I love the OId Republic and I love the movies, but I was watching the movies, prequels and sequels, and I just find myself in awe, like watching Yoda fight Dooku, like they're a bunch of weaklings. Dooku pulls a few pebbles from the ceiling and Yoda is all "powerful you have become" but that's like apprentice level stuff in TOR. Like, if this Jedi Order had to fight Vitiate/Valkorion, they'd be destroyed in seconds. What reason is there that the older Sith are so much more powerful than those who come after them? Like there honestly is no comparison AT ALL.

I'd disagree. PCs can't do that. We can't crack the ceiling. As for attack abilities it may be difficult to compare how deadly they are. Though the animations for some abilities show things that don't show up in the movies. But I have a feeling that that is more about optics than anything else.

I'd disagree. PCs can't do that. We can't crack the ceiling. As for attack abilities it may be difficult to compare how deadly they are. Though the animations for some abilities show things that don't show up in the movies. But I have a feeling that that is more about optics than anything else.

 

Well, look at Valkorion, he can control an entire planet at one time, and then kill everyone. Nobody in the movies or that era has anywhere near that level of power, and what would the Jedi even do to stop something like that? It seems Yoda is the most powerful and wise, and even he doesn't compare to Valkorion.

Well, look at Valkorion, he can control an entire planet at one time, and then kill everyone. Nobody in the movies or that era has anywhere near that level of power, and what would the Jedi even do to stop something like that? It seems Yoda is the most powerful and wise, and even he doesn't compare to Valkorion.

 

It is true but that's of no significance from my point of view; the important thing is the relative, global strength of the heroes of KotOR and KotOR2, the relative strength of the TOR protagonists and antagonists and the relative powers of the heroes of the SW Episodes I-VI, not to mention the next Episodes as another topic.

 

All these sets are to be separated not because they are about Force Users of different eras but mostly because they are about Force Users of different ... fictitious works and you can not really put limits to creative imagination and such; that's all!

 

I really like all of them, mostly Episodes I-VI, then KotOR2;TSL and KotOR! Most of TOR is quite interesting also, particularly some Classes' story lines, SoR, KotFE and KotET!! RotHC not so much of course but it goes...

Anyways I don't care to find out what Master Yoda could achieve against either Revan or Arcann or what the chances of Darth Sidious are against either Darth Nihilus or Valcorion... Not even George Lucas could answer so hard and impossible to answer questions!...

 

The real issue is if Darth Vader fits into his story together with Master Yoda, Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus, if the Exile fits into his own story and if Valcorion fits into His story of The Immortal Emperor, THE Sithari or whatever...

Well, they all obviously fit very well (or even perfectly well!!) there...

Imho that is the question and that's my answer.

Edited December 18, 2016 by cunctatorg

First off if we pass judgement by what we see(i mean literally visual performance) i have to agree with the creator of this Thread that Kotor1, Kotor2TSL and SWTOR - will eat, swallow and sh*t the characters from original movies from I to VII

 

BUT....

 

Evolution mate, Evolution....

 

Right back in the day when they released the first SW movie "A new Hope" - the universe of Star Wars, was still very young and undeveloped but as we can see - looking back in time chronologically, from the very first Star Wars released material until now we witness(and here i will repeat myself) EVOLUTION and the beauty and perfection that goes with it.

 

The games and in particular SW KOTOR and TOR comes verry late in the timeline and they have the foundations from the old movies to step on and continue building up...

 

In the movies(especially IV,V,VI) the creators had limited time and technology to create by the best of their abilities the clothes for the still naked baby body of Star Wars(if i may express myself by that metaphor)

 

Later on we see improvement of effects, combat scenes, world enviorment, alien species in episodes I,II,III and VII(for the last one i remain without opinnion if it si improvement or else)

Bet there is so much you can tell and show for this 2-3 hours(per movie) about Star Wars Universe...

 

About the Games - well here you have the Absolute Freedom and Power to redesign the already known product into something much much better.

Especially Kotor1,2 with their long long hours of Role Play gameplay in which we are flooded with information about everything we never knew....

 

But back ONTOPICK:

In one of the comic books Darth Sidious used so powerfull force STORM that he(if memorry serves right) destroyed a starship into the atmosphere of Coruscant from some room in some Building planetwise...

 

Further more, take The Force Unleashed 1 and 2 and compare the Display of Overwhelming Power Starkiller is wielding both with the Force and by Lightsaber skill.

The story of The Force Unleashed game series goes like link between episode III and IV of the original movies and can be considered as modern times, long after SWTOR universe was put to rest into dusty and forgoten datacrons.

There are countless more examples to show that "modern" Jedi and Sith will have to say a thing or two to their Old Republic Colleagues...

 

About Master Yoda, in the movies he is already in his twilight years and still he was a something to not f*ck around with.

I wonder of what he was capable of in his prime...

 

On the other hand - Yes maybe some of the sith Lords and Jedi masters of old are undeniebly stronger than "new era" Jedi/Sith but we are speaking of thousands of years in between them - years in which The Force like the main energy source of life takes little off time to recharge then BOOM it goes back for a new Era of Galacic comflict tearing to pieces the very fabric of the universe...

