It seems the merger has been good and bad for GSF. On one hand, the queue times are greatly reduced and the variety of pilots is greatly increased. But on the other hand, there has been an emergence of groups that are entering together with communications (voice) that are dominating the battle. It is getting so bad that non-grouped pilots are getting sniped at the spawn point, which is no fun.

So here is my solution:

1) No groups can enter together just like unranked PVP

2) Because the pool of pilots seems to be small, always combine factions like the Odessan PVP arena so grouping becomes more difficult. This will also keep the battles to be more even and potentially decrease pop times.

Thank you for your time

It's a team game, find a team.

(2) is a great idea though.

The groups that kill everyone aren't strong because voice, they're strong because they've played this game a lot together.

I won't say good, because people have learned not to queue while they're flying. It's usually not very much fun and involves being farmed on the spawn because everyone dies that fast.

Edit because incomplete: And throwing together a group good enough to fight the first one thins out the newbies on the other side, because flying against the premade that was assembled to go against the first premade isn't very much fun either.

I haven't been able to play much since the mergers, but I've heard this has become a frequent occurrence.

One other suggestion: join and utilize the GSF Discord to find a group. There are a lot of GSFers in there, many more than here (because the population includes non-subs too). Each server has its own channel, so it's pretty easy to drop a "lfg" and quickly find some teammates. You still may not come on top versus a really strong premade, but at least you'll improve your chances.

yeah... i hear you... i come from a hinterland-server (vanjervalis chain / german) where no GSF would open since we were an RP Server... since the merge i joined GSF ( and i m having a blast, even when being ganked at the spawnpoint) and have noticed exactly that.... it s always the same group of elite aces farming everyone else... this has led to a rapid decline of new pilots imperial-side, because the frustration factor is extremely high in players (i somehow managed to stay at it and start getting better now, but far from good)...

Maybe an i-level for ship-queues would be nice, like a maxed out T5 ship cant or won t be queued with say a T1 or 2, so pilots with a lower skill/ship-level will always be able to compete with similarly strong opponents instead of demi-gods in T5 Jurgorans who gank the skies

yeah... i hear you... i come from a hinterland-server (vanjervalis chain / german) where no GSF would open since we were an RP Server... since the merge i joined GSF ( and i m having a blast, even when being ganked at the spawnpoint) and have noticed exactly that.... it s always the same group of elite aces farming everyone else... this has led to a rapid decline of new pilots imperial-side, because the frustration factor is extremely high in players (i somehow managed to stay at it and start getting better now, but far from good)...

 

Maybe an i-level for ship-queues would be nice, like a maxed out T5 ship cant or won t be queued with say a T1 or 2, so pilots with a lower skill/ship-level will always be able to compete with similarly strong opponents instead of demi-gods in T5 Jurgorans who gank the skies

There is a system which places players of roughly the same gear in the same matches. However, the system is extremely flawed.

Here's a rough description of how it works.

1. It is per character, not account.

2. It considers the one ship with the highest "combined level of components" (for a lack of a better term).

3. It also considers the number of matches played total (or number of victories total, not sure).

4. It always puts groups in front of the queue - disregarding everything of the above.

This means that some players who played/won a lot more matches than everyone else will usually have a longer queue time because the system can't find a match. These people get skipped and then group up to actually get an invite. Usually likeminded players group up moreoften, and if theres 2+ people who really like GSF, there's a good chance they will almost always fly together.

This directly ties into the next problem. These very active players who also need to group up to get invites usually have a lot more experience than the average player. They usually play on "a whole nother level" and while it seems like they're winning because of voice chat, they usually are just better.

Obviously this doesn't cover every situation, but during the time I was most active in GSF, I always grouped up with others, we met in voice chat, but only used it for entertainment and nothing game related.

Maybe an i-level for ship-queues would be nice, like a maxed out T5 ship cant or won t be queued with say a T1 or 2, so pilots with a lower skill/ship-level will always be able to compete with similarly strong opponents instead of demi-gods in T5 Jurgorans who gank the skies

Veterans in stock ships will mop the floor with people who don't know what they are doing. A single veteran in a partially upgraded ship is more than many teams can handle flying against.

