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Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles
Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

Seaturkey's Avatar


Seaturkey
06.08.2016 , 04:25 PM | #1
As the title implies, it seems to me that BW has decided that tanks should not be rewarded for progressing. Instead, they apparently feel its better to take away endurance when facing content that hits harder? I don't understand it. If BW doesn't want to increase endurance for tanks on higher gear, fine, but why lower it? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the tank's endurance levels the same?

I would think that comms gear, which is the source of B-mods, and therefore much easier to achieve would be the floor for a certain tier of content (SM/HM/NiM) with the Unassembled drops giving gear with increased def/shield/absorb while maintaining the endurance levels of B-mods, or atleast keeping them close enough so as to not feel like being nerfed for earning the "better" gear.

I just don't get it. What's the logic here?
The bull is stabbed, prodded, beaten. The bull is wounded. The bull is tired before the matador even steps into the ring. Now, is that victory? Of course it is. Wanna know the secret to winning? Creative sportmanship, one has to rig the game.

Kyuuu's Avatar


Kyuuu
06.08.2016 , 05:33 PM | #2
224 token gear which is only kind for 224 is for max mitigation, which can be argue by nim people is what is better then have endure. depend on who you talk to what type take

Though I think min max DPS should not have more HP/ENDURE then a tank EVEN IF they are all in 224 gear. then again I also think the amount HP/ENDURE put in gear is getting ridiculous Next cap raise will probably see 100k base hp on everything...

And logic being IT BW/EA logic which to say which to say it based of there "metrics" there statically "numbers" and not actual playing of game

CrownofGold's Avatar


CrownofGold
06.08.2016 , 05:39 PM | #3
Higher quality gear would include higher damage mitigation, Defense, Absorb mods, not higher Endurance.

Having higher HP is not what is desired but the ability to block damage is.

Try tor-tank.com for min/maxing gear.
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Noyjitat's Avatar


Noyjitat
06.08.2016 , 05:56 PM | #4
The real problem is non tanks have too much hp and too many damage reducing cooldowns and shields. But this dev team seriously wastes too much damn time on nerfing and buffing and balance. We could of had an expansion with 8 class stories again long ago if they would stop wasting time pissing people off with this ****.
Spoiler

Seaturkey's Avatar


Seaturkey
06.08.2016 , 07:03 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by CrownofGold View Post
Higher quality gear would include higher damage mitigation, Defense, Absorb mods, not higher Endurance.

Having higher HP is not what is desired but the ability to block damage is.

Try tor-tank.com for min/maxing gear.
Nothing I said argues that. I'm saying that higher mitigation for ops gear shouldn't be penalized with lowered endurance. Endurance should remain the ~same with comms gear and still have the higher mitigation.
The bull is stabbed, prodded, beaten. The bull is wounded. The bull is tired before the matador even steps into the ring. Now, is that victory? Of course it is. Wanna know the secret to winning? Creative sportmanship, one has to rig the game.

Shrodinher's Avatar


Shrodinher
06.10.2016 , 01:16 AM | #6
There are 3 problems with tank gearing. First is no endurance on tank relics which is utter bull****. Partially compensated by using Mk-26s.
Second is no Mk-2 224s, which makes it somewhat a pain to get multiple dps sets (too much accuracy and crit enhancements) and makes BiS tank gear unobtainable. At least using dps/mk-26 relics gives some reasoning to use 224 enhancements, otherwise all 224 is just pointless and even people maining tanks shouldn't spend a single 224 token on em.
Third is absurd spikes met in hm/nim content, which used to be features to select bosses distinguishing them and giving some room for changing gear sets between fights for best performance, but now it's all just damn same.

Having less than 80k hp as tank is not viable in NiMs period.
Not a single competent enough healer gives a slight hint of **** if you take 3k or 4k dtps as long as you survive spikes. Even going full b-mods and high-end enhs won't make you that squishy btw.
Raptus (HM, because NiM is a joke even when you have 2 failed dps challenges and enrage on top) hits sin for ~63k (unless baddie loses stacks) with driving/rising, basic attack is about 10k per hit afair. Unlucky mitigation rolls -> you're pretty much globalled in high miti profile and no healers won't have a single second between hits to react.
Stormcaller, over 80% internal damage, suuuuure, mitigation gonna help a lot.
Cartel Warlords, sitting at 95%+ internal damage (tanking Vilus for 2 phases) when I don't slack. Very artificial example, just felt like putting it in.
Brontes, hands slam up to 47k and yes it hits like a truck even if you play "hybrid" and yes often healer just don't have time for you.
Bestia, dat sweet 40k+ x2 cleave by monsters. What are assassins sitting at with max mitigation currently, 78k?
Calphayus because endurance is better when you are ignored by healer because he needs to dps add.
Council while kiting Bestia far away from raid since there are like 1.5 tanks left that can kite her without making healers a violent bloodthirsty psychopaths only wanting to learn where that tank lives.
Masterblaster because scaling something to do 200% more damage while hp pool grew about 60% is so bioware.
Also pretty much every boss in EC; Thrasher, The Terror, Corruptor.

