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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


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erm, no, in 16 bring 2 operative healers and you have more resses than in 8, for sure. Ever heard of stealth ress? They even reduced the cooldown of "vanish"

 

So your whole argument is that Operatives can stealth rez? You can do that in 8man you know.

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I see not a single guild has fully completed both 8m and 16m NiM EC. A lot of the discussions have been based on assumptions, second hand info, past encounters, partial operations. Of course it leads to comments and opinions based on partial facts and individual experiences. And therefore the divided opinions. When a guild eventually clears both 8m and 16m, I am sure more respects will be given to their feedback.

 

No disrespect to 16m groups, but I can understand why some 8m players don't accept the current feedbacks that 16m contents are harder at this stage. The following may explain why.

 

Before our guild stepped into 16m TfB HM, I have been reading on the forum how the 4th and 5th bosses are miles more difficult than 8m (those posts should still be around somewhere on the forum). We eventually found out that 1st, 3rd and 4th bosses in 16m to be easier. We did switch to 5 heals for a smooth run with 2nd boss. And we found the final boss to be slightly harder. We had a few wipes while the tanks working on holding the aggro and we experimenting the number of dps on anomalies. Saw one enrage before clearing it.

 

Another reason might be that progression is harder on everyone's first clear. 8m group clear 8m content first and then found 16m easy subsequently. 16m group clear 16m content first and then found 8m easy subsequently.

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I see not a single guild has fully completed both 8m and 16m NiM EC. A lot of the discussions have been based on assumptions, second hand info, past encounters, partial operations. Of course it leads to comments and opinions based on partial facts and individual experiences. And therefore the divided opinions. When a guild eventually clears both 8m and 16m, I am sure more respects will be given to their feedback.

 

No disrespect to 16m groups, but I can understand why some 8m players don't accept the current feedbacks that 16m contents are harder at this stage. The following may explain why.

 

Before our guild stepped into 16m TfB HM, I have been reading on the forum how the 4th and 5th bosses are miles more difficult than 8m (those posts should still be around somewhere on the forum). We eventually found out that 1st, 3rd and 4th bosses in 16m to be easier. We did switch to 5 heals for a smooth run with 2nd boss. And we found the final boss to be slightly harder. We had a few wipes while the tanks working on holding the aggro and we experimenting the number of dps on anomalies. Saw one enrage before clearing it.

 

Another reason might be that progression is harder on everyone's first clear. 8m group clear 8m content first and then found 16m easy subsequently. 16m group clear 16m content first and then found 8m easy subsequently.

 

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. 16m is much harder than 8m.

 

and guess what, it's the first week of raiding, so no guild can clear both 8m and 16m.

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You have no idea what you are talking about. 16m is much harder than 8m.

 

and guess what, it's the first week of raiding, so no guild can clear both 8m and 16m.

 

Every 16 man guild said the same for TFB HM and EC HM, and clearly that was not the case. For now, I'll stay skeptical, thank you very much.

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Here's what I've noticed:

 

Tier 1:

SM EV/KP - were both faceroll so no noticable difference

HM EV/KP - the 8 man fabricator fight was slightly tougher

NiM EV/KP - 16 KP was harder on every fight except Fabriator, so 4/5. 16 Ancient Puzzle and Infernal Council were slightly harder, but not by that much. 16 Soa was decently harder but only because of lightning balls everywhere.

 

Tier 2:

SM EC - 16 man was tougher but post-nerf both are faceroll

SM TfB - 16 man

HM EC - similar but Z&T and F&S were slightly tougher on 16 man

HM TfB - haven't managed to clear 16 man TfB (due to lack of guild interest) but HM Writhing Horror was DEFINTELY easier on 16 man whereas 16 man Dread Guard was harder

 

Simply put, while I haven't done 16 man NiM EC (only 1/4 8 man atm) if what people are saying is true, then something is very very wrong here. While some fights have been obviously harder on 16 man - Soa, Zorn&Torn, Firebrand and Storm Caller, Dread Guard the fact remained that 8 man was comparable.

