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The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*


Burana

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Avoid spoilers if you didn't play these storylines. Either the story doesn't make any sense, or it is not finished, and we are yet to find out who the traitor really was (Valkorion lives and was behind it?). :ph_danger:

 

I played through the stories again, starting from Iokath, this is what happened.

 

 

 

Someone lured the Alliance, Republic and Empire at the same time on Iokath to reveal the superweapon and attempted to wipe them all out. Someone dressed as sith/jedi sabotaged the throne, your character nearly died. Noted, that Theron urges you to seat on the malfunctioning throne.

 

Later, in Crisis on Umbara it is revealed that the traitor is Theron Shan. He gives his explanation that he didn't like your rule bla bla. He seriously attempts to kill you (again). So, was it him too messing around with the superweapon on Iokath?

 

The things don't get better on Copero. Your character's boyfriend / closest advisor since Forged Alliances went nutso. Or the SWTOR writes went nutso. This "subversion of expectations" was so cheap and stupid that I thought I won't be coming back to play this game.

 

Then, on Nathema you find out that Theron was not a traitor, but he went deep undercover to protect you.

The bad guy is revealed to be some random dude from the Order of Zildrog who you see for the first time in your life. Was it him on Iokath? He doesn't have the brains to do what was done on Iokath.

 

The deep undercover nonsense doesn't explain why Theron seriously tried to kill your character starting from Iokath.

 

 

 

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The writing for this entire arc is just bad. I was hoping the traitor was the player under the influence of Vaylin or Valkorion and Theron was doing whatever he was doing out of sheer desperation.

 

Somehow Theron discovered Gemini 16 was watching the Alliance and the Zildrog guy was behind the uprisings across the galaxy.

 

Iokath, I'm assuming it was one of the Scions affiliated with the Order of Zildrog, though, if their objective was to kill the Outlander then surely it would have been easier to just slit the Commanders throat while we were distracted talking to Tyth.

 

I don't know what happened during 'Murder on the Umbaran Express' ... the Order of Zildrog wanted the crystals ... which wasn't brought up again ... the Alliance took some crystals ... and presumably lost them as we forgot about them too.

 

Chiss planet ... Theron found a map to a secret super weapon ... and gave it to the bad guys ... Thanks Theron.

 

Then we discover Theron and Lana have some super secret code they've been using since Rishi ... maybe start off with that next time? Then Lana brings us to Odessen to tell us we have to go to Nathema despite already knowing we need to go to Nathema.

 

Then Nathema? Darth Zash (Inquisitor) got outsmarted by Gemini 16 and Theron cost us a good portion of the Alliance and the Gravestone because he couldn't be bothered to tell us what was going on.

Edited by Paulsutherland
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The writing for this entire arc is just bad. I was hoping the traitor was the player under the influence of Vaylin or Valkorion and Theron was doing whatever he was doing out of sheer desperation.

 

Exactly! I thought it was Theron or Lana possessed by Valkorion, but your version is better. The player character mind-controlled by Valkorion or Vaylin without us knowing would have been awesome, and a better plot twist.

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My pet crackpot theory is that both Iokath and Traitor Arc are what's left of rumoured part 2 of KOTFE that allegedly got scrapped. It could have made sense if expanded a little -- maybe by showing what Theron had been up to via cutscenes, like we had with various focus shifts to Arcann and Vaylin in KOTET/FE -- a lot of events would look out of the blue at best and utterly nonsensical at worst if we weren't privy to motivations of the pair.

 

I cannot, however, come up with any excuse at all for the "Zildrog food" part. You know, when a number of vastly different people who should have IQ above room temperature just walk into the obvious trap for no good reason at all. The impenetrable idiocy of that event had probably killed more braincells of mine than all the booze I consumed throughout my life and whoever is responsible for that should try their hand in writing Cthulhu Mythos, since they clearly have the chops for the incomprehensible horror.

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Avoid spoilers if you didn't play these storylines. Either the story doesn't make any sense, or it is not finished, and we are yet to find out who the traitor really was (Valkorion lives and was behind it?). :ph_danger:

 

I played through the stories again, starting from Iokath, this is what happened.

 

 

 

Someone lured the Alliance, Republic and Empire at the same time on Iokath to reveal the superweapon and attempted to wipe them all out. Someone dressed as sith/jedi sabotaged the throne, your character nearly died. Noted, that Theron urges you to seat on the malfunctioning throne.

 

Later, in Crisis on Umbara it is revealed that the traitor is Theron Shan. He gives his explanation that he didn't like your rule bla bla. He seriously attempts to kill you (again). So, was it him too messing around with the superweapon on Iokath?