 

Valkorion is no doubth one of the most formidable oponents we ever saw but like all beings of power almost overwhelming, he must have a one tiny weak spot which someone prepared enough will see and exploit leading to his underdoing....

 

And one more thing, what about the Rakatan Empire - they were Rulers of ALL the Force Surved for their ultimate weapon and shield, they left behind powerstations, temples and machines that even in the Highlight time of Old Republic with all its Sith Lords and Jedi Masters, are considered as something outstanding and mysterious.

 

Doesn't that mean that in their day of suprimacy, the Rakatan Empire was even stronger than Old Republic Empire and Republic combined togather....Yes i think that they were, BUT...

Where are they now? Like all things pasing trough the riever of time - they came, evolved, enslaved and ruled only to fall, scatter and sink into oblivion.

 

So back on the begining - it is not just you - there is significant difference between dispay of power wielded in both Old and New Republics - but we have to take under consideration the few points i made about how back in time lies the actual creation of New Empire and Republic(Rebbels) as we know them,

and how foreward in timeline lies the story of SWTOR when the technology used to create it is many many level higher(which opens dors, and gates that were closed and locked back in the day)

 

As an ending i will use my opening words:

 

Evolution, my sw friends - Evolution!

Edited December 18, 2016 by Ivchoy

Some interesting tangents brought up so far, so I'm going to toss in a bit of a meta perspective.

 

Taking into account Joseph Campbell's comparative mythology work, what if we're experiencing the Star Wars franchise as if we're the audience to a particularly skilled talespinner around the figurative campfire? For example, starting with the original films, the feats of Wonder are grand, but going farther back, those feats become grander in the telling when they were probably the same as the original baseline. So, in essence you have Force users well known to use some telekinesis and mind trickery and while it was still likely just that in level abilities in the older days, the storytelling gets ramped up to tales of Force users affecting entire planets or creating life with thought and will. This would also explain why everything involving the Force is usually from the Jedi perspective despite groups of Force users existing long before the formation of the Order and having their own unique interpretations or why technology doesn't really seem to develop during all this time in universe.

I'd disagree. PCs can't do that. We can't crack the ceiling. As for attack abilities it may be difficult to compare how deadly they are. Though the animations for some abilities show things that don't show up in the movies. But I have a feeling that that is more about optics than anything else.

 

Actually think back to the JK story. When Master Orgus Din drops the ceiling and the JK remarks "I want to be able to do that". and then later in chapter 3. I forget which planet the JK actually does said ceiling dropping.

Maybe they had too much peace? With no threat to the Jedi later on they saw no need to become more powerful.

I say yes, just on the movie prospective. I mean KOTOR KOTOR2 SWTOR KOTFE & now KOTET. I say yes, its way more powerful. Tons more Jedi, Tons more Siths. Things was way more connected to the force or at least in This old Realm it is. The movies depicted a Dead Jedi Order in Films 4.5.6. with a handful of secret Jedi scattered through out the galaxy. Sith was slowly making a come back but nothing like in the days of TOR. Again In 4.5. & 6 of the Movies, its almost like the Force was slow in getting reconnected to everything. It had to be, by a preordained planning to be re established to be able to be passed on to another and by that passing of the teachings. It Awakens once again.

 

So at this point and time the Force was, I SAY. 'Far Superior in TOR, compared to the films and that goes for 1 thru UNSEEN 8'.

 

Now i did not go thru a bunch a details from all movies just kind of summed it up.

Well for one you're comparing a set of movies which try to tell a story, to a game where it's all about having fun and becoming more powerful. Especially the expansions as it's just one giant telling of who has more power and that's....pretty much it.

Maybe they had too much peace? With no threat to the Jedi later on they saw no need to become more powerful.

 

This. EXACTLY this. People seem to forgot that at the time of the movies, the Jedi and Sith hadn't been at war for 1000 years. There was no conflict for 1000 years and for the most part, force users sort of lost their touch. In this era, there's war every few decades, and it's kill or be killed. Force users are typically more powerful in this era because they have to be. There are so many more force users and so much more conflict that the Jedi and Sith are forced to be stronger.

Well for one you're comparing a set of movies which try to tell a story, to a game where it's all about having fun and becoming more powerful. Especially the expansions as it's just one giant telling of who has more power and that's....pretty much it.

 

Plagueis successfully created a human being from the force. I don't recall any old republic person doing that.

How where the children of the emperor created again?

How where the children of the emperor created again?

 

When the Emperor and his lady get into the right frame of mind, they perform a series of manoeuvres ... and boom ... done.

 

Sanity on: Weren't they taken to the Emperor for some form of mind control ritual or something?

How where the children of the emperor created again?

 

They were ordinary children taken to the Emperor to have some ritual performed on them, so that they could be used as hosts.

When the Emperor and his lady get into the right frame of mind, they perform a series of manoeuvres ... and boom ... done.

 

Sanity on: Weren't they taken to the Emperor for some form of mind control ritual or something?

