I'm leveling on Hoth with an alt and I got to thinking...wouldn't Hoth be more colonized in the future?

 

 

But instead Hoth is a barren desolate world at the time of the movies.

 

Same thing can be applied to Tatooine.

 

 

 

So this makes me think that the galaxy went through at least 3000 years of dark ages, where little to no colonization was occurring.

Whatever happens in SWTOR, it has to end with the Galactic Republic winning and the Sith Empire being broken/scattered once again.

 

KOTOR took place in the late 3900s BBY. The Sith Empire attacked (again) in 3681 BBY, the Treaty occurred in 3653 BBY, and SWTOR takes place in 3643 BBY forward (we should be around 3640/3639 BBY right now).

 

We know that by the 3500s BBY the Sith Empire was very likely defeated, since the most notable thing in that era was a single fallen Jedi (Darth Desolous) waging a guerilla war on the Jedi with his own cult.

 

We also know the Republic was still alive and well, initiating for example first contact with the Iktotchi (3500s), discovering Yavin yet again (3200s), witnessed the final rivalry between Alsakan and Coruscant to be the Republic's Capital (3000s) , the Jedi are merrily constructing the Hall of Archives on Coruscant (2500s)... etc etc etc.

 

Nothing very interesting happening from the mid-3000s through the 2000s, just business-as-usual for the Republic and galaxy.

 

We don't see anything very important historically for another 1500 years after that, until 2000 BBY when the "New" Sith Wars break out, which last 1000 years and lead to the "final" defeat of the Sith, after which the Jedi go on a hellbent quest across the galaxy to stomp all knowledge of Sith from existence.

 

The Ruusan Reformation follows, creating the Golden Age of the Republic that lasts for almost 1000 years (1000 BBY to ~20 BBY) before a hidden line of Sith Lords ending with Palpatine successfully destroys the Republic and Jedi from within.

 

Based on these points, we can sort-of infer that the Sith Empire of SWTOR will be in ruins by 3500 BBY, or about 150 years from the current time. Since it's very unlikely that SWTOR will last for 150 more "chapters", this gives BioWare plenty of flexibility for stringing out the conflict indefinitely.

 

Of course, EU canons are always fluid and malleable, so "anything" could be inserted into the past or the huge relatively-empty gaps in the timeline between the Great Galactic War of the 3600s and the New Sith Wars of 2000-1000 BBY.

 

But to answer your general question: No, we definitely don't end in a "dark age", in fact the conflict clearly ends firmly in favor of the Republic which continues to flourish for thousands of years more.

 

Hoth and Tatooine are never colonized because — if you'll pardon my crassness — they're ****-holes no one wants to live in, far away from the center of civilization (the Galactic Core) in the distant and relatively-ungoverned Outer Rim of the galaxy, with inhospitable climates and low natural resources.

 

No one wants to live there, and since there's thousands and thousands of better planets in the galaxy closer to the core and under better control and regulation of governments like the Republic — no one does.

Edited April 7, 2014 by SW_display_name

Whatever happens in SWTOR, it has to end with the Galactic Republic winning and the Sith Empire being broken/scattered once again.

 

KOTOR took place in the late 3900s BBY. The Sith Empire attacked (again) in 3681 BBY, the Treaty occurred in 3653 BBY, and SWTOR takes place in 3643 BBY forward (we should be around 3640/3639 BBY right now).

 

We know that by the 3500s BBY the Sith Empire was very likely defeated, since the most notable thing in that era was a single fallen Jedi (Darth Desolous) waging a guerilla war on the Jedi with his own cult.

 

We also know the Republic was still alive and well, initiating for example first contact with the Iktotchi (3500s), discovering Yavin yet again (3200s), witnessed the final rivalry between Alsakan and Coruscant to be the Republic's Capital (3000s) , the Jedi are merrily constructing the Hall of Archives on Coruscant (2500s)... etc etc etc.

 

Nothing very interesting happening from the mid-3000s through the 2000s, just business-as-usual for the Republic and galaxy.

 

We don't see anything very important historically for another 1500 years after that, until 2000 BBY when the "New" Sith Wars break out, which last 1000 years and lead to the "final" defeat of the Sith, after which the Jedi go on a hellbent quest across the galaxy to stomp all knowledge of Sith from existence.

 

The Ruusan Reformation follows, creating the Golden Age of the Republic that lasts for almost 1000 years (1000 BBY to ~20 BBY) before a hidden line of Sith Lords ending with Palpatine successfully destroys the Republic and Jedi from within.

