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Juggernaut vs Guardian dps in pvp


jojofx

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Hello folks, im quite new player in SWTOR, may i ask why i often see Guardians dps doing good in pvp and much less Juggernauts? Very often Guardian are in top damage positions in the list and the end of warzone.

Aren't juggernaut and guardians supposed to be similar?

Thanks.

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Easily seeing as neither of you post any evidence, i simply assume you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Go to parsely and look at logs. They're practically identical. WZ numbers have too many variables - skill, gear, objectives vs farming, the list goes on. Comparisons must eliminate as many of these variables as possible, thus the reason looking at the same person parsing using the same gear on the two different toons is the most accurate way to tell any differences.

 

But I, unlike you and the person you linked, can prove my point. Heres the leaderboard http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/guardian/vigilance/6500000/all/live/0/

http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/juggernaut/vengeance/6500000/all/live/0/

 

Come back when you have actual evidence.

Edited by KendraP
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So i'm the one who posted that other thread. You don't have to be a passive aggressive ******e about it. The reason i didn't give evidence is because i have no reason to prove myself. i know that both vigi and veng are completely equal. Never said anything otherwise. I was just looking for some suggestions as too what MY mistake or MY oversight was that was causing my parse difference. I did figure it out and im now parsing equally.
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i myself am a new player (quarantine is pretty boring so i decided to play). "oh look guardian does more damage than juggie"-literally never made that claim but thanks for trying to read? Sorry you aren't helpful and i seriously doubt you were trying to be. You're just another of the many toxic players that ruin this game by putting down newer players. An actual helpful player did give me a few possible overlooks i made and the issue was resolved.
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  • 2 weeks later...
Guardians and juggernauts are identical in playstyle, and both dps specs suck in pvp at the moment.

Hi there

 

so I just came back as well after a 7 year hiatus, but had played op and socundrel to 31 (that was a grind).

Seems like leveling has been exponetially made easier as i made level 38 in one day atm on my vig guardian.

 

anyhow-- my question is this-- if DPS guardians are glassy, are their dual wielding counterparts not?

Would it benefit me to play the sentinal over the guardian if my goal is to dps in pvp and pve?

 

thanks up front

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Leveling has been made far easier, if you ask me for the better!

 

Short answer is yes, a sent played properly will be a bit more survivable under focus. Concentration sent in particular plays identically to focus guardian, and basically does everything focus can, but better. Watchman is in a decent place as well. Combat, I can't see being bothered with.

 

Longer answer:

 

For PvE I'd say play what you want. I'm no NiMer myself, and I like vigi guardian, so its what I play.

 

For PvP regs, I still say play what you want. The odd occasion where you'll be focused by multiple opponents still sucks but the point of the game mode isn't to kill enemies before they kill you.

 

For ranked PvP/arenas: God help you if you want to begin this format. I outlined my experience attempting it post 6.0 elsewhere, but let's sum it up as unless you want to face a wall of hostility, don't play dps guardian in ranked pvp.

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thank you!

 

btw is the deffense guardian modded with dps upgrades still viable?

 

definitely, guardian tanks are probably the best tanks right now.

 

for pve, i would get tank gear for all non-solo pve content though

for pvp, dps gear is often more useful than tank gear (shield/dps item mods in the oh)

Edited by KendraP
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Eventually i made also a marauder and now i got either juggernaut and marauder at lvl 75 with decent equip (full set bonus) and i can give you my opinion based on my short career in swtor.

As kendraP said you can play whatever class with wathever discipline in pve, it really doesn't matter since levelling is really easy.

I'd say the same for pvp unranked as the damage dealt from the juggernaut is not that much lower than marauder (he also got a slighty buff with today patch).

The real problem of the dps juggernaut (vengeance and rage) it seems to come with his survavibility and thus in ranked.

If you get targeted/tunneled for more than few seconds you have no way to remain alive for long. Enraged Defense is simply not enough to keep you alive not even for the tactical "Grit teeth" (which decrease its cooldown) to reset the cooldown of Enraged defense. Maybe a little help could be the tactical that restore your full health once you reach 20% of hp but it has 10min cooldown so you would be able to use only once in the whole warzone fights.

At contrary the marauder has much more defensive cooldown and utilities that could keep him alive and safe while still dealing nice damage.

I honestly can't understand this choice from bioware since juggernaut is supposed to be a more tanky class and should have more defensive cooldown in my opinion.

This is a bit of a shame in my point of view since i still prefer the juggernaut as typology of class (one handed lightsaber).

 

I hope this can help you a bit understand both classes.

Cheers.

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thank you

 

btw what does defensives doe the sent class have that the guardian doesnt that makes it more survivable?

 

the biggest one is their stealth out, which can be improved with a tactical. We share Saber ward. But we get a fake heal, self heal, and reflect. They get rebuke, stealth out, and guarded by the force.

 

I think the issue is ours are hard to balance, because our deal is the self heal (FD). It seems its either scaled to the point of near uselessness (like it is now) or its an "extra life".