 

The things don't get better on Copero. Your character's boyfriend / closest advisor since Forged Alliances went nutso. Or the SWTOR writes went nutso. This "subversion of expectations" was so cheap and stupid that I thought I won't be coming back to play this game.

 

Then, on Nathema you find out that Theron was not a traitor, but he went deep undercover to protect you.

The bad guy is revealed to be some random dude from the Order of Zildrog who you see for the first time in your life. Was it him on Iokath? He doesn't have the brains to do what was done on Iokath.

 

The deep undercover nonsense doesn't explain why Theron seriously tried to kill your character starting from Iokath.

 

 

 

Theron engineered the whole traitor thing by himself, he knew there was a threat out there and by selling the alliance and the commander on a bogus traitor scenario, it would buy points with the order of Zildrog to infiltrate the group and run a number on them. Theron found out more information as he got closer to the group by proving himself to them by sabotaging the alliance and giving them what they needed, but still leaving enough of a clue to make sure the alliance found out what theron was up to but to also warn them that a conspiracy is in motion.

 

The Alliance was tipped when Theron let some of the transmission out on purpose, and the order was rumbled without realising it, with Theron leaving more clues, things came to a climax and Theron had little choice but to blow his own cover and reveal that he engineered it all in order to expose the order of zildrog.

 

How Theron knew about the Order of Zildrog's goals is something i would still like to know, or for that matter how he knew they even existed in the first place.

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My pet crackpot theory is that both Iokath and Traitor Arc are what's left of rumoured part 2 of KOTFE that allegedly got scrapped. It could have made sense if expanded a little -- maybe by showing what Theron had been up to via cutscenes, like we had with various focus shifts to Arcann and Vaylin in KOTET/FE -- a lot of events would look out of the blue at best and utterly nonsensical at worst if we weren't privy to motivations of the pair.

 

^this. I've been saying it before and I'm still convinced that this was all (in some way or another) part of the originally planned trilogy and I think it would have made sense in the Kot-context. But unless Charles will comment on it, we will simply never now. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.

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Theron engineered the whole traitor thing by himself, he knew there was a threat out there and by selling the alliance and the commander on a bogus traitor scenario, it would buy points with the order of Zildrog to infiltrate the group and run a number on them. Theron found out more information as he got closer to the group by proving himself to them by sabotaging the alliance and giving them what they needed, but still leaving enough of a clue to make sure the alliance found out what theron was up to but to also warn them that a conspiracy is in motion.

 

The Alliance was tipped when Theron let some of the transmission out on purpose, and the order was rumbled without realising it, with Theron leaving more clues, things came to a climax and Theron had little choice but to blow his own cover and reveal that he engineered it all in order to expose the order of zildrog.

 

How Theron knew about the Order of Zildrog's goals is something i would still like to know, or for that matter how he knew they even existed in the first place.

 

Well, he, Lana, and Senya left us about 500 times throughout everything post 4.0 to "talk to their contacts" and they never tell us who they are or what came of it--perhaps one of those times.

 

And Theron is still doing it before Ossus--talking to these contacts is more important than finally getting a mission easy enough to tag along with his LI on?

 

Perhaps we have yet another planet-devouring maguffin (sp?) to deal with that Theron has info on and won't tell us until it's wiped out Odessen, yet was probably easily preventable.

 

Ugh

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It would be really nice if Charles or someone would come in and take responsibility for how bad much of the story has been in particular this traitor arc.

 

Of the many issues, so many issues the first is the use of Gemmi 16 who some how is omniscient, we just beat a god and now we must face a droid with god like powers. Its only explained as 'I don't know how...' thats because it made no sense. At this point we can't rule out the writing team bring superman into the story to deal with something, 'I don't know how he made it into the Star Wars universe...' and leave that as the explanation.

 

But it gets worse, Theron finds the map for them and gives it to them. Why the Omniscient droid needed him to find it when she can see all made no sense, but take that part of the story. Why not give it to the Alliance so they can get their first. Instead give it to the bad guys, and I think it was at this point he broadcast on an open channel information about the badies, this the Omniscient droid can't detect. An Open channel picked up by a smuggler is super secret, but secret meeting in a cave in the wilderness it some how would have found out so he couldn't risk telling the player.

