I would stop using that term if i were you.It triggers forum warriors and i think they have a notification in their android if that phrase appears somewhere in these forums. We don't want andryah, kodrac and co to come here with their zero argument walls of text.

 

Who's the triggered forum warrior? It's a different opinion. It's sad, really, that you can't understand other people may not agree with you.

Edited September 12, 2018 by kodrac

Just a few too many trolls over there that argue the opposite to logic. One would say they are illogical in a lot of their arguments and assumptions. Often emotion rules their arguments and if they have cold hard facts or logic presented to them, they turn to personal attacks and coordinate between them to belittle people till they give up.

They also target pvpers like we are a disease. Most of them hate us with a passion and if you use pvp as part of your argument, you attract support trolls as well. They will go out of their way to blame pvp and pvpers for the problems in this game.

They believe they own the general section and us filthy pvpers should stay away from real game conversations

The general section is “forum pvp” and most of those matches are like the Empire (trolls) vs Rep (logical people). They have more numbers. It’s 6v1 most of the time and they try and overwhelm you in a death match. You need to out think them and try and stay emotionless. “Play the objectives and let them death match”.

They rarely step into the pvp section (OWPVP) because they know they would be annihilate.

 

I've always respected your opinions, and very rarely disagreed with them. And I feel like PvP (and APAC players too for that matter) needs an advocate like you with a voice and personality as strong as yours, but then you go and flush it all down the drain with a post as disrespectful as this one.

 

And the irony of your post is that mhobin stepped into General Discussion and discovered people surprisingly had a different opinion. It's what happens when you step out of your bubble. He should replace the word logic with the words complete agreement. And then you go and take it to another level entirely in agreement. It's like, geez, tell us how you really feel. I'm sorry not sorry that the world is not a feedback loop.

Edited September 12, 2018 by kodrac

Nothing surprising here.. I read the "shocking" news while on holiday.

 

Here is the thing, a game developer has to keep it's clientele hooked/interested in the game, they have to give them a reason to play it and spend money on their product.

 

They can do this by either releasing new and challenging content, which isn't the case here, or they gives us another gear grind... Please don't tell me you are shocked.

 

The worse part here is that it might be 100% craftable only ? really ? so now PVP-ers have to become mat farmers and crafters ? wow... what a massive plot twist.

 

You know what ? I will become a cartel market whale to save myself from the horror of getting mats and gonna pay some crafter to make me gear, but OH WAIT.... I won't be able to do that cause the mats and armor will be bound to character.

 

I feel doomed...

If someone walks into a crowded theater, and yells "FIRE!" and a bunch of people get hurt as a result, is it the theater patron's fault or is it the guy who caused the panic in the first place?

 

Cause that's the mmo equivalent of what Keith and Eric did, basically.

 

It's irresponsible to just casually announce a major change like the craft only tier 5 without providing specific details. It's just setting up what is left of the community to attack each other based on arguments that may or may not have any merit. We can't even begin to understand the situation or provide feedback. They've been around the block, and they knew this controversy was going to pan out this way.

If someone walks into a crowded theater, and yells "FIRE!" and a bunch of people get hurt as a result, is it the theater patron's fault or is it the guy who caused the panic in the first place?

 

Cause that's the mmo equivalent of what Keith and Eric did, basically.

 

It's irresponsible to just casually announce a major change like the craft only tier 5 without providing specific details. It's just setting up what is left of the community to attack each other based on arguments that may or may not have any merit. We can't even begin to understand the situation or provide feedback. They've been around the block, and they knew this controversy was going to pan out this way.

 

Yeah, It's pointless to fight each other. The real enemy is that announcement -- and the silence from the devs afterward.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

If someone walks into a crowded theater, and yells "FIRE!" and a bunch of people get hurt as a result, is it the theater patron's fault or is it the guy who caused the panic in the first place?

 

Cause that's the mmo equivalent of what Keith and Eric did, basically.

 

It's irresponsible to just casually announce a major change like the craft only tier 5 without providing specific details. It's just setting up what is left of the community to attack each other based on arguments that may or may not have any merit. We can't even begin to understand the situation or provide feedback. They've been around the block, and they knew this controversy was going to pan out this way.