 

The two versions being leagues apart is not a good change, it is a very bad change. Even if 16 man was tougher previously, it was by a small enough amount that it didn't matter too much. Guilds that facerolled 8 man HM EC generally facerolled 16 man EC even if it took them a bit longer to farm it. This doesn't sound like that. This sounds like BW UNDERTUNED 8 MAN NiM EC.

Edited by AshlaBoga
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erm, no, in 16 bring 2 operative healers and you have more resses than in 8, for sure. Ever heard of stealth ress? They even reduced the cooldown of "vanish"

 

If anyone dies at any point on 16m NiM tanks, it's already a wipe. Your ignorance to this is the prime reason your input can't be taken seriously in this thread because you clearly haven't done it.

 

There are super rare exceptions to deaths being a wipe, like a battle res at the exact right point, but even then the DPS loss is apparent and is a tough hurdle to overcome for enrage timer. We'll be posting a video of our tanks kill soon just to show you how close that enrage timer is (hint: we won with roughly 1 second to spare... 16 members with near BiS gear and great parses).

 

There is 0 potential to stealth res in this fight. All irrelevant since we only brought 1 stealth class anyway (1 healing op).

Edited by DarkhorseForLife
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I see not a single guild has fully completed both 8m and 16m NiM EC. A lot of the discussions have been based on assumptions, second hand info, past encounters, partial operations. Of course it leads to comments and opinions based on partial facts and individual experiences. And therefore the divided opinions. When a guild eventually clears both 8m and 16m, I am sure more respects will be given to their feedback.

 

No disrespect to 16m groups, but I can understand why some 8m players don't accept the current feedbacks that 16m contents are harder at this stage. The following may explain why.

 

Before our guild stepped into 16m TfB HM, I have been reading on the forum how the 4th and 5th bosses are miles more difficult than 8m (those posts should still be around somewhere on the forum). We eventually found out that 1st, 3rd and 4th bosses in 16m to be easier. We did switch to 5 heals for a smooth run with 2nd boss. And we found the final boss to be slightly harder. We had a few wipes while the tanks working on holding the aggro and we experimenting the number of dps on anomalies. Saw one enrage before clearing it.

 

Another reason might be that progression is harder on everyone's first clear. 8m group clear 8m content first and then found 16m easy subsequently. 16m group clear 16m content first and then found 8m easy subsequently.

 

Our guild has done both 8m and 16m NiM EC (we have 4 distinct raid groups, 3 of which are 8m teams... roughly 50 active progression raiders give or take). Everyone agrees, the difficulty in 8m is a joke and not even comparable to 16m on the first two bosses. Not enough info to comment on Kephess yet. Vorgath is of course easy on both.

 

Any 8m raider who still clings to their skepticism simply hasn't experienced 16m tanks yet.

Edited by DarkhorseForLife
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We aren't whining, MoXboss isn't whining, right now we're just sharing desperation about he difficulty.

Now, the thing that are annoying both him and myself is that because we 16 man guilds have had a depressingly slower progression than the 8 man guilds, we have been being looked down upon because the community consensus is that "8 man is more difficult than 16 man" without many of the people claiming this having run 16 man content.

 

I want 2 things: the thought that our guilds are bad because we're going slower in 16 man.

and I want people to be encouraged to run 16 man content because I WANT COMPETITION.

Messores was founded to be a competitive PvE guild, and we're losing competition because most of the 16 man guilds have quit.

 

I don't want bragging rights over 8 man guilds, I don't want elitism either way, but I certainly don't want being called out on the fleet as a "****** PvE guild" because we're only 1/4 NiM EC.