 

If things aren't bad enough, a single horizon guard, you know those people you and Valyin killed in droves manages to take it all down. Didn't do anything while Arcann was having his 5 years of murdering loyal knights for any reason, didn't do anything while Vaylin was murdering anyone that happened to be near her. But you get the fleet for 6 months and use it for good or whatever, don't murder anyone on Zakuul and you are the one he wants to take down. And low an behold he succeeds. A simple trip to Iokath, finding a Gemini droid and he has all the secrets to unlock a ship you have owned for a year. Though you too have been to Iokath and had Gemini prime. Of course because the player's IQ is one step up from a pot plant and does nothing except react to threats and that reaction is always the same, they take Lana and bludgeon there way through. Thank the fates the writers are blessed with an immortal unstoppable hero that can kill everything, would hate for the player to have to outsmart their enemies, cause the pot intellect would never manage that.

 

So we have played through this 'story' often multiple time to get to make some choices that probably don't matter. It would be nice for the writers to come in and acknowledge they too realize how bad it was so there is hope the future will be better. Not more of the same.

Edited by Costello
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Well, he, Lana, and Senya left us about 500 times throughout everything post 4.0 to "talk to their contacts" and they never tell us who they are or what came of it--perhaps one of those times.

 

And Theron is still doing it before Ossus--talking to these contacts is more important than finally getting a mission easy enough to tag along with his LI on?

 

Perhaps we have yet another planet-devouring maguffin (sp?) to deal with that Theron has info on and won't tell us until it's wiped out Odessen, yet was probably easily preventable.

 

Ugh

 

This is the thing, a conspiracy requires more than one person and if neither of them give themselves away, how would Theron or his contacts even known about the order? Something had to of happened that drew attention to the Order of Zildrog, something that left enough of a trail to lead back to the conspirators.

 

Theron obviously had to record these conversations and have the alliance commander watch them in order to expose the conspirators goals, otherwise there would of been no proof and these conspirators would of been free to keep things hidden until the right moment. The fact is that none of them gave themselves away directly and Theron had to manufactuer the proof accordingly. This still doesn't explain how he found the order in the first place however.

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I didn't make much noise about Traitor-arc when we were getting it, despite being a major Theron Shan-fan. But boy do I hate that storyline now. It doesn't matter if you let Theron live, he is as good as dead anyway. But we knew that would happen, so I just try to roll with the punches.

 

What irks me most in the Traitor- arc is that it is total, absolute nonsense. There are plotholes so big they form a black hole. Theron is written to be a total idiot. No, everyone in that story arc acts like a total idiot. I can't stand story depending on people being idiots. I had to stop watching Iron Fist because of that: Everyone was an idiot. Same thing here, and Theron gets the shortest stick.

 

This man who is shagging with my character finds out someone is listening everyone on the base. He can't tell about this to my character, because they are listened. DON'T THEY HAVE PEN AND PAPER IN STAR WARS? Not only that Theron Shan is unable to write or take my character for a walk outside of the base, later we suddenly find out that Lana and Theron had developed a secret code at Rishi (sic!), and Theron leaves a message for Lana using it on an abandoned listening post (sic!). So now we learn that Theron could've left a message about someone listening them or whatever. So which is it? He didn't have means to tell anyone or he did? Jesus stuff like that drives me crazy.

 

Now Theron has an implant so I suppose they had hacked in his implant too. First, he has control of it and I'm sure he can turn it off (don't know if it is mentioned in Annihilation). And still: PEN AND PAPER. His implant has a camera that can be turned off, that much I know for sure from Annihilation, so seeing something through it is not an excuse. He can shut it down. For sweet baby Jesus, take my character outside of the base and write with a stick into sand if paper and pen doesn't exist. I can't get past this. I'm not normally a nitpicker when it comes to stories, it spoils the fun out of them but this one really gets me.

 

So, the whole "Theron can't tell your character what he is doing and why" is the root of all the frustration for me. It is the basis of the story, and so the whole story is nonsense. It is nonsense he couldn't tell. He could have. No one can make me believe anything else.

 

And on top of that I lost my favorite character. Because of a worst story in the whole history of SWTOR. I'm not happy I tell you. They had to make Theron killable because that was what the peanut gallery wanted. He will never be relevant again. He had 30 seconds in 5.10 in a half-assed cutscene, and unfortunately I'm afraid that was the last we will see of him. My character might be married to him, but he might be a widow just as well. Some marriage that was. Of course they promised Theron won't disappear, but Bioware has a short memory. When they have to deal with limited resources, everything not absolutely necessary will be cut out. He will go the same way as Koth did.

 

I take major issues with this and I'm angry about it. Theron deserved better than to be turned into a moron and then allowed to be killed.

 

I left out the normal "everyone just knows everything"-plothole. I just don't have stamina to go there. I guess they are fortune tellers or something. Maybe see things from tarot-cards.

