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Guard only for Tank disciplines in 6.0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Guard only for Tank disciplines in 6.0

Kannuki's Avatar


Kannuki
07.08.2019 , 12:42 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
2/3 of that is beside the point of the thread, which is simply about dps specs guarding. I would remind people that a tank spec running dps gear is not in fact a dps
A dps geared Tank is:

- The only way to play PvP currently since tank gear isn't useful. This is a problem in my opinion.
- Does enough damage that they can actually kill and otherwise cause significant pressure. Perhaps not as much as a true DPS, but still significant. This is fine as it is a reward for gearing as a DPS, but gives up little in order to pump out more damage.

As for DPS with guard, yes. This can be problematic for the DPS of course, but in most scenarios (in my mind), the pros outweigh the cons. Huge protection for the healer, many times causing focus to move away from the healer and allowing the healer to free cast. Sure, with enough focus the DPS itself or the healer can still die. But it causes a gameplay change and a strategy adjustment on the opposing team in order to deal with this.

For example, if I'm killing the healer, using my CC's appropriately, giving the healer a hard time in general, once guard goes on the healer, it's like a lifesaver for the healer and I must now depend on PUGS to assist me on whether I choose to continue the pressure on the healer, or go after the DPS that guarded the healer (which is also not clearly visible).

I agree with DPS retaining taunt, but not guard for these reasons, and on top of that, the tank player should be rewarded for wearing tank gear. That reward would be the means to protect other players in such a way to justify the strategy adjustments it invites.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.08.2019 , 12:57 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kannuki View Post
snip
I said nothing about my opinion on either matter.
I simply said that this thread is not about tank gearing; but dps guarding, which are two different subjects, unless one is implying that:

Dps specs of tank capable classes are as tanky as tank specs AND
Tanks have the dps throughput of a dps

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
07.08.2019 , 01:16 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
The 6 Dps specs who can guard adds a lot of complexity to teamfights. It can be a huge risk that can cost you, but if done properly you can save teammates with it. With 6.0 a lot of things will be changing which will be extremely refreshing. Removing the guard option from dps specs should not be one of them. The game is team oriented and the more they remove from that aspect and focus on individuals, the less interesting pvp will get, atleast to me.
Yes yes.. I get it, you say the same boring stuff over and over again and care about your selfish interests only.

It's obvious you play some kind DPS spec which uses guard and you come here trying to convince others how complex fights are when One team has dps with guards and the other one has none... "yawn"

You know adding guard to DPS was a bad move, everyone knows it. Guarding is the tank's business and should be the tank's only. DPS were fine with their taunts. But I know you are some kind of accomplished meme PVP god and you're going to reply with some deep PVP philosophy . so please don't even bother to reply to this post. I've already gotten the picture from your debate with Alex.

peace

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
07.08.2019 , 02:09 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
I don't think it has single-handedly made solo ranked cancer.
players really do not understand the significance of 50% damage reduction is in a game. that is the difference between someone dying in a double hardstun or not, or you unloading all your burst into a target who is 50% just to survive it all.

play and watch hundreds of solo ranked games by decent players. giving dps easy accessibility to guard is actually one of the main factors one team loses or wins in above average to high level games (even more so if healers are in play). it arguably can be even a bigger factor than who is playing on each side and the classes are. when it comes to even matches if you have 2 off guards and the other team has 1, it is the main factor why you will be winning. this is the reason why majority of ranked players complain about dps off guarding.

dps having easy accessibility to the guard mechanic, with little to counterbalance it's strength, should be addressed.



on a side note/tangent i think it's also worth addressing a lot of these issues also come from lack of population in solo ranked. if the population was more healthy we could have class balancing as well as elo balancing between each team. this would allow each team to have the same number of off healers or off guards which would create more far matches and this discussion would be irrelevant.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
07.08.2019 , 03:02 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kannuki View Post
But it causes a gameplay change and a strategy adjustment on the opposing team in order to deal with this.
I'm proud that you realize this, now take step two and figure out the way to beat it. Most people just don't seem to want to do the thinking for themselves.