 

I think the problem with this entire game is the fact that players are too competitive on either side of the spectrum, from 8-man to 16-man. It doesn't make any guild better than anyone else just because they clear content in a certain way or not. Every single guild that is currently in this instance (and more than likely posting on this thread) is a guild that cares about downing some of the most challenging PVE content the game has to offer. I agree with saying that 16-man is more challenging, as after downing the content in that raid experience it makes 8-man feel less satisfying (I know TFB was quite a joke to heal on 8-man after doing 16-man). However, that is not to say 8-man guilds should not feel a sense of accomplishment. It is true that 16-man guilds bash the 8-mans all the time by saying they are useless until they run 16-man, and I have seen the other side as well as Dragonbgone says. Heck, I have seen it on our server alone. But does that mean that guild is a useless one? Nah, I don't believe that; I think everyone should be proud of the accomplishments they do, regardless what challenge setting they look for.

 

Because a guild "downs" an instance first does not make that guild better than anyone else in this game, and if you do believe that I apologize. Rankings really aren't relevant based on time, in fact really not at all from how I view this game. I mean in all honestly as Chosen's member said in a previous post, it's hard to find members at certain raid times. Our raid schedule as with every other guild is different. I mean if you REALLY care about downing something and being the best, everyone would have been in the instance from the time the servers hit until they downed the entire instance, even if that meant when servers went down at 2:00am CST. They would have waited the 2 hours of downtime, and jumped right back into the instance at 4:00am CST until they downed it again, but nobody really does that. With the holiday week coming up, our guild only has 2 nights to raid this week as most of our members are leaving town. Does that mean that any other guild sucks because they didn't spend every waking moment downing the stuff?

 

What I care to see is guilds who have downed the content. Everyone has their own play style and I am sure that

it is nice to record a time of a kill, but be real, some people have more time to play this game then others; don't judge skill based on how fast it takes you to down something. With that being said, don't judge a guild's skill based on if they ran it in 8-man or 16-man; we all work hard to help others and down the content. What matters is seeing which guilds can be friendly to the community on the matter, help others, and still be an awesome guild. I mean raids become less important as time goes on. Nobody brags about EC HM anymore with the content being downed, as nobody really cares about that raid anymore. Eventually as this game progresses, nobody will care about TFB, and so on and so forth as more content is released. For that reason, just be happy you are even running this Operation on Nightmare!

 

I know plenty of guilds from the Pot5 server that are extremely cool, both Imperial and Republic! Most of the Imperial guilds such as MOX and Chosen (and previously CKN) downed stuff before Severity even downed the content as at the time of TFB we were the only 16-man running on the Republic side until Messores came into the 16-man group later on down the road. However, do I loathe over these guilds downing the content before me if they do or our guild because a "ranking" system that Darkae makes tells me that? No I don't as I am just happy they down it and we represent our server to the best of its ability. There are some skilled players in all of those guilds, just like I see in mine. Do I think these guilds are better than me because they down something earlier in a week than we may? I hope not as I believe we are all very capable guilds at downing content, it just shows that some of us have more time to raid during a week than others. I love talking to the players from the Pot5 16-man guilds, just like I love talking to players from the 8-man spectrum as well (in fact I know Nezra is one of the nicest Imperial players I know from that side :)). In all, I am proud of our guilds from any challenge content and I would hope players in other communities would not bash a guild just because they run something in 8-man, keeping in mind you're speaking to a 16-man guild member who plays with 4 different healers on every class (2 of them the same just a different faction! :D). Speaking of which, if any 16-man Imperial guilds want to recruit on Pot5 >>...

 

In all, every guild should feel good about their accomplishments. 8-man guilds should be happy they have downed content and try to aim for that 16-man group, while 16-man guilds should realize that 8-man guilds are able to enjoy the content like anyone else and shouldn't look down on someone's skill level because they are "not doing the instance in 16-man."

 

I wish everyone good luck in downing the instance, and honestly, my competition comes from the Pot5 server as a whole downing the content before everyone else on other servers! :D Ha, but that's just me. Anyways I hope everyone can still have fun with this, without letting competition think they are better than anyone else. Everyone is very skilled who does this and I am sure nobody is better than anyone else in that respect, so be proud you are even doing this and ABLE to do this in the first place, regardless of what you run it on as this difficulty is not for public made groups in any fashion.