Edited by tahol
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What bothers me the most about the arc is it makes Theron seem stupid. In fact I have read enough about him to know he is absolutely not stupid.

 

He couldn't tell the Commander what was going on because Gemini 16 was listening and watching. OK, so turn the implant camera off for a few seconds and write it down on paper? Gemini can't see or hear a thing, then. Or why didn't Theron just use the code he and Lana developed on Rishi?

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And on top of that I lost my favorite character. Because of a worst story in the whole history of SWTOR. I'm not happy I tell you. They had to make Theron killable because that was what the peanut gallery wanted. He will never be relevant again. He had 30 seconds in 5.10 in a half-assed cutscene, and unfortunately I'm afraid that was the last we will see of him. My character might be married to him, but he might be a widow just as well. Some marriage that was. Of course they promised Theron won't disappear, but Bioware has a short memory. When they have to deal with limited resources, everything not absolutely necessary will be cut out. He will go the same way as Koth did.

 

This is the reason I get so driven up the wall by people continually demanding characters be removed, whether through kill options or exile options. Not everyone deserves to be killed but when enough people find BS reasons to hate a character and want them dead, the writers have to make them do something OOC or deliberately stupid because there isn't actually a good reason to do it otherwise.

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doesn't writing on the mirror with lipstick work for communicating secret messages?

 

You've got the wlole of the galaxy to go to so Theron can communicate with the commander. - But instead of telling them, he creates an elaborate scheme to pretend to defect to hint that its not really a defection..... It's all too contrived.

 

It's also enormously risky, since blowing up a train while you are still on it isn't the most sensible course of action. Messing with Iokath tech could end really badly, fleeing through the streets of Copero could be outdone by a lucky blaster bolt or ion cannon ( shoot down the getaway ship) or force-choke.

 

For me it all started to fall apart on Umbara. - Why Lana ( or a force using commander) couldn't force-choke Theron is a mystery. and if he'd planted explosives on the line, how did he know when the commander would catch up with him... a few seconds either way could entirely wreck the plan to only derail the train.

 

There are probably a few plot holes in most fiction, but this whole arc is holier than Swiss cheese.

 

Wasn't there a explanation thread by one of the writers after KOTET? - which effectively made it even harder to fathom than it actually was?

 

Thank god you can skip all of that and go directly to Ossus. - effectively hand-waving away about 6 years - and nobody ages a day!

Edited by Storm-Cutter
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In terms of Umbara, I always had the feeling that Theron deliberately shot her as soon as she realized what was going on because he knew she would have Force choked him before he had a chance to recite his speech.

 

There are so many plot holes in the traitor story. There's that secret code that only Lana and Theron know how to read, which could have gotten around Gemini 16, but for some reason Theron never uses it before Zildrog is about to blow up everything. There's Gemini 16 in general. And then there's the fact that as others mentioned, the order never would have had the map to Zildrog without Theron GIVING IT TO THEM.

 

I also want to know how all of those enemies of the PC were able to track down Vinn Atrius and join the order (the dialogue seems to suggest that they came to Atrius) and yet the Alliance never could find it. *facepalm*

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Another plot hole, or non-sensical moment during the arc.

 

After Theron is revealed on the train, my SW force chokes him and then stops and asked Theron for an explanation. OK, fair enough. But then after his monologue my SW says to him: you better run, Theron.

 

What the...

Why didn't my SW just finish him off? The writing is so stupid sometimes. They should have made the barrier for resistant.

Edited by Xenipher
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Another plot hole, or non-sensical moment during the arc.

 

After Theron is revealed on the train, my SW force chokes him and then stops and asked Theron for an explanation. OK, fair enough. But then after his monologue my SW says to him: you better run, Theron.

 

What the...

Why didn't my SW just finish him off? The writing is so stupid sometimes. They should have made the barrier for resistant.

 

This is true. In thinking about it there are a number of lost opportunities for Force users.

 

If you choose to kill Senya/Arcann, you can (as a Force user) take a really good shot at Arcann with the Force as he's getting on his shuttle on Voss. He's able to parry it because he's also a powerful Force user. And even without that, Lana and the Commander are both shown to be powerful Force users who are strong enough to move the Gravestone.

 

So why are they standing there saying "this isn't over, Theron!" when he's leaving on his shuttle instead of using the Force to grab him, on both Umbara and Copero?!

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In terms of Umbara, I always had the feeling that Theron deliberately shot her as soon as she realized what was going on because he knew she would have Force choked him before he had a chance to recite his speech.

