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The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

tahol's Avatar


tahol
01.18.2019 , 12:20 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCasus View Post
The same people harping about wanting Ashara's head because.. reasons(?) are the same ones who cheered when Arcann became romanceable and when Quinn returned. It's hilarious. I've seen it all throughout the years but nothing tops the level of companion fanaticism that's been exhibited the past few years on this forum in particular. I'm a RP'er and I understand wanting the actual story o be satisfying enough to give a better basis for my own but some people are downright delusional.
I was happy about Arcann-romance, and still am. I never asked for it though. I adore Quinn. I dislike Ashara. Yet, I have never, ever wanted to be able to kill or exile any characters. I always exile Kaliyo, I think my main even killed her, but I didn't demand the option to be given to me. It was there so I used it because Kaliyo irks me that much, but if that option wouldn't have been there I just wouldn't use her.

I don't see myself as that much of a role player, but I think I must be one. Still, in my mind the GAME comes always first, not my immersion, not my personal needs. This is a game. More important, it is a MMO, which means it is constantly living and developing and changing. Every change affects everyone, there is no room for selfishness and egotism. I always put game mechanics and understanding game as a medium first, and I have very high tolerance for bad writing in games. I don't have to go through hoops to rationalise and find explanations for plot holes, I just accept them as they are because very, very few games have even decent writing behind them. The plot in general might be great, there might be really interesging ideas and potential in the story, but video game writing isn't that great.

But Nathema-story arc went too far, and reached even my limits of tolerance for carbage. On top of that, I lost my favorite character. I have done several playthroughs just for him. I could've leveled my characters without doing all the story for hundredth time, but nope, got to see Theron again.

If what you (whit "you" I mean generally, not you who I quoted) want takes something away from others, and you still do your damnest to push it through, you are a narcissist POS who doesn't see anything else than themselves. Other people don't matter to you. You want what you want, and actually, taking something away from others gives you satisfaction. This is pathological. It is also impossible to get through to these people, so don't bother. Only way to save your character is to make writers see the light, and I don't know if that is even possible. I definitely would want to sit face to face with them and ask "What were you thinking?" and "Where is your spine?"

I understand peoples need to fill plotholes and explain illogical and abnormal character behaviour with their imagination, I do. It can also be seen as just having a conversation with others. But the problem lies here: It allows writers to keep writing carbage. You people never ask writers heads on the spike. You never call them out. You insult the characters, you have ideological wars, you demand that this or that character has to be punished because they are "bad", or other character must get special attention because they are "good". Yet they can't be anything because they don't exist! Every one looks at a character and have their own interpretion of that character. Only writers have the original knowledge of what they wanted to achieve when writing something. When people start to act like characters were real people with their own agenda and thoughts, they stop remembering that behind those characters and story are people who made them, and they are only ones who are accountable for characters actions and what happens in the story.

Like others before me have sayed, it is irresponsible to bring up new romances and LI's and abandon the old ones. Again, this is on the writers. Of course I romanced Arcann when I could, I like complicated characters and from enemies to lovers stories. But Koth has disappeared. Also I have no idea how many other characters need more attention because I haven't romanced them, but it must be plenty. Bioware has a bad habbit now abandoning things when bringing something new on table. I'm sure Arcann-romance won't get more content btw.

Storm-Cutter's Avatar


Storm-Cutter
01.18.2019 , 12:49 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Eanelinea View Post
I call all players who want any companion to die, for any dumb reason, a troll. And not a very intelligent troll. Why? Because once Bioware caves into their desires, they then **** up the game for the rest of us. I want Quinn alive and well and still my husband. I want there to be more face time with Theron. But because they are now killable for really dumb *********** reasons, we may or may not get them in anything but letters or small bits here and there. I mean, where the hell is Koth? All of my Koth are still alive, but I haven't seen him since early-mid KOTET. I'm tired of players wanting companions dead. Not only that, but they gave us people to romance that I never wanted to. WHY AM I ABLE TO ROMANCE KHEM-VAL??? That is *********** gross. And Jaesa knows I married Quinn, why the hell is she suddenly hitting on me?
It is as much BioWare's fault for 2 reasons: They kept telling us that choices mattered - so people surviving or dying was a choice - sometimes a brutal choice - such as Vette or Torian. - Or the prisoners we rescued.

