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Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles
Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.11.2016 , 11:25 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyDarkkitten View Post
Dude it's math
Where exactly is your math showing that:
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyDarkkitten View Post
Choosing to lose 4k health to go from 29.6% defense to 29.7% defense directly hurts the amount of damage you can take in a boss fight and increases the total healing you need while making you more vulnerable to RNG heavy damage.
That's straight up false, more mitigation will lead to lower expected damage taken, yes you're more vulnerable to burst, but you need less healing overall, that's just a fact. I'm not saying wether or not you should go for max mitigation, but that's just bull.

Tsetso's Avatar


Tsetso
06.11.2016 , 11:44 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Where exactly is your math showing that:

That's straight up false, more mitigation will lead to lower expected damage taken, yes you're more vulnerable to burst, but you need less healing overall, that's just a fact. I'm not saying wether or not you should go for max mitigation, but that's just bull.
This link shows driving thrust hitting for 87k. Granted it's on marauder so on tank it will probably be ~75k.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.11.2016 , 02:22 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Tsetso View Post
This link shows driving thrust hitting for 87k. Granted it's on marauder so on tank it will probably be ~75k.
Again, I'm not arguing either way on the max mitigation/endu heavy debate. However saying that max mitigation needs more total healing, is simply false. That's the main drawback of endu heavy, higher dtps.

Tsetso's Avatar


Tsetso
06.11.2016 , 02:32 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Again, I'm not arguing either way on the max mitigation/endu heavy debate. However saying that max mitigation needs more total healing, is simply false. That's the main drawback of endu heavy, higher dtps.
Sure, most tanks gear for max mitigation AFTER they have enough endurence to make sure they won't be one hitted

Shrodinher's Avatar


Shrodinher
06.13.2016 , 05:59 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
That's straight up false, more mitigation will lead to lower expected damage taken, yes you're more vulnerable to burst, but you need less healing overall, that's just a fact. I'm not saying wether or not you should go for max mitigation, but that's just bull.
It's probably a terribly constructed sentence, and he meant typical "less healing, but vulnerable to spikes".

However, it's really hard to argue "directly hurts the amount of damage you can take in a boss fight". Out of context for the sake of sarcasm: really, you can't take much damage from the boss if you die to spike 30 seconds in

DTPS is highly overrated metric, and "sub-optimal" gearing effect on it is almost always hyperbolized to just hilarious numbers. I have a sort of drinking game especially for that, except it's not about drinking. When wiping heavily on some boss cept select few most hard hitting ones (tfb, brontes, dg, bestia), replace 1 piece of tank gear with dps one every 2-3 wipes. See if your healers will notice something is wrong before you get to offhand
Moisty "Mostly" Harmless <No One Important Died>, <B a d a s s i t u d e> @ TRE.
Also known as best bunny eu
4.0 Gate Crasher, from Beyond, Dread Master, Warstalker.

narau's Avatar


narau
06.13.2016 , 06:25 AM | #16
Playing the 3 Roles tanks from the beginning, there are few things which came back on top problems for us

First, the fact that they give importance to Defense, is completely in opposition to the mitigation and the gameplay :

Shadow tanks and Vanguard have their gameplay based on the shield which increase their absorption.
by giving importance to def, they lower the block rate and the absorption gained
It s even fatal to the mitigation tank gameplay

Secondly, the critical cap up from 25% to 37% (like in the 2.0).
It was the same problem therefore, Critical which override precision and shield
Example :
a 50%crit dps vs 55% shield tank will end like this :
your shield will be downgrade to 50% (to match with the 50% crit against you and obtain 100%)
Moreover, that make you block all uncritical hit and take only crits....
And no matter your defense rate because Crit override precision and cannot be blocked

This was the 2.0 logical from a dev team which has been replaced by another who finally repeat the same patterns ... but later xD

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.13.2016 , 06:48 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Shrodinher View Post
It's probably a terribly constructed sentence, and he meant typical "less healing, but vulnerable to spikes".

However, it's really hard to argue "directly hurts the amount of damage you can take in a boss fight". Out of context for the sake of sarcasm: really, you can't take much damage from the boss if you die to spike 30 seconds in

DTPS is highly overrated metric, and "sub-optimal" gearing effect on it is almost always hyperbolized to just hilarious numbers. I have a sort of drinking game especially for that, except it's not about drinking. When wiping heavily on some boss cept select few most hard hitting ones (tfb, brontes, dg, bestia), replace 1 piece of tank gear with dps one every 2-3 wipes. See if your healers will notice something is wrong before you get to offhand
Well, dtps will easy up the work for healers anyways, and cooldowns exist for the sole purpose of mitigating burst. I can see the value of going for more endurance, especially for assassins, considering they have pretty low DR. But in the end, 220 endu heavy mods and 224 optimized ones won't make an extreme difference in hp either.

rklontz's Avatar


rklontz
06.13.2016 , 07:33 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
The real problem is non tanks have too much hp and too many damage reducing cooldowns and shields. But this dev team seriously wastes too much damn time on nerfing and buffing and balance. We could of had an expansion with 8 class stories again long ago if they would stop wasting time pissing people off with this ****.
If TEC is to prepare people for group content dont be surprised if they do away with the trinity.

Shrodinher's Avatar


Shrodinher
06.13.2016 , 08:54 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Well, dtps will easy up the work for healers anyways, and cooldowns exist for the sole purpose of mitigating burst. I can see the value of going for more endurance, especially for assassins, considering they have pretty low DR. But in the end, 220 endu heavy mods and 224 optimized ones won't make an extreme difference in hp either.
That's the point, extra work for healers. Does. Not. Matter. I've seen tanks' combined dtps fluctuate by ~2k on certain fights between pulls (in same phases, ofc) and healer's were barely admitting a difference. If you survive spike, it is all that matters, extra lost hp can be easily recovered after. Healing in this game never was as overtuned as it is now. If you are not gearing for spike, you deny your healers a chance to heal someone else in dire need while you are at a brisk of death because of lacking hp and bad rolls.

Point about not making extreme difference is a lie. Up to a point of assassin being unable to survive one unmitigatied hit without b-mods or reliable cooldown.
Moisty "Mostly" Harmless <No One Important Died>, <B a d a s s i t u d e> @ TRE.
Also known as best bunny eu
4.0 Gate Crasher, from Beyond, Dread Master, Warstalker.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.13.2016 , 09:08 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Shrodinher View Post
That's the point, extra work for healers. Does. Not. Matter. I've seen tanks' combined dtps fluctuate by ~2k on certain fights between pulls (in same phases, ofc) and healer's were barely admitting a difference. If you survive spike, it is all that matters, extra lost hp can be easily recovered after. Healing in this game never was as overtuned as it is now. If you are not gearing for spike, you deny your healers a chance to heal someone else in dire need while you are at a brisk of death because of lacking hp and bad rolls.

Point about not making extreme difference is a lie. Up to a point of assassin being unable to survive one unmitigatied hit without b-mods or reliable cooldown.
Well Assassins are a seperate case, they get an endurance buff to compensate for their low DR, because this buff is based of your total endurance, each endurance point will contribute more to the total. Hence, more endurance is most beneficial for Assassin tanks.