 

Where they now? It seems they might have been his actual children and that is strange since he was in another body not his and yet it happened all of them where force sensitive and all powerful force users. Some stronger then others but all force users.

I love the OId Republic and I love the movies, but I was watching the movies, prequels and sequels, and I just find myself in awe, like watching Yoda fight Dooku, like they're a bunch of weaklings. Dooku pulls a few pebbles from the ceiling and Yoda is all "powerful you have become" but that's like apprentice level stuff in TOR. Like, if this Jedi Order had to fight Vitiate/Valkorion, they'd be destroyed in seconds. What reason is there that the older Sith are so much more powerful than those who come after them? Like there honestly is no comparison AT ALL.

 

And yet we are to believe the all powerful Valkorian can be beaten by a solider a spy a hunter or a smuggler?

I think that it is all myths. The Old Republic story is being told through the lens of history and myth. This tends to amplify the powers, the effects and the visuals because that's what happens when stories are retold. It is more interesting when the Sith can throw around tons of lightning, the Jedi can throw massive boulders and one lone bounty hunter can take on an army on his own with his rocket launcher and flame throwers that can shoot flame 100 feet across.

 

These things probably only happened very rarely and were massive feats that were hard to replicate, but it helped create the myths of this time and these wars and that's what stuck around.

I love the OId Republic and I love the movies, but I was watching the movies, prequels and sequels, and I just find myself in awe, like watching Yoda fight Dooku, like they're a bunch of weaklings. Dooku pulls a few pebbles from the ceiling and Yoda is all "powerful you have become" but that's like apprentice level stuff in TOR. Like, if this Jedi Order had to fight Vitiate/Valkorion, they'd be destroyed in seconds. What reason is there that the older Sith are so much more powerful than those who come after them? Like there honestly is no comparison AT ALL.

This isn't just about Old Republic era, but about the expanded universe overall. The comics, books, videogames and other EU materials involved large amount of writers of varying quality, who were trying to make their stories to stand out by making their heroes and villains ridiculously powerful.

 

So while in movies the strongest Sith Lord has creepy voice and can shoot some weak nonlethal lightning, in expanded universe materials the strongest Sith Lords can consume all life on planets and do sh*t like that. It's just a consequence of little control from IP holder over the quality and consistency of the universe materials.

Welcome to the EU!

 

This is common throughout the Expanded Universe, where many writers feel a need to make their pet characters more powerful than those created by other Star Wars writers. They're all trying to do outdo each other. Eventually you land at a point where a villain eats planets for lunch, because apparently being a more 'mundane' archvillain like Palpatine is no longer good enough. You also get a hero like Revan, who is so super special than he can he switch between the dark and light side at will, and is the first ever to master both aspects of the force.

 

The problem of course is that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith lord ever according to the canon, and Anakin & Luke the most powerful Jedi, despite all the feats by EU heroes or villains that would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

It's one of many reasons why the EU sucks.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Aeneas_Falco

Its not like the EU did not prove that Sidious is the strongest sith to have ever existed you know with his ability to create force storm that can destroy entire fleets and life on entire planets.

Luke was proven to be the strongest jedi who can create mini black hole and is so strong that he could fight and defeat a living breathing manifestation of the chaos of the force basically a god. Or be capable of a force wave that obliterated a army of force resistant creatures. Yeah the EU proved that they are the strongest sith and jedi.

Welcome to the EU!

 

This is common throughout the Expanded Universe, where many writers feel a need to make their pet characters more powerful than those created by other Star Wars writers. They're all trying to do outdo each other. Eventually you land at a point where a villain eats planets for lunch, because apparently being a more 'mundane' archvillain like Palpatine is no longer good enough. You also get a hero like Revan, who is so super special than he can he switch between the dark and light side at will, and is the first ever to master both aspects of the force.

 

The problem of course is that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith lord ever according to the canon, and Anakin & Luke the most powerful Jedi, despite all the feats by EU heroes or villains that would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

It's one of many reasons why the EU sucks.

 

Revan didn't master both sides, he went completely insane. He used both, but really any Force User can do that.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Wolfninjajedi

Its not like the EU did not prove that Sidious is the strongest sith to have ever existed you know with his ability to create force storm that can destroy entire fleets and life on entire planets.

Luke was proven to be the strongest jedi who can create mini black hole and is so strong that he could fight and defeat a living breathing manifestation of the chaos of the force basically a god. Or be capable of a force wave that obliterated a army of force resistant creatures. Yeah the EU proved that they are the strongest sith and jedi.

 

Some writer decided to go back and prove how those two were the most powerful, but it still goes back to power creep and poor management.

 

Same happens in comics. Hell, Spider-Man is supposed to be the BEST Spider hero according to Marvel themselves, then they go around and make new Spider heroes who are stronger. Why? Because people want to show the new character is a bad-***.

 

Apparently, one can't be a bad-*** character without being better than the big name

*sigh*

 

I hope Disney does away with Luke and Palpatine being the most powerful Jedi and Sith ever. Yeah, they're cool, but they're so cringe in Legends that they left a bad taste in my mouth.