The second is making a lot more companions romance-able. - That's on the players. I get that the stock choices are not to everyone's taste - and in heroic fiction the hero almost always gets the girl ( or boy or alien)

But going back to the continuing story, it would make more sense to have a new character be the spy/defectot/undercover agent. IT would make more sense for them to have sent minions to crash the train/ steal the plans and run around on Copero &c. Having it all depend on one person that a lot of people (myself included) liked as a character was a really dumb move.

Siome people ( and/or characters) will forgive Theron, others won't stand a traitor ( even if it wasn't actually real) to live - Which makes it hard to write for such differing outcomes and ongoing story.

I expect the community has hundreds of better stories to tell, chapter at a time, but knowing BioWare writing, they'll ignore everything.....Which is a shame, since they've really painted themselves into a corner so many times that it's starting to become comical as they twist and turn with every possible option, only to try to resolve everything at the same point for everyone.

-Would love some input from the writers at this point....
-Storm Cutter.
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Costello's Avatar


Costello
01.18.2019 , 02:42 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Eanelinea View Post

I call all players who want any companion to die, for any dumb reason, a troll. And not a very intelligent troll. Why? Because once Bioware caves into their desires, they then **** up the game for the rest of us. I want Quinn alive and well and still my husband. I want there to be more face time with Theron. But because they are now killable for really dumb *********** reasons, we may or may not get them in anything but letters or small bits here and there. I mean, where the hell is Koth? All of my Koth are still alive, but I haven't seen him since early-mid KOTET. I'm tired of players wanting companions dead. Not only that, but they gave us people to romance that I never wanted to. WHY AM I ABLE TO ROMANCE KHEM-VAL??? That is *********** gross. And Jaesa knows I married Quinn, why the hell is she suddenly hitting on me?
Its not just kill options its any 'optional' companion.

Any companion other than those who are forced on you, is never seen again or even mentioned. When you get the chance to try and recruit Darth Malora you completely forget that you have recruited Dr Lokin a geneticist whom she might be interested in working alongside and instead talk about the Hutt because he is forced on everyone and Lokin is an optional so never seen or mentioned again.

So it is not having the kill option that removes them from play it is them being removed or possibly removed from the alliance that removes them from play. So it is all the pro choice people that you are calling trolls. Anyone that says I don't think I should have a particular companion forced into my alliance after they x, y or most likely betrayed me is then causing them to be removed from the story.

How much time do you think Elara is going to get in the story moving forward after she made the choice not to join you because earlier you set off a bomb to cripple your enemy. Or Jaesa who has only returned to one class out of the eight, who can likewise be killed or refused to join.

So its not as some people are fond of saying Edgelords that have removed companions from the story it is the pro choice players that have removed them from the story. And that is not so much them doing it as the devs having so few resources after driving so many subscribers away that they can't afford to devote any time to possible companions when they have master modes and operation bosses to work on.

Iheaca's Avatar


Iheaca
01.18.2019 , 02:55 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
We are falling into the pattern of being angry that players wanted x character dead, when that is not the problem, the problem is BW's laziness in not continuing to write for characters that a percentage of players wanted dead. Being allowed to kill characters, even for stupid reasons like Quinn, is not a 'bad' choice, it's just bad when BW decides not to write for them because of that, and that's where the concern should be, not over a minority of players demanding something and getting it. It would be like getting mad at players who killed Ardun Kothe in Act 2 of the IA story, if that meant that he'd never come back and offer IAs who spared him a job. Whose fault would that be, again? The writers, obviously.
Yes to this!

I strongly disagree with the fact of wanting characters not to be killable. It makes sense that they are (and yes, I am team Arcann and dislike Ashara a lot... but I hate Quinn even more if this helps ). There can be many reasons for people to spare or like a companion and to want to exile or kill another one. This is part of the way each player sees their characters, depending on their past choices and so on. It makes sense for my character to spare Arcann and then slowly get an interest in him. It makes sense for her to be the kind to decide that Quinn will never be part of her alliance because of what he did in the past (and the fact that he would probably spy for Acina). And I do not care if others think differently, we all have our own story.