 

There are so many plot holes in the traitor story. There's that secret code that only Lana and Theron know how to read, which could have gotten around Gemini 16, but for some reason Theron never uses it before Zildrog is about to blow up everything. There's Gemini 16 in general. And then there's the fact that as others mentioned, the order never would have had the map to Zildrog without Theron GIVING IT TO THEM.

 

I also want to know how all of those enemies of the PC were able to track down Vinn Atrius and join the order (the dialogue seems to suggest that they came to Atrius) and yet the Alliance never could find it. *facepalm*

 

All of this. It's one of those story lines where I just can't think about it too deeply, although the more times I play it, the more in my face the inconsistencies are, lol. My characters thus far always have always forgiven Theron (I'm a sucker like that) but maybe Bioware just wanted to give people all sorts of good reasons to kill him. :p

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He can't tell about this to my character, because they are listened.

 

If only there existed some interference-running technology that would temporary scramble potential listening channels...you know, like Minister of Intelligence used in the start of Imperial Agent's Chapter 3. :D

Edited by krakadyla
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All of this. It's one of those story lines where I just can't think about it too deeply, although the more times I play it, the more in my face the inconsistencies are, lol. My characters thus far always have always forgiven Theron (I'm a sucker like that) but maybe Bioware just wanted to give people all sorts of good reasons to kill him. :p

 

This. There is absolutely no reason to kill Theron on the end when everything is revealed except these unexplained inconsistent things. Even then it makes little sense. With same logic you should have kill option for Lana on the end of the kotfe 1-9 because even she had good intention and managed to save you from carbonite it did not go flawlessly and there was quite a lot of lateral damage. I do NOT want that option just saying it's not really any different situation (minus "traitoring" which was pretty obvious from the start that it is just ruse).

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Honnestly, the one thing that bothers me the most with this arc, is Theron's kill option, as it was so obvious from the start that he was just doing his job, that was completely unnecessary...

 

We can try to come up with some believable explanation to fill the plot holes, but that is something that has consequences on everybody, and particularly people who did not let him die or kicked him out and who are romancing him.

 

Coming back to it because it's trully irritating, but there was absolutely no reason for Theron not to be part of the first cutscene in JUS on my JK (on the contrary he had every reason to be there actually as my JK always sided with the Republic and is engaged to Theron) but he was not, just because there was a possibility for him not to be part of the Alliance anymore, which only weakened that part for me...

In the same vein, was meeting some contacts really more important than going to save an old friend with his lover ??? :rolleyes:

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If only there existed some interference-running technology that would temporary scramble potential listening channels...you know, like Minister of Intelligence used in the start of Imperial Agent's Chapter 3. :D

More people bring up different options Theron had, more upset I get. He got a lobotomy, that is the only explanation.

 

No, really Charles. What were you people thinking? Who hated Theron there? Lemme speak with them, I have few chosen words to share.

Edited by tahol
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His actions resulted in the loss of a good portion of my powerbase ... he can rot on Nathema.

 

The way i see it these damages were part of things he was trying to prevent to happen. If he would not have acted, all that would still have had happened and we would have lost everything. Now only part of it happened before we were able to stop it, thanks to him.

 

My point was that those "reasons" that were put in here and there that justifies the killing option make no sense story or character wise. If and when he was not traitor he would have not actively made those evil plans work faster but he would have slowed them down with smart saboteuring. He would have not risked commander in Umbara but would have trapped/stunned them and then escaped. He would have modified the map from Copero to make it harder to find Zildrog. And he would have sent those coded messages or found other way to communicate with the team while turtling the order on their mission. Things he is shown to do in whole arch make as much sense than him rigging PC's toiletseat with plastic foil, posting nude pictures off PC to Hutt holonet and then leaving the alliance with gravestone to work as puppy trainer in Nar Shaddaa.;) He messes things up but he is not stupid.

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His actions resulted in the loss of a good portion of my powerbase ... he can rot on Nathema.

And if he did nothing, you'd still have lost the EF and the Gravestone, but Odessen would've been destroyed and all the members of the Alliance, including yourself would probably have died there too, that would've been so much better i guess :rolleyes:

Edited by Goreshaga
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And if he did nothing, you'd still have lost the EE and the Gravestone, but Odessen would've been destroyed and all the members of the Alliance, including yourself would probably have died there too, that would've been so much better i guess :rolleyes:

 

Exactly what i was trying to say. And to also to point out, why kill the only person who actually noticed there was conspiracy against you? Next time you just get splatted, because there is no way Lana is gonna notice anything judging from how it's been this far. :p

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