maxed the ideal numbers that were tossed around in 4.0 it would have been a little easier to follow the "trend" but coming off of a 2 year break I am kinda lost. Any help or links or docs are appreciated. Cheers!
My 2 cents (backed up by nothing but my own experience tanking so far in 5.0, which has cleared everything in HM except for TOS/Rav/EC):

Given how tanky most tanks are now (especially shadows, which is what I play), how strong healers are, and how tight some of the dps checks are (seems like that was the only thing they tuned appropriately in 5.0) I'm rocking all lethal mods, and about 1500 each of shield/defense/absorb. Do I usually take a little more damage than my co-tank (who also plays a shadow, but uses either optimized stuff or high endurance defense mods), yes (though I also usually tank the boss for more of the fights). But I also do anywhere between 500-1000 extra damage than she does; which has oftentimes been the difference between clearing the boss and enraging.

I would go with whatever works best for you and your group (talk to your healers), and if you are just soloing stuff (or just doing pug stuff) it is probably easy enough that you can stack as much dps stuff as possible to at least make it go faster. As long as you are wearing a shield generator, chances are it won't be damage that kills you, it'll be mechanics (or enrage).
Dragonslayer Mitthendil the Revanchist - Mercenary ||
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
01.10.2017 , 01:44 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I definitely don't agree with you that stacking shield is optimal in any objective sense of the word, but it's not going to make a huge difference either way. If your healers like it better, go for it! Most of what they "like" about it will be psychosomatic, but comfort is real and shouldn't be ignored.
That conclusion just made my day lol.

I mostly dps since 4.0, but the few HM ops I've undertaken as a tank (sintank (some double stanced bugged, others not, as I respecced into the ops and lost the dual stance, and I do not fancy going to reload fleet just to use a bug, nor do I feel the need to constantly respec and reorder my abilities to compensate for BW laziness at bug fixes) ) I've not seen as much spike damage.

I normally run 8 absorb aug, 6 absorb enhencement, and 6 shield aug and 4 shield enhencements.

I have not however, undertaken any NiM ops as a tank.

But when asked or answering to a general call on fleet, I do say "check with your healers. If they find you need too much sustained hps, maybe you have too much shield, and it would be good to switch some shield to absorb. If they think you are too spiky, you could try switching some absorb to shield.

Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
01.25.2017 , 03:56 AM | #7
Since I'm too lazy to create a new thread I just go with this one

Question to my fellow tanks and, If any are still around, theorycrafters: Now that Sins are fixed/nerfed, how much ahead are they of PTs and juggs now? I'd think the difference now wouldn't be as steep as before? Maybe 5-10% between best and worse?

VegasTheLost's Avatar


VegasTheLost
02.28.2017 , 12:29 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Torvai View Post
Since I'm too lazy to create a new thread I just go with this one

Question to my fellow tanks and, If any are still around, theorycrafters: Now that Sins are fixed/nerfed, how much ahead are they of PTs and juggs now? I'd think the difference now wouldn't be as steep as before? Maybe 5-10% between best and worse?
Kinda late for the party but here's my view: Jugg tanks feels slow/lazy/shackled/something along the way like this. Cooldown vise they aren't so bad as you know, but I don't feel them as mobile as a Shadow.

PT: I only saw numbers on the PT section ad they seem awful. Anyway one of my DPS is pulling up his PT tank just to show me that it is still viable(lol, it's not, rip healers) and I get back to you when we're done.
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Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
02.28.2017 , 07:32 AM | #9
What I mean is that sins were only waaaaay ahead of Juggs and Pts because of Stance Bug and AoE reduction. Both are gone now.
And while they are still better than Juggs and PTs, its not as much anymore. The question is: How much

VegasTheLost's Avatar


VegasTheLost
02.28.2017 , 09:29 AM | #10
Oh that. Let me put it this way. Jugg is not a tank for me in 5.0.
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