 

Anyways, there's my long tale on the matter. Heh, I ramble.

Edited by OriginalTomoka
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Our guild has done both 8m and 16m NiM EC (we have 4 distinct raid groups, 3 of which are 8m teams... roughly 50 active progression raiders give or take).

 

50 progression raiders?! In this game? Whoah, thumbs up, we can barely force 8 people to get online when NEW content comes, WTB server transfers asap.

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To BW/EA:

 

Either increase the 8 man difficulty - 10 guilds cleared it in under 3 days,

or decrease the 16 man difficulty - 2 clears of Tanks and no clears of Kephess.

 

Personally, I'd suggest increasing the 8 man difficulty, I'm 1/4 NiM EC and thought that NiM Zorn & Toth were a letdown:(

 

Is NiM EC Kephess a step up from the Drouk Brothers? Someone in Astral described him as being very well tuned on 8 man. I'm curious if anyone with 4/4 agrees.

Edited by AshlaBoga
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Kephess NiM 8 man is finely tuned, in my opinion. In order to kill those two-warrior packs efficiently and destroy the walker in three attempts you need to push your dps to the utmost limit, nothing short of BiS gear from TFB HM is required. The last phase is finally no joke when it comes to staying alive and staying focused, the problem I personally had in HM is that I was almost always double ressing the tanks (one battle ress and then stealth ress), meaning there was a lot of room for error, now this is not the case - tank being pulled while having breath of the masters debuff plus cleave = oneshot, then Kephess starts some crazy nightmare AoE killing everyone in the raid.

 

It's still underwhelming for the final boss of this so-called nightmare mode (they could've added a lot more mechanics and made things a lot more interesting ... for example, the two droids with railshot are EXACTLY the same, unless I'm missing something), but at least it's a step up. No more screwing around with killing the warriors, slacking on dps when walker is down and, especially, with the tanks coordinating and taunting off each other perfectly in the very final phase.

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The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

 

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close :(. It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

 

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.

 

Why is 8man easier?

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To BW/EA:

 

Either increase the 8 man difficulty - 10 guilds cleared it in under 3 days,

or decrease the 16 man difficulty - 2 clears of Tanks and no clears of Kephess.

 

Personally, I'd suggest increasing the 8 man difficulty, I'm 1/4 NiM EC and thought that NiM Zorn & Toth were a letdown:(

 

Is NiM EC Kephess a step up from the Drouk Brothers? Someone in Astral described him as being very well tuned on 8 man. I'm curious if anyone with 4/4 agrees.

 

The 1 and 3rd boss fights are a very straight forward, with the tanks being a tough enrage timer with failry simple differences in the mechaincs (with almost none if u time the DPS right). Kephis however is another matter - is a very very tough fight with a lot of working out to do - with the 2nd and final phases being particlaury hard.

 

I would persoanlly like to see Zorn and Toth and the minefiles difficlty ramped up a lot, while the other 2 fights I think are about right in terms of difficulty.

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Minefield was amazingly unimpressive in 8m, we wiped on Vorgath at 30% the first time due to underestimating turret damage and did it the second time.

 

Frankly it and drouks are little more than sticking to the same routine as hm.

 

Why is 8man easier?

 

Because you don't have to find 16 players who know their stuff every time you want to raid.

Edited by Gyronamics
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no offence to some of you saying you have noticed this recently, however its always been like this, 16man content since release is really not worth the hassle, its not tuned properly at all and neva has been. and this is from someone that had everything cleared except NiM EV in January. (NiM EV was not doable till the mind traps were patched)

 

we were going to go 16 man but after testing it out it was just not reasonable to ask the guys to do it. so we did 2x 8man instead.

 

bragging rights are the only reason to do 16man, and as we dont give a crap what people think we will stick to 8man untill they grow a brain and sort 16man out.