If somebody takes unnecessary damage, or you're all in tight burst check, or one of healers died you are getting very little heals if any at all. You goal is to survive this, and it just happens that mathematically mitigation is the worst form of survivability. Speaking simply, without healing you'll survive much longer with high endurance than with high mitigation, on average. Then we have lucky mitigation rolls streaks which make both profile almost same. But, most importantly, bad luck. If your healer was unlucky and derped and died, what makes you think YOU will have more luck? Worst case scenario, high mitigation profile is basically a dps in terms of squishiness, while mid/high endurance doesn't give a **** about shield/defense rolls in most cases. Yes your healers will have to do more work once disaster is rolled back into "impending" state from "already happening" state, but at least they will have something to heal and not rez.

Minmaxing tank to minimize dtps is plain wrong, and what bioware did to our gear is just ludicrous. Even worse, nothing can be done really because the issue in the very basis (tank gear has much less endurance by design due to augments) and last time we saw balance was in 2.x -- which was achieved by... max mitigation enhancements being unavailable!

Tl;dr: do not seek reason, gearing (tanks, at least) is done without any thoughts or logic put into it, in the most blunt way possible, and only difference between what we had before is that ones responsible for it did that **** without any particular goal in mind, apparently but hey that's like the diagnosis for the whole game now
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Tsetso's Avatar


Tsetso
06.10.2016 , 03:23 AM | #7
There is also the problem with defense on all gear. 2400+ defense is too much and there is no way to remove some of it and use shield/absorb

gabigool's Avatar


gabigool
06.10.2016 , 06:16 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by CrownofGold View Post
Higher quality gear would include higher damage mitigation, Defense, Absorb mods, not higher Endurance.

Having higher HP is not what is desired but the ability to block damage is.
Why do people still say this?

Blocking, or more precisely, mitigating damage is meaningless if you cannot survive the spikes. At some point you take 2-3 hits in a row. The damage profiles of many NM encounters - and a couple HM ones - in no way align with, as you say, min-max gear.

And, frankly, on the others it doesn't matter.

Tanks that are actually killing difficult content do not gear for highest possible mitigation -- or they wouldn't be killing it.

LudhaninRolgge's Avatar


LudhaninRolgge
06.11.2016 , 08:43 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by gabigool View Post
Why do people still say this?

Blocking, or more precisely, mitigating damage is meaningless if you cannot survive the spikes. At some point you take 2-3 hits in a row. The damage profiles of many NM encounters - and a couple HM ones - in no way align with, as you say, min-max gear.

And, frankly, on the others it doesn't matter.

Tanks that are actually killing difficult content do not gear for highest possible mitigation -- or they wouldn't be killing it.
Even if I agree that surviving spikes is better, I know 2 tanks from one of my guild that are geared in max mitigation. And you can't really say they've much trouble since they've cleared everything except Revan HM, Brontes NiM and Styrak NiM.
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LadyDarkkitten's Avatar


LadyDarkkitten
06.11.2016 , 10:56 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by LudhaninRolgge View Post
Even if I agree that surviving spikes is better, I know 2 tanks from one of my guild that are geared in max mitigation. And you can't really say they've much trouble since they've cleared everything except Revan HM, Brontes NiM and Styrak NiM.
Dude its math. Ok your tanks are pros and they have great healers. grats. They are still doing it sub optimally. Its like a healer who specs 10% accuracy ok? cos he likes to dps in the down times. Now maybe hes a demi-god healer, hes healed all the nims, he can solo heal any hm op in the game. You know the ones, you bring them to hm EV's when its prioty week and you want to 6 man run the 16m mode for more loot. He doesn't need that alacrity or crit so he grabs some accuracy on his gear and dps's adds and keeps his dots on the boss to make things go faster.

Is he doing it wrong? for him no.
Is he gearing sub optimally for his role as a healer? yes
Should people be posting on forums and in general/guild chat to newbie healers telling them to adopt his gearing strategy that works for him? ABSOLUTELY NOT AND YOUR TROLLING THEM IF YOU DO.

Math is math. Choosing to lose 4k health to go from 29.6% defense to 29.7% defense directly hurts the amount of damage you can take in a boss fight and increases the total healing you need while making you more vulnerable to RNG heavy damage. Its sub-optimal play and we should never be advising new tanks to gear that way.
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