 

Emphasis mine. That's the perfect word to describe it.

The PVPer in me hates this change and thinks it is basically a pay-to-win system in disguise. The new mats will be rare enough to be super expensive which will also mean each crafted gear piece will be very expensive. I would not be surprised if full purchased BiS exceeds 100,000,000. Most players can't afford that and so many will buy from the CM and flip for credits, which is likely what Bioware intends with this change.

 

The crafter in me loves it. My daily income will probably jump from single digit millions per day to double digits.

 

Crafter greed aside, it's a bad system and will favor players who either have a lot of credits to burn or who are willing to pay real money to achieve full BiS.

 

I agree. Not to mention you will have PVE'ers going in and slaughtering PVP'ers in their own territory, while the PVP'ers just get more and more broke!.... This is not going to go well.

I've always respected your opinions, and very rarely disagreed with them. And I feel like PvP (and APAC players too for that matter) needs an advocate like you with a voice and personality as strong as yours, but then you go and flush it all down the drain with a post as disrespectful as this one.

 

And the irony of your post is that mhobin stepped into General Discussion and discovered people surprisingly had a different opinion. It's what happens when you step out of your bubble. He should replace the word logic with the words complete agreement. And then you go and take it to another level entirely in agreement. It's like, geez, tell us how you really feel. I'm sorry not sorry that the world is not a feedback loop.

 

Actually, there are a few people in the gen section that do exactly as I described and I think you know who they are (not you).

Sometimes they get to me and I have an outburst like I did in the post you quoted.

I try really hard to keep it in check and try to leave emotion at the door, but that was a bad day and I was over the trolling..

I get sick of having to defend the pvp community over and over against those guys who snipe at us every chance they get.

As far as they are concern, pvpers are the cause of the demise of the game. If you need me to, I can provide multiple quotes from recent posts some of them have made saying as much.

They deride pvpers at every chance they get and feel like they own the general section of the forums. If I even bring up pvp it gets twisted into a reason to bash pvpers.

My post may not have been very diplomatic or nice, but it is truthful where some of those people are concerned.

I’m sorry if it offended you, it was not describing you or directed at you and I can’t even edit now because it’s been removed.

Edited September 13, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

If someone walks into a crowded theater, and yells "FIRE!" and a bunch of people get hurt as a result, is it the theater patron's fault or is it the guy who caused the panic in the first place?

 

Cause that's the mmo equivalent of what Keith and Eric did, basically.

 

It's irresponsible to just casually announce a major change like the craft only tier 5 without providing specific details. It's just setting up what is left of the community to attack each other based on arguments that may or may not have any merit. We can't even begin to understand the situation or provide feedback. They've been around the block, and they knew this controversy was going to pan out this way.

 

That’s what Bioware does, they throw a match into a building full of fuel and watch it burn till they come riding in 6 months later to put it out.

I think they like different parts of the community at each other’s throats because it takes the attention off them and they know the white knights will step into confuse it even more,

If we are all sniping at each other, then we aren’t a united player base and Bioware can get away with doing what ever they want. Theyve been doing it for years and years and people still dont wake up to it.

Divide and conquer and then they only have one portion of the player base angry at them at a time and the other players can white knight for them,

It really is a smart strategy if you can’t deliver what’s expected by the players, but it doesn’t instill real loyalty towards them or create community spirit. All it does is keep the wolves at the gate and breed toxicity in the community.

Actually, there are a few people in the gen section that do exactly as I described and I think you know who they are. Sometimes they get to me and I have an outburst like I did in the post you quoted.

I try really hard to keep it in check and try to leave emotion at the door, but that was a bad day and I was over the trolling..

I get sick of having to defend the pvp community over and over against those guys who snipe at us every chance they get.

As far as they are concern, pvpers are the cause of the demise of the game. If you need me to, I can provide multiple quotes from recent posts some of them have made saying as much.

They deride pvpers at every chance they get and feel like they own the general section of the forums. If I even bring up pvp it gets twisted into a reason to bash pvpers.