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no offence to some of you saying you have noticed this recently, however its always been like this, 16man content since release is really not worth the hassle, its not tuned properly at all and neva has been. and this is from someone that had everything cleared except NiM EV in January. (NiM EV was not doable till the mind traps were patched)

 

we were going to go 16 man but after testing it out it was just not reasonable to ask the guys to do it. so we did 2x 8man instead.

 

bragging rights are the only reason to do 16man, and as we dont give a crap what people think we will stick to 8man untill they grow a brain and sort 16man out.

 

Yeah, but if you've been doing 16 man Ops progression recently you'd have noticed that the gap which previously I'd say was 15%, has now increased to about 40% :rolleyes::eek::rolleyes:

 

NiM EV and KP were easy mode compared to HM 16 Man TfB and NiM EC is a step beyond even that. The difference you noticed before is WAY larger than when you stopped doing 16 mans.

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Overall I feel that Nightmare EC is a letdown in 8m and even in 16m to an extent. The only fight that seems almost appropriate to be labeled nightmare is kephess.

Toth and Zorn - a little more health and dmg with a baradium poisoning debuff that ticks for 3.5k dmg but can be removed by using a medpac. Really bioware you thought that would make the fight challenging? It's a loot pinata way too easy and not worthy of being called nightmare mode.

Tanks - okay so DD/incinerates happen more often and now 1 mob gets a jetpack explosion when he dies to destroy the shield. Still an easy fight and the whole add exploding is easily countered by having a tank pull the mob out or by having a sniper knock it out and away from shields. Really not a nightmare at least in 8m 16m is apparently a bit rougher but still not worthy of nightmare mode.

Colonel "here is your free loot" Vorgath - An absolute joke in nightmare mode. Even easier than HM since he no longer even casts overloads. The orbital strike dmg on the defuser is a joke and the increased dmg in final phase is pretty much a joke. Thanks for the free loot drops bioware. Definitely not worthy of nightmare mode title.

Kephess- rail shot droids the same...so meh...I love that you make us use an interupt rotation in first phase on droids. I like what you did with adding an extra warrior on the trando adds shield phase makes dps have to pay attention and be spot on. the dmg that kephess does is pretty good, but the pulling in the tank with breath on it actually makes the fight slightly easier. It's actually a decent fight, but could be better to offer a real challenge in 8m though it sounds like 16m is providing adequate challenge as still no guilds have cleared it.

 

For being promised that we would see completely new and different mechanics and a difficulty level that only the best of the guilds would be able to clear I feel extremely ripped off. It feels pretty much like NMM EV and KP...10% more hps and dmg. I really hope bioware steps it up with NMM TFB or that they just stop even bothering with these attempts at nightmare.

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Really not a nightmare at least in 8m 16m is apparently a bit rougher but still not worthy of nightmare mode.

 

Seriously, try NiM tanks and tell me how close you get. You'll learn things about pushing your guild to the limit that you never thought you'd need to do as far as specifics. As far as how bioware is doing, I think the most we can ask for is steps in the right direction. The fact that we'll, as a community, most likely make it to the 3rd week of progression with bosses still alive is a credit to them. I think the biggest question now is less about how difficult NiM EC is and more about when NiM TFB and/or operation #5 is coming out. That will dictate how many people/guilds keep going (as far as ops at least).

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Out of curiosity, i was wondering how many 16 man guilds are proactively trying to clear NiM EC, and how many 8 man guilds as well, and what is the ratio between them?

 

A rough estimate from The Harbringer would be two 16 man guilds (one that i know have lost a few members since since the start of 1.4), and at least fifteen 8 man guilds. I am not aware that either of the two 16 man guilds are putting in a large amount of pulls (they seem to be more casual if you look at the dates for their TFB clears, compared to other 16 man guilds), while the one guild that has cleared 8 man put in 3 to 4 hours a night with multiple different people to get it down.