 

Based on these points, we can sort-of infer that the Sith Empire of SWTOR will be in ruins by 3500 BBY, or about 150 years from the current time. Since it's very unlikely that SWTOR will last for 150 more "chapters", this gives BioWare plenty of flexibility for stringing out the conflict indefinitely.

 

Of course, EU canons are always fluid and malleable, so "anything" could be inserted into the past or the huge relatively-empty gaps in the timeline between the Great Galactic War of the 3600s and the New Sith Wars of 2000-1000 BBY.

 

But to answer your general question: No, we definitely don't end in a "dark age", in fact the conflict clearly ends firmly in favor of the Republic which continues to flourish for thousands of years more.

 

While this is correct, there is one error, we don't know for sure what the outcome of the Second Great Galactic War is. We have about 150-200 years of empty space in between the current time, and the time of Darth Desolus. The Sith Empire could have very well won the war and kept in power for the next 200 years.

I'm leveling on Hoth with an alt and I got to thinking...wouldn't Hoth be more colonized in the future?

 

 

But instead Hoth is a barren desolate world at the time of the movies.

 

Same thing can be applied to Tatooine.

 

 

 

So this makes me think that the galaxy went through at least 3000 years of dark ages, where little to no colonization was occurring.

Well there was definitely a Dark Age, which lasted 100 years, but that took place from 1100-1000 years before the movies as a result of the New Sith Wars. When Palapatine says the Republic has "Stood for 1,000 years" and someone says "There hasn't been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic" in Episode 2, they are both dating from the 'rebirth' of the Republic at the end of that Dark Age.

 

That Dark Age, and the 1,000 years of war (!!) during the New Sith Wars that caused it, are usually cited as the reason some planets haven't developed or others have been described as "being discovered" at radically different times (basically it was a useful retcon to explain inconsistencies as the timeline has been fleshed out over the years).

 

But there's very little established in the lore about the time between this game and the start of the New Sith Wars 1,500 years later. So it's entirely possible there was an earlier Dark Age or any number of other results at the end of the conflict in TOR, that just hasn't been added to the timeline yet.

While this is correct, there is one error, we don't know for sure what the outcome of the Second Great Galactic War is. We have about 150-200 years of empty space in between the current time, and the time of Darth Desolus. The Sith Empire could have very well won the war and kept in power for the next 200 years.

Right, like I said they can insert almost anything into the huge comfy gaps of dead time we have in the distant past since the ancient timelines aren't as jam-packed and cluttered as the "Lucas" eras the movies are immersed in.

 

But since we don't have any historical data about the Republic being wiped from existence (that would seem important), we know the Republic and Jedi remained active throughout the 3000s and 2000s, and we're repeatedly told that Palpatine's coup destroyed a Republic that had held firm for countless millenia and we know the Sith Empire is not interested in just "winning", its goal is total annihilation —

 

I think it's safe to infer that the Republic has to win the war in the end in order for the next several millenia of galactic history to make sense.

That Dark Age, and the 1,000 years of war (!!)

It's worth noting that the New Sith Wars encompasses roughly 1000 years of conflict but that it wasn't one continuous conflict but a series of smaller wars which can be historically chained together in retrospect.

 

It's not meant as nitpicking but just to visualize it properly as more like a Republic akin to the Roman Empire being picked at on all sides by outside forces, rather than what we have in SWTOR where it's clearly two giant unified powerhouses slamming heads for decades.

 

Sort-of like the "Old Sith Wars" encompass a long period of time that includes Revan & Malak's war on the Republic, the ensuing Sith Civial War, the Sith Triumvirate Purges that Meetra Surik fought, etc.

 

But there's very little established in the lore about the time between this game and the start of the New Sith Wars 1,500 years later. So it's entirely possible there was an earlier Dark Age or any number of other results at the end of the conflict in TOR, that just hasn't been added to the timeline yet.

Actually, I sort-of see what you guys are saying. It's not implausible to insert a period where the Empire has eradicated large portions of the Republic, EU writers have played this card over and over throughout the timeline of the SW galaxy. All you need is a gap of 1-2 hundred years here or there and you can insert a Dark Age almost anywhere.

 

But I guess, to stay focused on the OP's question — the 'Dark Ages' always pass (not 3000 years long or anything close) and they're not really the reason that crappy planets aren't more extensively colonized. They're just crappy planets.

 

It takes an enormous amount of resources and coordination for the Republic to hold and maintain what it has, and this is mostly concentrated in the Core Worlds where the Republic originated and gradually expands out from there. As you get farther from Coruscant/Corellia/etc. you see a gradient fading of influence from the cosmopolitan galactic center as you reach the Mid and then mostly-lawless Outer Rims.