People with low skill levels cannot compete against veterans because the veterans know what they're doing.

"Players" who make no effort to learn the game and/or who cannot execute basic game tasks are what lead to the uncompetitive blowouts that fill up scoreboards at an alarming rate. When the majority of a team cannot do at least 10k damage in a match, that team is extremely likely to lose.

New pilots need to work on basic skills like:

• firing blasters when in range
  
• locking a missile
  
• learning which satellite to support
  
• not flying in a straight line while being shot to death
  
• picking the key upgrades to get first
  
• choosing an appropriate Copilot skill
  

_

There's more but that is a start. Learning is half the battle. The other half is doing, and it will require some pain as the new pilot grows in skill and determination to fight through it, but it's very possible.

I think any pilot that sets their mind to it can become a contributor that helps their team within a week of starting GSF.

They just have to commit to doing it.

- Despon

On my server, it's always stacked Rep groups/guilds in Teamspeak versus random lone-wolf Imps.

Reps win 99% of all games.

And most guilds don't want to do GSF on Impside.

Sad story.

There are several solutions to the problem.

The easiest way is to solve the problem by matchmaking. The matchmaker always faces a premade with another. That worked quite well in GW2, but there are certainly 50x more people playing PVP there than here playing GSF. Here in SWTOR I doubt that the problem can be solved by matchmaking without long waiting times.

Prohibition of Premades: In GW2 it is now so in the Rated, Arenanet has let vote among all PVP players, 80% were for the ban. (btw: I voted against) Then you need a gamemode for the group players. They also want to play and have the right to do so. Here are not enough players for a separate group mode.

A handicap system. Similar to golf, pre-mades or single players with very good scores get a handicap. This is the only thing that could work without long waiting times and everyone can continue to play as they want.

All of those ideas are really bad, and even if they weren't, none apply to GSF without absolutely wrecking it.

This thread makes it sound like team queue is (a) new and (b) undesirable. In fact, it's been around since the game launched, and is clearly incentivized by everything from the group queue button itself, to the team size, to the game goals, to the complementary ships. Pretending that this is something new from the mergers is really odd, but I guess if you were on a totally dead server previously with pops as rare as they were then, that drove all the good teams to bigger servers long ago, you'd be surprised about it.

The easiest way is to solve the problem by matchmaking. The matchmaker always faces a premade with another. That worked quite well in GW2, but there are certainly 50x more people playing PVP there than here playing GSF. Here in SWTOR I doubt that the problem can be solved by matchmaking without long waiting times.

I'd like this one (or/and the "Odessen mixed teams"-one), but as you pointed out, there would be the need for a timer who'll let the premade play against random players if during a certain time period no opposing premade queued. And maybe some "good premades" would then rather choose the way of "sync-queueing" to kill random ppl instead of facing some real opposition from another premade.

The easiest way to have some sort of team balancing imho remains "self regulation" by dominating pilots and I've seen some of them actually do that - kudos to them (others not so much, but hey, it's not against the rules, so ... although they might put some thought into long-term implications of their behavior for the "health of the game" concerning GSF ...).

All of those ideas are really bad, and even if they weren't, none apply to GSF without absolutely wrecking it.

Dear Verain,

this is a game, not a competitive sport. This is about everyone having as much fun as possible and not about some people being able to satisfy their EGO.

If a few people rob the majority of the fun, it must be limited.

With anti elitist greetings your Magira. ^^

this is a game, not a competitive sport. This is about everyone having as much fun as possible and not about some people being able to satisfy their EGO.

The funny thing is, GSF is structured just like an e-sport, except for the lack of a ranked ladder/league.

Detailed personal stats are kept and are available to every player to examine in self-reflection on what they are capable of and where they can improve.

A scoreboard is presented after every match showing a lengthy list of performance metrics that are sortable and even deeper information is available on the Performance Tab of the interface.

Four-pilot squads are supported, and there are many positives for running them and component interactions that benefit from them.

Players benefit greatly from practice and teamwork, even just in the sense of 'I know where to be and how to get there.' There are few limits to the skill someone can develop through perseverance and drive.