My post may not have been very diplomatic or nice, but it is truthful where some of those people are concerned.

 

No need. I'm pretty sure I know of whom you're talking about. I've made a few posts to counter the anti-PvP crowd myself on occasion. The "you're PvP ruined my PvE" claims, scratch that, rants are so baseless and unfounded it just speaks to their negative bias. And even though I don't PvP nearly as much as I used to it still bothers me when they try to spread that misinformation. I think it was just the wide brush you painted with in that post that struck me. We all have our days. I know I do too. Heck, if it wasn't for giorgio calling me out in a thread I wasn't even participating in I wouldn't have even know about it. I haven't posted in here in about 4 years. It's not very active. So no harm, no foul.

That’s what Bioware does, they throw a match into a building full of fuel and watch it burn till they come riding in 6 months later to put it out.

 

It's a cheesy (underhanded?) way of collecting feedback before implementing something. I guess they think they're saving time but it's amateurish to say the least.

It's a cheesy (underhanded?) way of collecting feedback before implementing something. I guess they think they're saving time but it's amateurish to say the least.

 

It’s good way to drive players from the game too.

Mid is all that matters.

Mid is certainly easier to hold

This.

 

If they really want to maintain some gear progression for PVP, an alternative to bolstering to or above the max rating would be an additional stat cap similar to how level sync works. Sync everyone down to 246 rating, so there still is some room for pvp gear progression. A rating of 248+ will then only be relevant for raids.

 

^^^ 1000% agreed, I thought of this too. They can start out scaling and then tweak the scaling incrementally as average gear rating of the player base catches up. This still give players a reason to grind without the gross imbalances seen after 5.0 was released.

 

 

It’s a no win situation. The best solution for pvpers is for seperate gear or to raise Bolster above the tier 5 so that gear doesn’t matter.

 

Also NEVER EVER bring back separate pvp gear or expertise. Many play both pvp and pve.

 

I DO NOT WANT TO

1) Augment another gear set or potentially two sets on classes i respec from heals/tank to dps.

Augments are too expensive.

2) Worry about whether I have the right set of gear on the right alt for both pve respecing and further worry about pvp.

3) Have to carry another set or two sets that is taking up space in my inventory.

 

People advocating separate expertise or a return to pvp gear this fall into 2 categories.

 

The first are devs or dev family members pretending to be players so as to make it appear as if actual players want this, so they can make us grind more.

 

The second are people who are confused and think that the 5.0 merging of pve and pvp gear together is the reason you are having to grind as pvp player.....that is WRONG.

It is because they zeroed out your warzone comms and give you a pathetic pittence of credits for them, so you would have grind from scratch. The proper solution would have been to you a decent quantity of CXP packs for your WZ comms (and data crystals) so that your play before 5.0 actually mattered and helped prepare you for the level cap increase.

Edited September 22, 2018 by CyorReco

^^^ 1000% agreed, I thought of this too. They can start out scaling and then tweak the scaling incrementally as average gear rating of the player base catches up. This still give players a reason to grind without the gross imbalances seen after 5.0 was released.

 

Also NEVER EVER bring back separate pvp gear or expertise. Many play both pvp and pve.

 

I DO NOT WANT TO

1) Augment another gear set or potentially two sets on classes i respec from heals/tank to dps.

Augments are too expensive.

2) Worry about whether I have the right set of gear on the right alt for both pve respecing and further worry about pvp.

3) Have to carry another set or two sets that is taking up space in my inventory.

 

People advocating separate expertise or a return to pvp gear this fall into 2 categories.

 

The first are devs or dev family members pretending to be players so as to make it appear as if actual players want this, so they can make us grind more.

 

The second are people who are confused and think that the 5.0 merging of pve and pvp gear together is the reason you are having to grind as pvp player.....that is WRONG.

It is because they zeroed out your warzone comms and give you a pathetic pittence of credits for them, so you would have grind from scratch. The proper solution would have been to you a decent quantity of CXP packs for your WZ comms (and data crystals) so that your play before 5.0 actually mattered and helped prepare you for the level cap increase.