 

What i am getting at is the fact that no one has cleared 16 man EC doesnt mean it is harder then 8 man which has been cleared by 12 different guilds. It just means that there is far greater amount of 8 man guilds in the game, and that the success rate within the operation is probably equal for 16 man and 8 man, and furthermore if we had twice the amount of 16 man guilds active we would of seen a full 16 man clear already.

 

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong, and that there is a large amount of 16 man guilds in the game atm that trying to push the new content 4 to 6 nights a week.

 

On a sidenote i agree that the 1st and 3rd fight in EC NIM, is rather weak, the 2nd fight is just a tight dps check... nothing else. Most of Kephess' new mechanics are more or less things preventing guilds from cheesing out the encounter and probably most likely should of been in HM actually...the dps and heal checks are a bit more steep... but it is pretty much a fight that requires 95-99% execution of everyone, which is somewhat rare for swtor.

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Seriously, try NiM tanks and tell me how close you get. You'll learn things about pushing your guild to the limit that you never thought you'd need to do as far as specifics. As far as how bioware is doing, I think the most we can ask for is steps in the right direction. The fact that we'll, as a community, most likely make it to the 3rd week of progression with bosses still alive is a credit to them. I think the biggest question now is less about how difficult NiM EC is and more about when NiM TFB and/or operation #5 is coming out. That will dictate how many people/guilds keep going (as far as ops at least).

 

Agree. The issue I have with the Firebrand/Stormcaller fight on 16-man NiM is that it requires too much perfection to down the boss. While I love having a fight that is challenging, there is a major difference between a challenge and perfection; the latter seems a little silly if you ask me.

 

From some of the 8-man videos I have watched, I have seen players getting hit by Mortar Volley shots and recovering fine. I have seen shields go down early, DPS take a cone from Stormcaller while jumping back on the boss; all of it seems to be recovered fine. In the 16-man fights, maybe, I suppose maybe, if you are lucky enough you can survive that one mistake, but highly unlikely. Getting hit by anything when you aren't a Tank is more surely a one shot, and that is what makes the encounter just unrealistic in my opinion, but who knows I guess. :confused:

Edited by OriginalTomoka
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Agree. The issue I have with the Firebrand/Stormcaller fight on 16-man NiM is that it requires too much perfection to down the boss. While I love having a fight that is challenging, there is a major difference between a challenge and perfection; the latter seems a little silly if you ask me.

 

From some of the 8-man videos I have watched, I have seen players getting hit by Mortar Volley shots and recovering fine. I have seen shields go down early, DPS take a cone from Stormcaller while jumping back on the boss; all of it seems to be recovered fine. In the 16-man fights, maybe, I suppose maybe, if you are lucky enough you can survive that one mistake, but highly unlikely. Getting hit by anything when you aren't a Tank is more surely a one shot, and that is what makes the encounter just unrealistic in my opinion, but who knows I guess. :confused:

 

As someone who took stormcallers cone regularly at the beginning (im a noob), it CANNOT be recovered from. Shield down? cant be recovered from. Hit by Mortar Volley? someone's gonna die. While some mistakes can be survived, having 16 possible mistake makers just makes it so much harder compared to having 8 that can recover from mistakes.

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Seriously, try NiM tanks and tell me how close you get. You'll learn things about pushing your guild to the limit that you never thought you'd need to do as far as specifics. As far as how bioware is doing, I think the most we can ask for is steps in the right direction. The fact that we'll, as a community, most likely make it to the 3rd week of progression with bosses still alive is a credit to them. I think the biggest question now is less about how difficult NiM EC is and more about when NiM TFB and/or operation #5 is coming out. That will dictate how many people/guilds keep going (as far as ops at least).

 

I have killed nightmare tanks with relative ease. It is not hard. The only encounter that is somewhat tuned to nightmare standards would be kephess.

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I have killed nightmare tanks with relative ease. It is not hard. The only encounter that is somewhat tuned to nightmare standards would be kephess.

 

Is this 16 man nightmare, cause I think he is talking about 16 man (which is way harder than 8 man).

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