These are not the markings of a non-sport casual game. The only reason GSF doesn't have ranked play is that the devs got shut off from properly continuing the game's development when it was at its peak (2014) and it likely will never recover from that. We have a GSF right now that is far more mechanically balanced than ever and yet some of the worst quality of matches ever because the majority of the playerbase is terrible at the game through either willful ignorance, indifference, or lack of experience.

they might put some thought into long-term implications of their behavior for the "health of the game" concerning GSF ...).

The 'health of the game' is entirely dependent on ongoing developer support. GSF survived being proclaimed dead for two years plus, go ahead and search it on the forum. GSF has more people calling time-of-death than a primetime medical drama. The undead zombie GSF shambles on and on and on.

You know how to stop veteran premades from laying waste to your teams? Learn to play the game. Encourage others to learn to play the game. There aren't so many veteran premades around that one cannot learn and practice GSF. It is likely there are two or fewer veteran premades across all five servers playing GSF at any given time.

And what about the new / inexperienced people who are on the same side as the veteran premades? Why do they continue to have a line that looks like 0k 2a 5d 2000dam? They have an open playground to go to satellites, take potshots at people, and otherwise benefit from the premade running roughshod over the opposition.

Here is the message people need to embrace in order for there to be fewer garbage games of GSF:

You can succeed if you learn and practice.

If you do those two things, you will first become competent, then you will push past that and find an area where you can maximize your personal skills to the best. Unbalanced matches vs. strong teams are very frustrating, but they are not every match on every server. Your personal performance can and will improve if you keep playing, seek out learning resources, and remain dedicated... and if enough people adopt that attitude, balance will rise because there will be a greater pool of competent players to draw from, just like there was in the past.

- Despon

And what about the new / inexperienced people who are on the same side as the veteran premades? Why do they continue to have a line that looks like 0k 2a 5d 2000dam? They have an open playground to go to satellites, take potshots at people, and otherwise benefit from the premade running roughshod over the opposition.

You're kind of answering your own question here. In these steamroll matches, the vets usually swarm and farm the enemy team so quickly that friendly newbies barely have time to arrive and line up a shot. I have been both guilty of that, while also having been the person that is running around trying to find something to shoot because the opposing team is getting farmed so quickly by my teammates.

In these steamroll matches, the vets usually swarm and farm the enemy team so quickly that friendly newbies barely have time to arrive and line up a shot.

I think there is an important distinction to be made between the various breeds of pilots who get poor results.

_

• Noobs
  Actual for-real new pilots who have a desire and intent to learn how to play. They often perform poorly because they are still learning, which is entirely acceptable. If they are making a legit effort to perform to the best of their ability and learn what is preventing them from doing so, I will never have a problem with that.
  _
  
• Indifferents
  Ticks, AFK'ers, CXP farmers, Conquistadors, passengers, those who have no intent to actually participate in a meaningful way because they are getting what they want out of the match regardless of their performance. It is a means to an end for them, not a thing they do because they enjoy it.
  _
  
• Trolls
  Self-destructors, Ops-chat ranters, people who want you to suffer because you chose to play the game regardless of whether you are on their team or not (or sometimes, because you are on their team).
  

_

I really do not believe that the legions of people who fill up the bottom of scoreboards with sub-10k damage totals and single digit shooting percentages are true new pilots who want to learn how to play. It is so easy to get past that stage of development with just a little effort. Practically every match, scoreboards are 60% full of people who can't shoot and don't know where to go. This is basic, basic game stuff.

It is my opinion that the vast majority of the problem is coming from people who are indifferent to their success or failure in the game, and have no reason to behave otherwise because they are rewarded in the parts of the game they care about either way.

- Despon

I think there is an important distinction to be made between the various breeds of pilots who get poor results.

_

• Noobs
  Actual for-real new pilots who have a desire and intent to learn how to play. They often perform poorly because they are still learning, which is entirely acceptable. If they are making a legit effort to perform to the best of their ability and learn what is preventing them from doing so, I will never have a problem with that.
  _
  
• Indifferents
  Ticks, AFK'ers, CXP farmers, Conquistadors, passengers, those who have no intent to actually participate in a meaningful way because they are getting what they want out of the match regardless of their performance. It is a means to an end for them, not a thing they do because they enjoy it.
  _
  
• Trolls
  Self-destructors, Ops-chat ranters, people who want you to suffer because you chose to play the game regardless of whether you are on their team or not (or sometimes, because you are on their team).
  

_

I really do not believe that the legions of people who fill up the bottom of scoreboards with sub-10k damage totals and single digit shooting percentages are true new pilots who want to learn how to play. It is so easy to get past that stage of development with just a little effort. Practically every match, scoreboards are 60% full of people who can't shoot and don't know where to go. This is basic, basic game stuff.

 

It is my opinion that the vast majority of the problem is coming from people who are indifferent to their success or failure in the game, and have no reason to behave otherwise because they are rewarded in the parts of the game they care about either way.

 

- Despon

If you spend enough games getting facerolled on your spawn, it's really, really easy to think you'll never git gud, or at the very least, that there's no point to spawning or trying to engage the enemy.

That's just the pattern that emerges in all PvP games after a while. We don't keep real newbies because they do care about getting good and the game environment of real players is the one you always get from a game really late in its PvP game lifetime. The CXP farmers are here until something else gives more CXP or UCs, and the trolls are just trolls.

If you spend enough games getting facerolled on your spawn, it's really, really easy to think you'll never git gud, or at the very least, that there's no point to spawning or trying to engage the enemy.

And yet that is not what I see in a very large number of matches I have played across four of the five servers recently.

Many, many matches I have been in are slow-paced affairs where people fly around, often seemingly at random, making bad choices and executing those choices poorly. There are ample matches that are not against premades where people play the game in slow-motion and exhibit no tactical awareness. These people have not been demoralized by premades, you can count the number of premades flying these days on one hand. They just have little to no idea what they are doing, and/or don't care.

I've been in 1000-1 dom matches where there was no premade. All you need is a few competent people on one side and that's all it takes. No VOIP is needed. No coordination is really needed. If your side has a couple people who know what they are doing and can hit a target or lock a missile, it is often an insurmountable obstacle for the average team of random players.

GSF needs more people with basic competence to stop these garbage matches from being the norm.

- Despon

And yet that is not what I see in a very large number of matches I have played across four of the five servers recently.

 

Many, many matches I have been in are slow-paced affairs where people fly around, often seemingly at random, making bad choices and executing those choices poorly. There are ample matches that are not against premades where people play the game in slow-motion and exhibit no tactical awareness. These people have not been demoralized by premades, you can count the number of premades flying these days on one hand. They just have little to no idea what they are doing, and/or don't care.

 

I've been in 1000-1 dom matches where there was no premade. All you need is a few competent people on one side and that's all it takes. No VOIP is needed. No coordination is really needed. If your side has a couple people who know what they are doing and can hit a target or lock a missile, it is often an insurmountable obstacle for the average team of random players.

 

GSF needs more people with basic competence to stop these garbage matches from being the norm.

 

- Despon

The pattern I've noticed on Satele is something like this:

Imp conquest/CXP farmers flying around not even trying. Pubs farm them. Careless pubs who didn't think protorps worked both ways. Of those imps, the top 4 were a group which cared. One was a bomber, one was a conc/protorp/quad Quell, and I'm not sure what the other two were doing. The only reason the pubs flew so they could be shot down so easily is because they were used to mostly target drones, and apparently weren't used to dealing with seriously threatening incoming fire (one of the Clarions on the actually flew with interdiction drive out in the open and was in the top 4. If that's the pattern, they aren't up against newbies trying to get better, because, after a while, newbies trying to get better would pose a threat. Or maybe most of the newbies trying to get better just fly pub to avoid being getting chased around by half the pub team all match because everything else just dies.

And again (except that was a pub wargame and those aren't protorps).

Then Drak's group gets on, people say so in GSF chat, and usually the people who aren't just CXP farmers quit queueing. Except, once we got a group together and scraped a 1000/950 dom win, but it went immediately one-sided against us and there wasn't any contest any more. Trying to pull half a team of dead weight against them didn't seem like very much fun, so we just went off to play not-GSF (or bed because it was late).

The funny thing is, GSF is structured just like an e-sport, except for the lack of a ranked ladder/league.

 

Just out of curiosity. What is your favorite e-sports team?

3rd party viewing of both teams simultaneously is an absolute must for something to even be considered an e-sport.

I don't have a favorite e-sport team. Come to think of it, though, I used to like watching PsyStarcraft and a couple other SC2 players. I admit, I'm more a fan of regular old sports.

I will say, though, that a 3rd party observer mode is something I've wanted in GSF for a long time, along with replays of matches. From the perspective of one who produces videos for both teaching and entertainment purposes, such tools would be invaluable, and would make for really excellent editing material. Diagramming strategies with views from multiple angles, being able to see from particular players' perspectives... it would be fantastic. Just the ability to illustrate how situations could be handled differently or why a player was able to pull off a particular move would be great for learning.

Setting aside budgetary concerns, what would stop this from happening in GSF? As an e-sports enthusiast, if such an observer system and ranked play were in place, do you see any reason why GSF couldn't succeed in that realm?

- Despon

It'd be tricky without some sort of ship path tracing function and maybe window or other UI enhancement to show things like cooldowns, hits, etc.

A basic camera view would just be tiny little dots moving around most of the time. You'd need a full blown spectator UI that feeds the viewer information sort of like the way the player UI does.

Like some sort of combination of using Tacview to review DCS World dogfights and a SWTOR/MMORPG type UI.

It would be really great though. I'd love that feature, especially if you could watch in progress matches while in queue and get booted from spectator if a match of your own popped.

GSF as an eSport? ...

- insanely small playerbase (compared to other eSports titles) - as was already mentioned with a "handful of premades/teams" and including a lot of ppl who just want to "leech" some CXP

- "no one cares" (besides us ) - so why should someone now? -> too old (now) to be new

- millions (or - c'mon - at least thousands) of Dollars to be made?! ...

- no "observer/spectator mode"

- still some balancing issues (e.g. EMP), although this would probably be the least concern of all the things mentioned ...

Nah, this ship has sailed a long time ago, even SWTOR PvP is miles away (having a "Leaderboard" and "Seasons" and "Stats" after a match doesn't help when the balancing between classes is an absolute joke, takes devs years/several months to try to do something about it and therefore practically no one takes it seriously - and balancing is absolute key for this kind of eSport). Don't get me wrong, personally I appreciate GSF the way it is - so, no offense, but considering it as a (potential) eSport (material) is frankly delusional.

GSF as an eSport? ...

 

- insanely small playerbase (compared to other eSports titles) - as was already mentioned with a "handful of premades/teams" and including a lot of ppl who just want to "leech" some CXP

- "no one cares" (besides us ) - so why should someone now? -> too old (now) to be new

I should have specified I was speaking purely on the game's mechanical merits, not in regards to the current playerbase. The people playing now are a symptom of SWTOR on the whole, not GSF.

- millions (or - c'mon - at least thousands) of Dollars to be made?! ...

- no "observer/spectator mode"

I don't particularly care about the prizes, it's a game that is set up for sport-like analysis and play, and would benefit tremendously from an observer/spectator mode.

Don't get me wrong, personally I appreciate GSF the way it is - so, no offense, but considering it as a (potential) eSport (material) is frankly delusional.

Divorced from the factors that are not part of gameplay, why do you feel this is so?

GSF has everything in its gameplay that you would need for a compelling, audience-friendly viewing experience. It has...

• considerable depth in the choices presented for ship builds
  
• greatly consequential choices to be made in team composition
  
• many strategic options for a team to approach any of the given maps
  
• adjusting tactics and ship selection on the fly in matches can win or lose the match
  
• ample material for analysis and play-by-play
  

_

What there says it's delusional to think it has potential as an e-sport?

When I think 'casual PvP' I think of the space combat in SW:Battlefront 1. No depth, no real tactics, very little choice. From what I've read, BF2 looks graphically amazing but really doesn't add depth, certainly not to the level of GSF.

- Despon