 

If gear was as easy to get as it was in pvp before 5.0, then having two sets isnt a big deal. But if you have a massive and time consuming gear grind like we have now, then yes, I agree, having two sets is a terrible idea, I dont think anyone wants that situation.

 

If they were to introduce a system like we had before with no to little gear grind and low credit costs to gear up, then it makes perfect sense to have two sets of gear. One that is specific to pvp and one for pve.

It would also allow them to tweak things for pvpers or pvers and it not affect the other group.

If you have a specific pvp stats like expertise that outshines the standard pve gear ina way that running pve gear is detrimental, then it allows the Devs to tweak classes based on gear and not content or only on class.

As an example : Skank tanks are an issue, so instead of nerfing the classes dps, you nerf the gear in some way. Or you nerf the class dps, but add a dps buff for the pve gear.

As long as there is a distinct difference between the two and people know that running high end pve is detrimental in pvp gear and visversa, then people can’t game the system.

 

But, a lot of it comes down to Bioware implementing it properly. The gear for pvp needs to be obtainable quickly and easily or it won’t work.

Which is where the system will break down because Bioware don’t want us to gear quickly. They mistakenly think pvpers will play longer if they have a long and tedious gear grind, when nothing could be further from the truth,

The majority of pvpers want to have fun fighting other people. Having a level playing field is more important for most than having gear god advantaged players.

And that is what Bioware fail to understand. Pvpers left the game because of the change to the gearing system. I’d say a large percentage of those that stayed, actually still hate the gearing compared to the old gear system, I would even go as far as saying those that are still playing the game are playing less than they use to. Not just because of the gear, but because Bioware don’t understand pvpers and constantly make bad decisions around pvp that affect people’s enjoyment of it.

 

From my perspective, this semi announced gearing system that will be based on crafting from MM operations is even worse than the current system, which is already terrible.

If they move ahead with it and dont take pvpers or the feed back we are giving them into consideration, it will cause another mass exodus of players,

 

The best solutions I’ve seen are :

1. Bolster all gear in pvp to max level.

2. Introduce specific pvp gear.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Totemdancer

If gear was as easy to get as it was in pvp before 5.0, then having two sets isnt a big deal. But if you have a massive and time consuming gear grind like we have now, then yes, I agree, having two sets is a terrible idea, I dont think anyone wants that situation.

 

I have respectfully disagree. If you're person that plays one or two classes with few alts, maybe it wouldn't be a big deal for you.

 

If play you multiple classes and respec, OR have multiple alts, OR even want have more than one gear build for the same spec/class. (E.g. 1 set high endurance & 1 set high mitigation for tanking), then you're already having to juggle multiple sets of gear. Adding pvp gear makes just it more of an arduous task. because you have remember which character has which set(s) and augment all that gear, which was not cheap even when pvp gear was around. Waste time looking for it or worry about losing it because you might sell it since you're constantly moving it in and out of inventory and across alts.

 

Even worse then that is you're discouraging a certain segment of people from pvping. I can't count the number people that said in guild/gen chat they don't or won't pvp because they don't have the right gear to do so. Nor are they inclined to get it no matter how easy you think it should be to get it. Bringing back pvp gear will decrease the frequency of WZ pops, that reason alone makes it a horrific idea.

 

Which brings to my original point, why should pvers have to grind for high end top gear, but pvpers be exempt.

You can still pvp without the top gear you just won't be as good as someone with the BiS gear(assuming skill level is equal), which is the same paradigm that exists for pvers running mm or Nim ops.

 

Re-introduce separate pvp gear and people will sub for a short time just to get the new top gear and then unsub and then just queue with one of their pvp buddies/guildmates for wzs. I know people who used to do this. Let'em grind like everyone else for a while and stay subbed if they feel they must have BiS gear for pvp.

It would also allow them to tweak things for pvpers or pvers and it not affect the other group. If you have a specific pvp stats like expertise that outshines the standard pve gear ina way that running pve gear is detrimental, then it allows the Devs to tweak classes based on gear and not content or only on class.

As an example : Skank tanks are an issue, so instead of nerfing the classes dps, you nerf the gear in some way. Or you nerf the class dps, but add a dps buff for the pve gear.