The issue is not that players want to be able to get rid of a character that does not correspond to their own story. This should definitely be possible. I find it worse to be stuck with characters that do not make any sense than to be able to kill them or simply tell them to go away. There should actually be other options than kill or let live. Theron could have been taken back from Nathema and put on the first cargo to Coruscant with the instruction to never ever come back to the Alliance anymore. Players should as well be able to decide that they do not leave him to die but instead finish him. I don't care how heartless this can appear, if that is what a player wants to do, it's not my business.

But that should not have an impact on what BW develops afterwards, because any character who can be dead for some can be alive and important for others. The issue here is probably a rational use of limited resources that I can fully understand as a professional. Why concentrate on characters that 10-20% of people still have (I do not say this is the case for Theron, I'd say that his chances to be alive for a player are much higher than that)? Making cutscenes, including the dialogues part is probably expensive. And when specific characters have to say specific things because of their very unique behaviour or position in the story, every single one must have their own, very specific, dialogue. Rationally, I understand that BW cannot do that. And as a player I am frustrated. And I clearly do not see any good solution to have something that pleases everyone that fits with a limited-resources situation.
The Leviathan - Nyx-Nocturna, Ihrae, Del'Ihrae, Shanti-Adamanta, Ainlanna, Ijadyia
From Ashes We Will Rise - fanfiction

tahol's Avatar


tahol
01.18.2019 , 04:28 AM | #75
After reading some posts, I say what I really think about what writes should do.

They should stop listening to players, and they should have never done it in the first place. I've heard often that listening to fans if Biowares strength. I say it is their weakness, and it has been with every game they have made after DAO. That is when they let people put their noses in what happens in the story, and I never liked the results.

Writers are responsible for the story, and it is not a democracy. They shouldn't act like it is.

Players don't know what they want (here I don't speak about game play mechanics, I speak about story content). They change their minds. They follow the hive mind. They are contrarians just to be ones. Today they want this, and tomorrow they want that. Every singe one of them want different things.

I can't phatom why writers let players to dictate what happens in the story. It is their job to write it. Only they know what direction the story is going to have in the future. I also can't phatom why players can't accept the story as the creators of the story make it, and keep demanding something different. This is a huge reason why we are having so damn bad writing now. When writers don't have spine to stay true to themselves and their story, they are constantly making decisions that will make their job even harder.

What makes sense to players doesn't matter. What they want to do with any given companion doesn't matter. Writers should stop trying to please the players. And this definitely includes all "choice matters" people. Choice is irrelevant. Every choice you make in your story is an illusion, if the story itself doesn't change fundamentally because of it. It doesn't matter if Vette or Torian dies. It just means there will never be a future where Vette or Torian will have any meaningful part in future story. I might like to exile Kaliyo, but I also recognise that this choice means that people who like her or romanced her will never experience a future where she has a bigger part in the story. Two years from now there might have been a good opportunity to include her in the main story again. Nope, because she isn't in everyones story anymore.

People who write for SWTOR are professional writers. They trained to be writers. They probably have a degree in it. They probably love writing and wanted to do it for living for that reason. When I blame them from this mess and swear at them for creating it in the first place, I still recognise that they are professional writers and I am not. I do respect them, a lot. Writing isn't the easiest job to have. You can't write without putting something of yourself into it. But yielding to fans demands of this and that you stop taking the responsibility of your writing. Eventually you paint yourself in the corner. Writing for an MMO is tricky because the story is constantly evolving. SWTOR in itself is tricky because it's story is complicated. Letting players dictate what will happen in it makes it just worse.

Or course, it is too late now to fix this. I just had to say this as I see it. They started to listen to players long ago and now we are in this mess. Every new part of the story will be more buggy nonsense than the last one. More companions will disappear, and more new ones will be pushed on us. Every time a new character is introduced, someone wants them as a companion. Writers listen to them, more buggy nonsense will follow. It is an endless spiral down.