 

A simple thing to me would be to improve our reflect to make it work on more damage types (like a mercs, minus the healing factor). This would make it a proper antifocus tool, without being an "extra life" because even if opponents hit you through it, they don't heal you.

Edited by KendraP
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The sentinel/marauder have:

- 99% damage reduction for 4 sec (+2 sec with utility)

- 20% reduction of all damage taken virtually for 30 sec (1min cd and cd can be decreased with utility)

- Saber ward (which can heal and give you cc imunity with utility)

- Stealth for 4 sec and 45sec cd (+2 sec with utility, and cd can be reset with predation if you got tactical)

- Obfuscate which reduces 90% of enemy accuracy for 6sec (and with utility you can get a reduction of 75% to force and tech damage)

- Fury marauder also get immunity to cc for 6 sec when he uses Force Crush

 

The juggernaut/guardian (dps spec) have:

- Enraged defense (which is probably the best defensive cd in the game)

- Saber Ward

- Saber Reflect

- Endure Pain which increases your hp for a short duration (i find this nearly useless as when it expires you still lose the health you would've lose if you didn't activate this skill)

 

Now tell me if this makes any sense to you? The juggernaut being a tank class have much less defensive and way to mitigate damage than a full dps class.

Honestly i really think skill like Endure Pain should be redesigned in a more useful skill or maybe i just don't get this skill right.

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-snip-

- Enraged defense (which is probably the best defensive cd in the game)

 

- Endure Pain which increases your hp for a short duration (i find this nearly useless as when it expires you still lose the health you would've lose if you didn't activate this skill)

 

Honestly i really think skill like Endure Pain should be redesigned in a more useful skill or maybe i just don't get this skill right.

 

Try to use Endure Pain and then Enraged Defense together. Always popping Endure pain first.

 

This can increase your health pool, give damage reduction and heal you. Works great under focus. You can even tap into a saber reflect at the end to keep your health pool up for a little longer.

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Try to use Endure Pain and then Enraged Defense together. Always popping Endure pain first.

 

This can increase your health pool, give damage reduction and heal you. Works great under focus. You can even tap into a saber reflect at the end to keep your health pool up for a little longer.

 

or enure with a medpack, Same concept.

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Thanks for the advices folks. I'll try to get habit and use Endure always before Enraged defense and medpacs but still i think Endure Pain is much more a pve skill than pvp, it has not much sense as it is now.

Though i'll keep experiment these mechanics and try to learn it better.

Was the juggernaut dps much more viable in ranked in the previous patches?

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Was the juggernaut dps much more viable in ranked in the previous patches?

 

Yes they have been. They are still significant damage dealers in ranked but other classes are out performing them this season. Experienced ranked players can either burst through enraged defense or they just avoid you completely when activated. They are often tunneled and against an op, sin, pt, mara, or merc combo.....it tough to stay up.

 

I have experimented with various gear sets, swapped various tacticals, etc.... If you can stay up long enough to let your teammates take one of them out before they get you, you can win.

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  • 1 month later...
Easily seeing as neither of you post any evidence, i simply assume you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Go to parsely and look at logs. They're practically identical. WZ numbers have too many variables - skill, gear, objectives vs farming, the list goes on. Comparisons must eliminate as many of these variables as possible, thus the reason looking at the same person parsing using the same gear on the two different toons is the most accurate way to tell any differences.

 

But I, unlike you and the person you linked, can prove my point. Heres the leaderboard http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/guardian/vigilance/6500000/all/live/0/

http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/juggernaut/vengeance/6500000/all/live/0/

 

Come back when you have actual evidence.

 

Where does the TTK number come from? I assume it stands for Time to Kill and lower is better, but how is calculated? Dummy targets?

 

Off topic:

but, this is where swtor is laughable compared to WoW. The data metrics are a joke.

 

Example:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/bleeding-hollow/diecruxx#bybracket=1&partition=2

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RnM2y6VXd3KAWkrp#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=16

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Where does the TTK number come from? I assume it stands for Time to Kill and lower is better, but how is calculated? Dummy targets?

 

Off topic:

but, this is where swtor is laughable compared to WoW. The data metrics are a joke.

 

Example:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/bleeding-hollow/diecruxx#bybracket=1&partition=2

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RnM2y6VXd3KAWkrp#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=16

 

Yes what I linked is a website that has parse logs on dummy targets.

 

And yes, I agree that swtor metrics are dumb, which is sort of the point I was making to the guy posting the wz leader board. Too many variables to reject he null hypothesis that "guardian and juggie are mechanically identical".

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  • 6 months later...
I agree with KendraP with one caveat:

 

If the animations are the same duration then yes they are identical. If the animation times to complete a dps move differ then there is a difference.

 

i mean the original point was based on the warzone scoreboard in a different thread. if the animation time is different, we're talking milliseconds, which isn't going to be broadly noticeable on a leaderboard dominated by variables like gear, skill, objectives, etc.

 

again, look at the parsely boards for ideally the same guy with the same gear/utlitilies/etc, but on a juggernaut and on a guardian. The numbers don't seem to be different enough to say one is better than the other. If someone wishes to claim a nanosecond makes some kind of macro-scale difference, please show me the math.

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