 

So there's just not a lot of impetus to invest efforts in either developing or holding distant fringe worlds, if you look at eg. the Kanz Disorders you see why the Republic learned not to stretch itself too thin across the galaxy (well supposedly, it still expands and contracts nonstop throughout the timeline as new hyperlanes are engineered).

Edited April 7, 2014 by SW_display_name

There really isn't much cause to colonize Hoth or Tattooine. There's not really any natural resources to speak of plus they're both pretty inhospitable.

The correct answer is that during the Fourth Great Schism or the New Sith Wars, the tail century resulted in a Dark Age of the Republic.

 

Like the Middle or "Medieval" Ages of Europe. The Republic suffered a technological and cultural regression in which forward progress was effectively halted. In fact, they went backwards. The Jedi Order however became a war machine to match that of the Sith Order resulting in the two great powers becoming the Brotherhood of Darkness and the Army of Light.

 

Giant swaths of space previously governed by the Republic were taken over by the two sides which saw oversight in the form of both Sith and Jedi Warlords. Sith and Jedi who ruled said sections while the Republic languished and lay in ruin.

 

There were seven battles over the planet Ruusian during this conflict. The most pivitol was the Seventh in which the Army of Light utterly destroyed the final reminats of the Brotherhood of Darkness leaving only Darth Bane as the sole survivor. The very Darth Bane who would institute the Rule of Two.

 

The Brotherhood had rampaged unchecked throughout the galaxy during the New Sith Wars destroying much of the Old Republic to the point where Jedi had taken over entirely. Jedi served as Senators and there was a long chain of elected Jedi Chancellors.

 

Now understand that the Russian Reformation was essentially to demilitarize the Jedi Order and restore it to the separate entity we know in the Prequels. Much of the history before the Dark Ages was lost and certain planets like Tatooine were abandoned only to be recolonized around or after the Reformation.

 

It is also during the Reformation that the Republic itself was demilitarized which is why the Republic had to use Clone Soldiers in the Clone Wars because there was no standing Republic Armed Forces as there is here in the Old Republic.

 

Is there a Dark Age which explains why certain planets are no longer inhabited the way they were?

Yes.

 

Is the war we're currently playing in TOR responsible for it?

No.

Is there a Dark Age which explains why certain planets are no longer inhabited the way they were?

Yes.

Only sort-of. It can be invoked when necessary, but the real loss of history occurred with both the Jedi purges of Sith knowledge post-Ruusan (a defensive ignorance that, ironically, helped the Sith regain power in the end) and Palpatine's New Order consciously eradicating Jedi history and rewriting public knowledge for propaganda purposes.

 

In the Dark Ages of the New Sith Wars, the Republic was brought low as a political entity, but it wasn't actually eradicated as a concept and culture. People still remembered the general galactic history, which is why there was a Republic to 'reform' post-Ruusaan and a Senate left standing to request the Jedi relinquish their military powers. Plus, the wider galaxy (not everyone was ever part of the Republic) continued its histories and traditions.

 

What the New Sith Wars era did do — and it wasn't just the Dark Ages of the last century, it was the entire period — was force Republic power and influence back toward the Core / Expansion Territory and left the Mid and Outer Rims more wild. But, it's a matter of degrees — the Outer Rim was always wild and "still is" in EU terms.

 

Keep in mind that based on what's known, the Republic was already in decline as it entered the 2000 BBY millenium. The New Sith Empire just took advantage of this, and as it gained momentum, so did lots of other opportunists, not all of them strictly Sith-affiliated. The Republic was being picked clean from all sides, and no longer had the resources or power to hold itself together, so kept contracting toward the Core.

 

But this doesn't apply to worlds like Hoth and Tatooine, which were never very inhabited and never really under firm Republic influence or any other government. They were constantly inhabited, abandoned, and re-inhabited throughout their histories simply because they were so far from the core of civilization and of so little interest for any reason.

 

This is fun. I love debating SW history.

I would agree.

 

In fact the Ruusan Reformation was designed to fix a slip up in the original Movies.

 

In Episode Four, Obi-wan says that the Republic had "Stood for Thousands of Years" implying that the Empire, once the Republic, had existed for as long has it had.

 

Palpatine however in Episode Two I think it was states that the Republic had "existed for 1000 years." That's 1000 years EXACTLY.

 

Oops. Conflicting Paradox.

 

The Dark Ages and the Russan Reformation were invoked to fix that conflict of interest. So it's indeed possible for people to remember two sets of conflicting histories.

Worse than that — I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan says "thousands of generations" which is how we ended up with the assumption in EU continuity that the Pub existed for like 20,000+ years. Then yes we get Palpatine's firm 1000-year comment.

 

That, and I think someone else in the prequels said something along the lines of "there's never been a true war in the history of the Republic" (paraphrasing) with again is like :confused:

 

So yeah, you're right, Ruusan and the Dark Age was explicitly engineered to mark a period of time where the Republic crumbled so badly that it was common in the 'reformed' Golden Age Republic to view it as a separate/reborn entity. But, it's important to remember that in literal terms, both Republics were a direct continuing line in terms of culture, environment, inhabitants, etc.

 

That's not to say that the NSW era didn't do huge damage to the Republic's presence and influence in the Mid/Outer Rim — it absolutely did, similar to the lingering effects of (for example) the ancient xenophobic/genocidal Pius Dea crusades are attributed to anti-Human sentiment even "now" in certain territories (especially fringe).

Whatever happens in SWTOR, it has to end with the Galactic Republic winning and the Sith Empire being broken/scattered once again.

 

One of the reasons Darth Bane started the Rule of Two is because the Sith would always fail due to infighting. I thought the writers said that the Sith undo themselves (naturally) and the Empire and Republic come to an understanding and merge over time. That is the envisioned ending of this chapter in history. The Empire is never outright defeated.

One of the reasons Darth Bane started the Rule of Two is because the Sith would always fail due to infighting. I thought the writers said that the Sith undo themselves (naturally) and the Empire and Republic come to an understanding and merge over time. That is the envisioned ending of this chapter in history. The Empire is never outright defeated.

That makes sense enough. Really, it's what I've been imagining since I started playing — if you just took the Sith away, the everyday people of both Republic and Empire seem fairly similar and would probably join forces.

 

Part of what this Sith Empire incarnation seems to rely on to whip up its citizens is the propaganda that the Jedi and Republic are in some way villainous or evil. As Jadus points out himself in the Agent plot, the common citizens of the Empire are completely out-of-the-loop in terms of actual Sith philosophy and beliefs.

 

But the longer the war drags on, the harder it's going to be to keep painting distorted images of the Jedi/Republic, since it's almost impossible to succeed at full censorship in the galaxy vs. say one country (eg North Korea).

 

Now objectively speaking, it is reasonable to see why the Sith themselves would genuinely believe the Jedi/Republic are villainous. If you start from the premise that both Dark & Light are equally-viable philosophies, then the 'light' dominance is just lucky circumstances and the Jedi/Republic are jerks and religious zealots as much as the Sith.

 

But in order to establish themselves, the Sith rely on an army and economy and population that seems to be heavily composed of 'average' people — ones that are very similar in basic beliefs to the Republic (eg, they dislike pain, conflict, suffering, just want to live their lives & be happy, etc).

 

That's a recipe for disaster, to try to rule a population that fundamentally doesn't share your core beliefs. But I'm guessing the Sith don't want their population sharing their core beliefs for the very reason the Sith view Jedi/Republic beliefs as heresy — a population raised on true Sith doctrine would (in their eyes) become significantly more powerful, independent, and less likely to fear their masters.

 

But in the process of keeping their citizens suppressed like that, they inadvertently make it easier for them to identify and sympathize with their enemies.

Edited April 8, 2014 by SW_display_name

Not to mention the Senate (and Republic by virtue) catches a lot of flak.

 

A lot of it. Which is only natural when you're dealing with a government that has, realistically, thousands of member states and their representatives. It's hard to keep track of it all. A war gets forgotten or brushed away here, some social injustice gets a slap on the wrist there, the Republic continues to think it does such an awesome job but meanwhile you get planets or even entire systems and sectors who first-hand witness Republic Corruption. And they don't like it.

 

Then this Empire comes along saying that they have strong leadership (ha) and no corruption (haha), and where The Republic failed, The Empire would succeed. Hell, that idea alone is how I play my Imperial Agent; The Empire is a force for change against the stagnant, bureaucratic Republic that forgets the little guy under the weight of the entire Galaxy.

 

So yes, the people aren't really all that different at all. You see a lot of extremists in TOR, but that's a natural part of societies too. In the end, the civilians on all sides just want peace and a return to trade and prosperity, rather than living in fear under the threat of war. So most likely, The Empire was defeated, or at least absorbed, by The Republic, and the focus went back towards rebuilding after the war.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Darth Desolus conflict receives a few retcons in the future.