krakadyla's Avatar


krakadyla
01.18.2019 , 06:37 AM | #76
Um. Why do you guys think they are dancing to the fanbase's tune in the first place?(Well, besides the obvious human tendency to believe one's self-importance into gigantic hot air balloon every time a chance presents itself. "Oooooh, the writers listen to our wishes, we're so like totally matter, we have da powar". Stop and think for a second, will us all? Everybody dunked on that Galactic Grind mechanics as soon as it happened, did it go away? Nope! Was it even the first thing audience hated? No! Did they ever change anything because of negative feedback? Nuh-uh! Should have if opinion of the fans is so important, yet it did not. So if gameplay designers do not listen to popular opinions, what makes you think writers do, eh? Deaths of this or that? Isn't it more plausible that the writers have the outline of the story, they know which character has a future and which has not and in case of the latter, then maybe write a death as a possible option because -- again, with fanfares! -- it will not matter in the long run and can be used to make some drama, and nothing makes some easy instant drama as a death. So no, guys. We do not matter much besides the obvious "how much money we're ready to spend on it" reason.

Now, before we derail this thread into yet another never ending whine of self-pity and "NO U!" where each iteration is more boring and repetitive than previous one, how about we make fun of that nonsensical traitor arc like the tosser deserves? Like, we can:

Invent jokes ("So Master Sumalee, Darth Baras and Theron's boss walk into the bar on Nathema...")

Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people (like Vallllssss. My contribution: Theron plainly charmed the pants off him. Search your feelings, you know it's true )

Speculate on the haircut (Seriously. When trying to hide, you'd want to make yourself forgettable, which should be hard when people take a look at you and think "Here goes the guy who let his twelve year old kid do his hair")

Why did Forceys only choked Theron a little and then let go? Forgot to charge the battery before leaving, no sockets on the train and the choker died on them?

So much potential here, come on!

P.S.: Yesterday I auctioned Vinn Atrius holo on GTN for 5 credits, because dude's worthless garbage and so is his holo. Today I received the GTN mail with 25 creds attached. He's such a piece of trash that GTN pays you back five times just to get rid of him

Iheaca's Avatar


Iheaca
01.18.2019 , 07:15 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by tahol View Post
Spoiler
I am sorry but I disagree with this black & white way of seeing things.

Writers have to listen to the player base and potentially adapt to what they want. But not blindly. Their job is to create something consistent within the scope of what most people will be interested in. The job of all the people involved in the game is to build it so that it fits a target and deliver what their core audiance (or the one they want to have) want. It does not mean that they have to listen to all the nonesense, though. In an ideal world where there is no financial constraints, writers could do what they want and don't care if they have a public. In another one, they could even provide all possible ways to solve a situation because they then have the resources to provide a logical follow up to all stories that have become possible. The problem is that we are not in any of these ideal situations. Writers probably get guidelines, are pushed in a direction by marketeers, are potentially limited by game design, game mechanics, code... and first and foremost financial resources. What matters is what they choose in the scope of this situation and that is where things get complex because they have to keep a certain player base in order for the game to remain. If they lose too much, it's over. That often means that compromises have to be made, and compromises are never good.

And by deciding to create a MMO, they probably knew what they would be exposed to. The job of people at BW that are involved in the storyline development would be to know to what they should say yes and to what they should say no. It is impossible to please everyone, and for every single player complaining on a forum, there are probably at least 10 that are not and are fine with what they get. The job of these people is as well to rationalise all this and make the best choices they can. All responsibility cannot be put on the players.

I'm not working in this industry, but as a marketeer in another field of business, I get my share of dumb requests. Trust me, I've used the sentence "People want that? Oh yeah? Fine. How many of them really do?" a hell of a lot. Part of my job is to sort the requests I get, analyse them, agree with some and kill others, explaining why I do so and standing my ground until someone can convince me that I was wrong (or force me to do it anyway, ,lol).


Now, on the other hand, I really have a hard time understanding people being so virulent about choices made, or not made. I mean... this is a game. If we are unhappy about it, we stop paying and leave, see if the grass is greener somewhere else (which, we usually found out, is not the case).

I'd love to have much more options possible for every part of the storyline because it would make so much more sense. I know it is wishful thinking and deal with it. I still have fun and guess that I have reasonably levelled my skill of suspension of disbelief. How critical is this in the end? Thiis is not real life and we are not bound to the game and forced to pay and play it. Yes, some is frustrating, yes, it is unnerving to have a favourite character going in a direction we do not want it to, yes, it may kill our enjoyment... but it still only a game.

Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people (like Vallllssss. My contribution: Theron plainly charmed the pants off him. Search your feelings, you know it's true )
Oh yeah! I knew it!! His "He will prevail!" constant claim always sounded like he was declaring his inconditionnal love to Theron. And the tone he uses when he talks to him before ("Victory isn't my fate, Theron, it's yours!").
The Leviathan - Nyx-Nocturna, Ihrae, Del'Ihrae, Shanti-Adamanta, Ainlanna, Ijadyia
From Ashes We Will Rise - fanfiction

kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
01.18.2019 , 08:19 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by tahol View Post
What makes sense to players doesn't matter. What they want to do with any given companion doesn't matter. Writers should stop trying to please the players. And this definitely includes all "choice matters" people. Choice is irrelevant. Every choice you make in your story is an illusion, if the story itself doesn't change fundamentally because of it. It doesn't matter if Vette or Torian dies. It just means there will never be a future where Vette or Torian will have any meaningful part in future story.
This guy gets it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Mournblood View Post
You are not some champion of logic, teaching the uninformed about the finer points of the fallacy of argumentation. Nor are you a Community Manager working for Bioware, though at least your prolific posting would be an improvement.

JattaGin's Avatar


JattaGin
01.18.2019 , 08:45 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
Invent jokes ("So Master Sumalee, Darth Baras and Theron's boss walk into the bar on Nathema...")
I don't get it.

Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
P.S.: Yesterday I auctioned Vinn Atrius holo on GTN for 5 credits, because dude's worthless garbage and so is his holo. Today I received the GTN mail with 25 creds attached. He's such a piece of trash that GTN pays you back five times just to get rid of him
That sounds like an exploit. You'd need some patience, but still...
Bioware offers a friend referal system which gives referred players a couple of goodies (incl. 7 free days of sub and a neat free 10 x inventory slot for every character) and referring players some little shinies and cartel coins.
I would be happy if you choose my referral link to grab your free goodies.

Noerra's Avatar


Noerra
01.18.2019 , 09:15 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
Now, before we derail this thread into yet another never ending whine of self-pity and "NO U!" where each iteration is more boring and repetitive than previous one, how about we make fun of that nonsensical traitor arc like the tosser deserves? Like, we can:

Invent jokes ("So Master Sumalee, Darth Baras and Theron's boss walk into the bar on Nathema...")

Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people (like Vallllssss. My contribution: Theron plainly charmed the pants off him. Search your feelings, you know it's true )

Speculate on the haircut (Seriously. When trying to hide, you'd want to make yourself forgettable, which should be hard when people take a look at you and think "Here goes the guy who let his twelve year old kid do his hair")

Why did Forceys only choked Theron a little and then let go? Forgot to charge the battery before leaving, no sockets on the train and the choker died on them?

So much potential here, come on!

P.S.: Yesterday I auctioned Vinn Atrius holo on GTN for 5 credits, because dude's worthless garbage and so is his holo. Today I received the GTN mail with 25 creds attached. He's such a piece of trash that GTN pays you back five times just to get rid of him
I'm in! Apologies already now on really bad jokes, english is not my first language.

Invent jokes:
Why was Umbara flashpoint the way it was? Because Charles asked Keith what kind of flashpoint he wants and Keith told him "Do what you wish as long as you don't lose the train of thought"

Commander after Umbara flashpoint: "Theron dumped me. It was such a train wreck!"

Speculate on the haircut - Haircut was the real reason Theron didn't contact us sooner. It was too late when Theron realized this haircut was not cool but ridiculous. Originally he was gonna reveal things to commander right after Umbara show but haircut was the reason he avoided any contact with her. On Umbara he is trying to escape so no one he knows would see it. He was hoping it would grow back on before he would have to include alliance to the conspiracy but Nathema happened too early. Killing option was there just because of the haircut, because that, if anything, was a warcrime on itself.

Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people:
Real reason for Aristocra Saganu's eagerness to let alliance on Copero was that he wanted to clean that place from inhabitants so he could build there a golf course and a holiday club and locals were turtling his efforts with complaints.
Real reason behind Vall's dude blocked us from reaching the Theron was because he was the one who did his haircut on first place and didn't want bad publicity.