As long as there is a distinct difference between the two and people know that running high end pve is detrimental in pvp gear and visversa, then people can’t game the system.

.

 

Mechanisms for tweaking can be accomplished without separate pvp gear;

 

1. thru the use of bolster in pvp to bring people's output up a bit which was already in game after 5.0.

2. And level scaling which exist in pve to limit or cap output. Both these can be taylored specifically for warzone instances.

3. There's also passives you get with utility points that are already more or less useful in pve vs pvp. Those more useful in pvp can be adjusted up or down, without much impact on pve.

 

From my perspective, this semi announced gearing system that will be based on crafting from MM operations is even worse than the current system, which is already terrible.

If they move ahead with it and dont take pvpers or the feed back we are giving them into consideration, it will cause another mass exodus of players,

 

The best solutions I’ve seen are :

1. Bolster all gear in pvp to max level.

2. Introduce specific pvp gear.

 

Then the correct thing to advocate is a pathway to get mats from pvping. No need for pvp gear. What should happen is that those mats can be acquired by spending some number of unassembled components (which are the current de facto wz comms). This would make our play between gear upgrade patches actually useful as it was before.

 

Making things harder for people like me that like to both pve and pvp, simply so it's easier for people like you is not a good solution.

I don't see the purpose of another gear tier. A new level cap coming? New Operation or flashpoints that require it? NO. I have better things to do than to waste my time grinding for better gear, just to get better gear. I think im about done. Logged in for the 1st time in a while, and I was the only one on in my guild, which was pretty active for a long time. I checked last log in for guild members, and even the people who lived in the game have disappeared. I hate to say it, but I think the end is coming.

I have respectfully disagree. If you're person that plays one or two classes with few alts, maybe it wouldn't be a big deal for you.

 

If play you multiple classes and respec, OR have multiple alts, OR even want have more than one gear build for the same spec/class. (E.g. 1 set high endurance & 1 set high mitigation for tanking), then you're already having to juggle multiple sets of gear. Adding pvp gear makes just it more of an arduous task. because you have remember which character has which set(s) and augment all that gear, which was not cheap even when pvp gear was around. Waste time looking for it or worry about losing it because you might sell it since you're constantly moving it in and out of inventory and across alts.

 

Even worse then that is you're discouraging a certain segment of people from pvping. I can't count the number people that said in guild/gen chat they don't or won't pvp because they don't have the right gear to do so. Nor are they inclined to get it no matter how easy you think it should be to get it. Bringing back pvp gear will decrease the frequency of WZ pops, that reason alone makes it a horrific idea.

 

Which brings to my original point, why should pvers have to grind for high end top gear, but pvpers be exempt.

You can still pvp without the top gear you just won't be as good as someone with the BiS gear(assuming skill level is equal), which is the same paradigm that exists for pvers running mm or Nim ops.

 

Re-introduce separate pvp gear and people will sub for a short time just to get the new top gear and then unsub and then just queue with one of their pvp buddies/guildmates for wzs. I know people who used to do this. Let'em grind like everyone else for a while and stay subbed if they feel they must have BiS gear for pvp.

 

If it were to only take you two weeks to get pvp gear, how is that a problem? That’s all it use to take in the past and that’s what I’m suggesting.

I also have over 20 characters that I play and since 5.0 was released I have only been able to gear 2 or them to CXP 300 and none of them have all 248 items, let alone 236 Augments.

I would much rather spend 2 weeks to get pvp gear and be able to play all of my Alts, then spend 18 months grinding and still have no Alts fully geared.

If you also play pve, then it doesn’t affect your pve gearing. Because 2 weeks of casual pvp to get that gear is a small amount of time compared to the current system or proposed system that will gate mats and schematics behind MM operations.

I can’t see any pvpers quoting if they were to implement the old pvp system again. I also wouldn’t be surprised if people came back to the game if they did that. IMHO, I can only see it increasing pvp pops, not decreasing it.

The best solution is to have a max bolstered gear and do away with needing gear in pvp, but if they won’t do that, the next best solution is to have seperate pvp gear again.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Totemdancer