Everyone agrees that 50% damage transfer is very strong. But when a dps guards someone, it creates a huge weakness which no one seems to want to talk about. I'll let someone else actually think and hopefully point it out.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
07.08.2019 , 03:09 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
Yes yes.. I get it, you say the same boring stuff over and over again and care about your selfish interests only.
Kinda ironic, since it is you guys that want to make the game more boring for everyone by removing it

I'm all for complexity in pvp and will always advocate for it. Chess > Checkers
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
07.08.2019 , 03:14 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
NO it should be removed. With new changes dps juggs will have great buff to survivability. If they will be able to save team mates from death while also not dying from their own guard thanks to double ED grit teeth item, this will be too opped for a dps class you know. IT ruins most of fights and gives this class unfair advantage.
With all the changes comming in 6.0, i want to see how it goes and make adjustments after (and quicker) if necessary.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
07.08.2019 , 03:45 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
players really do not understand the significance of 50% damage reduction is in a game. that is the difference between someone dying in a double hardstun or not, or you unloading all your burst into a target who is 50% just to survive it all.

play and watch hundreds of solo ranked games by decent players. giving dps easy accessibility to guard is actually one of the main factors one team loses or wins in above average to high level games (even more so if healers are in play).
I guarantee you that I play more solo ranked than anyone you talk to about pvp. And I probably maintain a higher rating than the vast majority of them as well. I know much better than you what happens in solo ranked matches. (Note that I'm not claiming to be an amazing player, but I've played hundreds and hundreds of solo ranked matches at a high rating this season alone). Guard by dps is indeed very strong, but it doesn't happen in the majority of games. That is a fact. It certainly can be a huge factor if it is being used.

Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
it arguably can be even a bigger factor than who is playing on each side and the classes are. when it comes to even matches if you have 2 off guards and the other team has 1, it is the main factor why you will be winning. this is the reason why majority of ranked players complain about dps off guarding.

dps having easy accessibility to the guard mechanic, with little to counterbalance it's strength, should be addressed.
This is all what I said in my post put into different words...

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
I'm proud that you realize this, now take step two and figure out the way to beat it. Most people just don't seem to want to do the thinking for themselves.

Everyone agrees that 50% damage transfer is very strong. But when a dps guards someone, it creates a huge weakness which no one seems to want to talk about. I'll let someone else actually think and hopefully point it out.
Just because it can be beaten does not mean that it isn't too powerful and shouldn't be changed. That seems to be a hard concept for you to grasp.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
Kinda ironic, since it is you guys that want to make the game more boring for everyone by removing it

I'm all for complexity in pvp and will always advocate for it. Chess > Checkers
I love how Zurules thinks that putting guard on someone is some kind of strategic wizardry, and not a relatively easy tactic to use with disproportionate effectiveness.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.08.2019 , 04:38 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
i seen how guard on dps players has literally single handled made solo ranked cancer.
yep. this has been the case since arenas were introduced. the matchmaker does not and (apparently) is not capable of taking gimp guarding into consideration. it's always been game-breaking, particularly in healer + 3 dps matches in which one team has at least one dps capable (let alone willing) to off guard, and the other team does not.

this effectively ruins the role balancing mechanism of solo ranked. it was the same issue with hybrid sages back in the day. they obviously weren't as effective as a fully spec'd healer, but in matches absent dedicated healers, they were cancer (which was most pops).

I must say that most of the pops I've had this season have at least one support role. that's a relief. the 4v4 dps matches are just foreign to the basic conceit of the game and the root cause of all of the class balance issues.
Krack

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
07.08.2019 , 05:01 PM | #20
If a team only has 1 dps that can guard and you are having trouble dealing with it, then it is 100% a l2p issue.

Having 2 off guards swapping between each other is slower to kill someone, but it is also harder to execute.

Dont forget, all the off tanks specs are squishy and dont have many dcds, only jugg/guardians can off guard slightly better imo because they have 2 lives without resetting.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow